hopeful4

According to the article, "Mayor: $130M to revamp NYC jails for mentally ill by Jake Pearson w/the Assoc Press.

I also read on MSN today that the number of drug overdose deaths doubled last year.

Wow. Substance abuse and addiction are taking over. I knew they were, but I guess I was not aware to the extent.

Sad, very very sad. I wish I knew the answers. Honestly, so much burden is being put on the states to take care of this that I don't know how they can possibly find the money to do so.

53500

The obligation of society to care for those who can't (or won't) care for themselves is a very hard thing to put into practice. Personally I believe that we who are fortunate enough to have something to give to those who need help, should give it.

But where and how do you (meaning society, the states, whatever) draw the line? How do you choose who gets helped and who doesn't? The resources available will never be as much as the need. I don't really like the "let the government deal with it" answer, with its red tape and potential for abuse and corruption. But I don't have another answer.

Stung

Oh yeah, you mean like Prop 47 that passed in California last month that allowed a lot of people in jail on drug charges to be released? Well round these parts we just let them mingle with the sane, non-criminal folks because we cannot afford to keep them locked up. Prop. 47 jolts landscape of California justice system - LA Times

Then I read an article today about how we're wasting resources to teach inmates in San Quentin how to code. Someone tell me why we're teaching the most violent and grotesque offenders in our society how to do program coding?! San Francisco Nonprofit The Last Mile Teaches San Quentin Inmates How to Code | NBC Bay Area

I don't know why I bother reading the news anymore.

Oh yes I do. Stories like this.

Story behind the hug between cop, boy at Ferguson rally - CNN.com

desypete

i love the term sane non criminal folk tone you use

i am a sane non criminal type but i wasn't always a sane non criminal type, so i dont know what bracket you would put me in ? how do you judge someone ? on what they have done or what they do ?

lillamy

Some of my best friends have served time.
No, I'm serious.
I definitely don't want violent criminals living next door to me. But the judicial system is far from perfect. There are criminals walking free who shouldn't be, and totally harmless pot smokers who are serving time simply because they weren't bright enough to weasel their ways out of charges.

I don't like that we throw people in jail simply for drug use. That's insane to me. Especially since all of us know how incredibly harmful alcohol abuse can be -- but you don't get sent to jail simply for being an alcoholic.

I also don't believe government should do MORE in this area. I've seen remarkable results from non-profits working with addicts -- usually run by former addicts -- and I'd much rather have those more available than throw people in jail because they have a disease and chose the "wrong" drug.

Florence

Ditto.

And job training is really important so folks have a trade and skill other than petty crime to pay the bills. It's a social good.

hopeful4

It's such a hard topic b/c as someone said, the need will always outweigh the resources. So how do we, as a society, do something about it? I wish I had the answer.

I also don't think it's ok to let drug charges slide just b/c we don't have the money to house the criminal, however doing so is breaking the bank. Why should states have to accept that financial burden? Because ultimately, drugs are a crime. If they are legalized, our society goes up in smoke.

Desy, you are a success story, thank God. I wish there were more.

Stung, thank you for that. My sister is one of those cops in Ferguson, has been since August. I wish the media would choose to show some of the positives instead of fueling the fire.

Thank you all for your input and letting me ramble on. Wish I knew how to rehabilitate everyone who needs it, regardless of the issue they have, the race they are, or where they are located.

53500

I agree with this. The question is always, who pays for it? Probably the addicts' families. But if the families can't or won't, then who?

I don't have an answer although this topic has always interested me for every group of people who are not able to help themselves. People who are ill for any reason - mental illness, accidents, birth defects, any serious illness and on and on. If the support of family and friends isn't there, then how does a compassionate society help them?

I guess it's always in my mind, "there but for the grace of God go I".

desypete

lets put it this way

when i was 23 years old i was in and out of court every other month charged with drunk an disorderly, assault, drink drive public order offences, criminal damage

all were done thanks to me being plastered drunk

i was a public nusense rather than a grade a villian had i have not drunk i would never have been charged with anything let alone go to prison as i have never broken the law sober i dont even speed

i went into aa at 23 and stayed there for 3 years and i left but managed to stay sober for 15 years

never once during those sober years did i ever have the police at me door as i said when sober i wouldnt do anything wrong to warrent police or court action

there is a huge gap of 18 years with no offenses recored against me then of course i started drinking again and within a few years of drinking again i again started to old merry go round of offending

even the police got to know me personally as the local village drunk who was a dam pest to them

back to prison i went for short stays only to be released again and everytime i swore i would get off the drink when i get out as its no fun in prison when you wake up the next day trying to remember what your there for etc

only when i went back to aa again did my life turn around and now i have been over 10 years sober and guess what ?

i have no more convictions i have no police or court actions it all stops as the drink isnt being taken anymore

there are plenty of others in prison who are like me dont get me wrong as people should go to prison if there given chances to correct there ways like i was but i just didn't do anything about it until it hurt enough

hence i help run prison meetings for aa hoping that we can direct people into aa when they come out of prison rather then them going into a boozer to celebrate being free but only to end up going back again as the drink will take them back again

we have some success i went to one lads wedding the other week who 5 years ago was in prison, we got him into aa when he got out and he has never looked back since 5 years sober he is and now married and got a job

i love seeing this sort of success in people and its happening all the time somewhere out there in this big wide world people are turning there lives around

or we could just lock them up for ever and throw away the key that would at least guarentee they wouldnt offend again but they would have to stay in for life and we would need new prisons for all the new comers into the dark side who end up drinking to much in the future

lillamy

See, there's the rub. If you had gotten a good talking to by a long-term AA member back when you were a kid, maybe you could have avoided all those criminal charges?

And this makes me smile:
I have a good friend you'd like to meet -- his story is similar; he lost his family to alcohol and crime, but has turned his life around and now works for a non-profit that does exactly what you do: They run recovery meetings in prisons and jails; his wife runs an outreach arm to the families of incarcerated addicts, doing everything from driving them to Al-Anon and church to making sure their kids get Christmas presents.

There's so much good in people in this world, and there are organizations and individuals that channel that into the addict community. I have a lot of faith in them. And in you, Pete.

Thumper

IMO this is the result of shortsightedly not wanting to pay up front and then having to pay a whole lot at the back end.

If you read more into the statistics of who becomes the addicts that fill our jails you will find a very high correlation to FASD, ADHD, various LD's, various mental health issues. They didn't just wake up one day with issues - many times you can see it coming a mile (or years) away.

As a country we can decide to provider services and treatment when these people are young or we can wait until they are in jail - because that is where a shocking number of them end up.

But those kids and teens are only creating stress and turmoil for themselves and their families so society can close its eyes and refuse to pony up $$ and services. We'll wait until they create a problem for society - and then the costs are much higher, the damage is wider spread, and the outlooks much poorer. It's backwards.

lillamy

It's difficult, though, because a lot of times, as you point out, the problem originates with the FOO. And then you run into privacy issues. Like, for example, my state just nixed a law that would mandate any time a kid gets into trouble with the law or mental health care, the state CPS would do an evaluation of the family. And "gets into trouble with the law" would include an underage kid who is found smoking cigarettes.

It's not society's responsibility. It's the responsibility of individuals to seek out the help they need. Just like in AA and Al-Anon.

Thumper

ADHD, LD's, FASD, Mental Health issues, even addictions to some extent, are brain based differences that have a very real set of characteristics. Early treatment and consistent intervention throughout a child's education has a statistical and significant impact on adult outcomes. It isn't just about FOO dysfunction - although that can be part of it because genetics matter.

Might be a difference in philosophy so I won't belabor it after this post since this isn't really the right platform

I do think society has a responsibility for creating and investing in systems that result in increased success for all it's members if it wants to flourish. That costs money, resources, time, considerable investment in educational and mental health service programs etc. - and a willingness to invest it based on projected outcomes. Currently we invest based only on current outcomes, which is very short sited IMO. It produces less and costs more.

It is the same thing really with services in prisons - it is just further down the timeline. We can invest in increasing success when people are released, or we can keep paying when they come back.

That doesn't even touch on the cost to society of addictions, crime, etc. etc. that can't be counted in the services provided numbers.

Individuals are on the hook for utilizing the help available but society has to put it's money where it's mouth is to make sure the help is there. We've decided school is compulsory so for kids it is a little different.

thequest

I find this to be a cart-horse statistic. Did spending time dealing with the justice system start or amplify an existing behavior into an issue. Or do addicts and alkies commit that much crime. I think it's both. There will be no one answer.

Taking the prison out of the criminal who also abuses substances might not necessarily reduce crime.