Abuse
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Originally Posted by WMJ1012 
But here's a story of Real Recovery:
My AA sponsor lived with a woman who wasn't a drinker. She had sick sex conduct though, and slept with a lot of other people. My sponsor never knew where she had been or who she had been with when she came home. He tried to leave her many times. He couldn't. He always went back.
My sponsor kept saying to his sponsor, "I have to find a way to leave her for good! Look what she's doing to me! I can't take this anymore! 15 years of this!" My sponsor's sponsor said, "Marry her."
My sponsor said, "WHAT? You want me to MARRY THIS WOMAN? Get MORE stuck with this and reward her behavior and everything?" My sponsor's sponsor said again, "Marry her." So he did.
In marrying her, my sponsor started accepting her instead of fighting it all. She was who she was, a sick woman. He stopped getting emotional about what she did. He stopped thinking it had anything at all to do with him. He just stopped caring about it all. He started being calmer and just focusing on his own recovery.
When they were married a month he packed his stuff without anger, remorse, etc and left - effortlessly.
That is what the 12 Steps do.
My AA sponsor lived with a woman who wasn't a drinker. She had sick sex conduct though, and slept with a lot of other people. My sponsor never knew where she had been or who she had been with when she came home. He tried to leave her many times. He couldn't. He always went back.
My sponsor kept saying to his sponsor, "I have to find a way to leave her for good! Look what she's doing to me! I can't take this anymore! 15 years of this!" My sponsor's sponsor said, "Marry her."
My sponsor said, "WHAT? You want me to MARRY THIS WOMAN? Get MORE stuck with this and reward her behavior and everything?" My sponsor's sponsor said again, "Marry her." So he did.
In marrying her, my sponsor started accepting her instead of fighting it all. She was who she was, a sick woman. He stopped getting emotional about what she did. He stopped thinking it had anything at all to do with him. He just stopped caring about it all. He started being calmer and just focusing on his own recovery.
When they were married a month he packed his stuff without anger, remorse, etc and left - effortlessly.
That is what the 12 Steps do.
I have no idea what point that little story was intended to convey, but I do know that "sick sex conduct" is not the same as having a gun pointed at you, being strangled into unconsciousness, being raped, or being beaten beyond recognition.
dandylion put it very well: First things first. Safety first, and then spiritual growth. No one can grow spiritually when they are battered on a daily basis.
You seem to think everyone's job is to endure with serenity until God steps in and fixes the situation (which He will do, if we work our programs well). Well, God also has provided for victim advocates, police officers, prosecutors, shelters, hotlines, and other sources of support. And if we don't take advantage of those resources, because we are waiting for God to miraculously change our situation, then we are just like the guy in the sinking lifeboat who waves off the helicopters arriving to rescue him because his faith in God will save him.
I wonder what it is about your own situation that compels you to relentlessly advise others about a situation with which you apparently have no experience or knowledge. As you said, that's between you and your God, but please stop trying to make suggestions to people who are in abusive situations. Your advice could very well, as lillamy suggested, kill them.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,393
Originally Posted by WMJ1012
My sponsor's sponsor said again, "Marry her." So he did.
When they were married a month he packed his stuff without anger, remorse, etc and left - effortlessly.
That is what the 12 Steps do.
When they were married a month he packed his stuff without anger, remorse, etc and left - effortlessly.
That is what the 12 Steps do.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Originally Posted by WMJ1012
Actually the solution for all is in the Big Book of AA
Godspeed
WMJ
Godspeed
WMJ
The additional thing to take into consideration, of course, is that simply "leaving" without proper safety planning can increase the danger.
AA does not by any stretch advise that victims remain in abusive relationships.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 837
WMJ, you never said if you were in an abusive relationship. I have been and for a very long time. I could have written what Amy first wrote. I don't think someone can give advise who has never walked in their shoes. Give a listening ear and encouragement for them to find safety and help and anything else should be kept to oneself.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 837
WMJ, you never said if you were in an abusive relationship. I have been and for a very long time. I could have written what Amy first wrote. I don't think someone can give advise who has never walked in their shoes. Give a listening ear and encouragement for them to find safety and help and anything else should be kept to oneself.
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
The answers you find in the Big Book of AA are how to recover from alcoholism.
And neither does Alanon or any sane person or program.
Originally Posted by LexieCat
AA does not by any stretch advise that victims remain in abusive relationships.
And neither does Alanon or any sane person or program.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 94
I'm following this and 'that other thread' closely, and here's my two-pence worth. I love this forum, it has done a lot for me - I hope you guys know that by now. I am out of my relationship and yet have found in you a community of loving, caring people, and I would like to offer that same support to others. So, I keep in touch. Each situation is different, each experience unique in its context and intensity, and each decision about a way forward has to be a highly personal one. I try to respect that, and refrain from giving advice, restrict myself to sharing experience and anything that worked for me. I especially refrain from commenting on any situations that I have not or am not experiencing myself. BUT ....... although alcoholism is the thread that binds us, some of us are dealing with people who have other issues. Hammer reminds us of this with his readings. I know my abuse was not just alcohol related. Mine was an abusive husband - drunk or sober. My point is that if I were an abused newcomer to this forum, and saw a thread titled 'Abuse', I would head straight for it, and would be inspired by Amy's first post and the many later posters who echo that sentiment. By the time I'd reached the end of the thread as it stands now, I'd have been confused because these two threads started with great intentions but seemed to fall into a scrap. I can understand why that happens too in response to some posts. But didn't we come here to provide mutual support, to feel safe, to feel validated? I did anyway. Let's keep encouraging vulnerable people to drop in and stay. This forum was a lifeline for me! And I'm sure it is for others. Rant over, and once again, I thank you all, and especially you Amy for your initial post.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 303
I've said it before on SR, but I am so glad I found Al-Anon AFTER I left. I love Al-Anon but I believe I would have felt pressured to stay. I actually found that when I detached, he became even more emotionally abusive.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Pa
Posts: 4,872
Actually I am enjoying this debate that is going on. It shows people what DV victims do have to go through while trying to get out of a situation. It shows the blaming.
If I tried, I could not have figured out a more perfect way of saying this. Yes, God does help us, as Lexie pointed out that's why we have DV advocates, police, the courts, etc...
The thing I am mostly concerned about are some of the responses that are given that blame the person that is seeking help.
I don't go to AA or alanon, but I really thought the big book was about taking your own inventory. Not others inventory.
I do need to say that if I was looking for help and someone told me to stop being a victim, well I would have high tailed it out of there and run like a scared little rabbit.
I didn't know what was right and what was wrong. It wasn't felling good to me, my ex had already told me I was playing a victim, and that I should grow up, and do things the right way. The "right way" meant his way.
I wouldn't have been allowed to go to alanon. I couldn't just detach and walk away. He followed. There were many times in the cold winter that I locked myself in my car just to get away from him. My car was my bedroom. I slept there. I was afraid to go back into the house, and didn't have the money to leave.
I couldn't talk to my family and friends back then, he always played like he was such a terrific guy in front of them. My entire family was jealous of me because I had such a loving husband. I looked like I was the crazy person. I couldn't talk to my family then, I had to hide everything. I had to try to appear happy when I was around them, but I wasn't. I didn't want them telling me anymore that I appeared b!tchy. They never heard the things he said to me before we got to a party or after we left, and also during a party.
If someone does not have knowledge of what it is like living like this, then I would gently ask them to please not condemn us. We are trying to survive, we are trying to learn what is right and what is wrong. We have been beaten down, and most likely have no self-esteem left.
I just wanted to find a safe place to go to and to be able to ask questions, hear other peoples stories, just to know that I wasn't alone, and that the way I was living was not normal. I honestly did not know.
Once I felt safe, and found safe people to talk to, my life changed. It took awhile.
I'm not in an abusive relationship anymore. I know what I went through, and for me is was a learning experience of empathy, compassion, and support that I hope that I can pass on to someone else.
I'm still not fully recovered yet, I come here to help me with that. I am recovered enough though to not run away when someone tells me that I am trying to make myself a "victim". I will never consider someone who is or has been in an abusive relationship a "victim". They are survivors, they do it everyday. That's why I love this board.
((((((((((hugs))))))))))
amy
If I tried, I could not have figured out a more perfect way of saying this. Yes, God does help us, as Lexie pointed out that's why we have DV advocates, police, the courts, etc...
The thing I am mostly concerned about are some of the responses that are given that blame the person that is seeking help.
I don't go to AA or alanon, but I really thought the big book was about taking your own inventory. Not others inventory.
I do need to say that if I was looking for help and someone told me to stop being a victim, well I would have high tailed it out of there and run like a scared little rabbit.
I didn't know what was right and what was wrong. It wasn't felling good to me, my ex had already told me I was playing a victim, and that I should grow up, and do things the right way. The "right way" meant his way.
I wouldn't have been allowed to go to alanon. I couldn't just detach and walk away. He followed. There were many times in the cold winter that I locked myself in my car just to get away from him. My car was my bedroom. I slept there. I was afraid to go back into the house, and didn't have the money to leave.
I couldn't talk to my family and friends back then, he always played like he was such a terrific guy in front of them. My entire family was jealous of me because I had such a loving husband. I looked like I was the crazy person. I couldn't talk to my family then, I had to hide everything. I had to try to appear happy when I was around them, but I wasn't. I didn't want them telling me anymore that I appeared b!tchy. They never heard the things he said to me before we got to a party or after we left, and also during a party.
If someone does not have knowledge of what it is like living like this, then I would gently ask them to please not condemn us. We are trying to survive, we are trying to learn what is right and what is wrong. We have been beaten down, and most likely have no self-esteem left.
I just wanted to find a safe place to go to and to be able to ask questions, hear other peoples stories, just to know that I wasn't alone, and that the way I was living was not normal. I honestly did not know.
Once I felt safe, and found safe people to talk to, my life changed. It took awhile.
I'm not in an abusive relationship anymore. I know what I went through, and for me is was a learning experience of empathy, compassion, and support that I hope that I can pass on to someone else.
I'm still not fully recovered yet, I come here to help me with that. I am recovered enough though to not run away when someone tells me that I am trying to make myself a "victim". I will never consider someone who is or has been in an abusive relationship a "victim". They are survivors, they do it everyday. That's why I love this board.
((((((((((hugs))))))))))
amy
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Pa
Posts: 4,872
As an aside here, I do have the deepest respect for AA and alanon, I just don't like when it is used to possibly harm another person. I feel the same way about religions. They can also be used to abuse a person.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Nutmegger
Posts: 1,799
Originally Posted by WMJ1012
Actually the solution for all is in the Big Book of AA
Godspeed
WMJ
Godspeed
WMJ
My mother, while sober, continues to suffer after many many years. Her world has continued to shrink. She needed more help than she found in the rooms. She talks about "isms" and all of the AA rhetoric, but what my mother needed was psychological support from a professional who could unravel years of PTSD. In fact I would argue that she complicated her initial trauma by feeling inadequate for not finding all the help she needed in AA. That sort of shame based "if xyz is not enough it must be you" is the last thing a victim needs to be told.
My mother hung onto that same life raft, AA and her spirituality and didn't seek help from people who are trained to work with people who have suffered trauma…..she has suffered because she adhered to the same doctrine . She sits at home alone playing poker online because she never learned how to escape the ghosts that still haunt her, and she was left feeling that something was wrong with her because she couldn't find all the answers she needed in AA or church. I have borne party to a lifetime of mental suffering because my mother believed that it must be her fault and that she just needed to attend more meetings or pray harder.
So as someone who has witnessed first hand a lifetime of suffering because someone was told all they needed was in the big book and that if they couldn't find it there then it was they who were the problem I can't reject that theory strongly enough. AA is a fabulous tool for many who seek sobriety and spiritual growth, but it is not the answer to everything in life. And I think that it diminishes the benefits that AA does present to attempt to represent it that way.
When alcoholics are detoxing they don't lie them flat and wave a Big Book over them. They put them in medical facilities with trained professionals who know how to utilize the most advanced methods to keep them safe.
People who are in situations with a violent alcoholic partner don't need to have the big book waved at them either WMJ. It is not for crisis interventions. And when someone is involved with a violent alcoholic it is a crisis. It is not something they can pray on, it is not something they are responsible for, it is not simple.
My mother's abuse happened years before she entered AA, she wasn't in a crisis, and still the Big Book wasn't enough. So to suggest that the Big Book is enough for people whose lives are at stake is misguided at best.
There are times that I believe that the drinking part of an abusive relationship might actually be the gift to the victim…because it gives them something concrete, some place to start, and if they are lucky enough to end up here, I am grateful that they are met with the kindness and support of the amazing members of this forum.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Pa
Posts: 4,872
Originally Posted by WMJ1012
It's been vital for me to look at my part in these problems so i don't repeat them.
I chose people who were not quality people when I knew what I saw and I had a reason for that.
Then I wouldn't let them go and I had a reason for that too.
It's not about blame; it's just about seeing the truth.
A "moral" inventory means seeing the truth, not being right or wrong or good or bad
In order to outgrow my bad attractions I had to get honest and then look upon my enemies as sick people.
When it comes to other relationships, sometimes what I called "abuse" was just my intolerance for someone else's opinion. The Truth would make me very mad when I heard it and I would try to control the person because they disturbed my ego and pride. I would gossip, complain, shut people out etc. I was sick and I needed a solution that was Real Recovery.
I chose people who were not quality people when I knew what I saw and I had a reason for that.
Then I wouldn't let them go and I had a reason for that too.
It's not about blame; it's just about seeing the truth.
A "moral" inventory means seeing the truth, not being right or wrong or good or bad
In order to outgrow my bad attractions I had to get honest and then look upon my enemies as sick people.
When it comes to other relationships, sometimes what I called "abuse" was just my intolerance for someone else's opinion. The Truth would make me very mad when I heard it and I would try to control the person because they disturbed my ego and pride. I would gossip, complain, shut people out etc. I was sick and I needed a solution that was Real Recovery.
It's been vital for me to look at my part in these problems so i don't repeat them.
------
^^^^^this^^^^^
Don't you feel that you might be judging us here and we are not living up to your expectations?
One member almost left yesterday. Is that about helping?
amy
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 923
Thank you Amy--your post is so articulate and compassionate...and it is wonderful to read. I have a lot of shame and guilt and have had addicts in my life for a lifetime but was unaware until about 11 years ago...as my 2nd daughter was addicted to crystal meth--I was working my program very hard and woke up to the fact that I was an ACOA and started work.
Mostly my abuse was emotional and verbal abuse...but I have not gotten clarity on myself except to the extent to 'help' my addicted daughters (#1 and #2--functional and alive--#1 no longer uses and no longer drinks...and son #1 as well)--but I did hit bottom and it has been really hard and I did experience my first physical abuse about a year ago when I was in Chile (husband's home country) when he pushed me to the ground but I had pulled his hair...he wouldn't let me have money to get my long-term meds evaluated and I needed to push.
Because he is from another country...I had always done my long-term therapy with his culture in mind (as best I could)--but well...that was hard...but I really blamed me and he blamed me too. That is when I fell to the floor and just asked God (my HP) to help me...and was given a job over Skype and did some other things to see if he wanted to continue to be married...as we went down during the great recession of 2008 on...and well...I could go on and on...but I know that he has not made money for years...he works and yet never finishes his construction jobs on time...for years taking out of savings and now that savings is gone...just blaming his client in Chile.
He has been drinking since I met him at 16 (me) and 18 (him)--I have recently come awake to the fact that he simply lies, manipulates and doesn't do what he promises.
I hope no one here will blame me...this is our 40th year of marriage and I have hit bottom (earlier this year)--for the last 25 years...have been dealing with a child death (focus on keeping family and marriage together)--then 3 daughters in addiction...current one is an active heroin addict...each case has gotten worse and worse. There is massive denial in the immediate family and before that in my family of origin...to the point where I was shunned after my Dad (who was clean and sober for his last 11 years because he had a massive stroke...and couldn't talk or drink anymore...but did a great job of trying to stay in recovery--but even then...I didn't wake up to my history with addiction...it took my mother and sister turning away from me (as I unknowingly talked about addiction--was in the throes of my oldest daughter and determined to help her and to also work on me).
I keep coming here despite my feeling so stupid and not knowing what went on...because the more I come...the more I wake up to and the more truth I can tell myself...but the overwhelming guilt and feeling stupid and guilty and dumb and like I did this to myself are really overwhelming.
I have been doing therapy and with another active addict in my life (it has been going on with serial addicts for 19 years)--I am finally realizing that I can only work on myself...and I feel really bad about myself...but am getting up, got new meds to help, started seeing a therapist again...and today...had an honest conversation with my oldest daughter (who has her own child--4 years ago)--who was mad at her dad for lying to her about saying he would be back from finishing the latest commitment he made in Chile, underbid...and took 7 months to come home...and has again asked a child for money without telling me.
I feel so defeated...he is never going to change...but I need to look for work, I am doing naranon and I am not strong enough to deal with anymore than is on my plate.
I was honest with her ... and she is dealing with her own hard things ... so simply told her that she needs to tell her Dad that she is angry...and why...if she chooses...to tell her I am proud of her for facing her own issues and also seek to just let her know that I love her.
Our 2nd addict has reconfigured the whole experience of what her dad and I did to help her...to the belief that she did it all herself...and we basically--between the construction downturn and spending all we could on recovery...lost everything. My oldest daughter recognized that today...and I just told her I am happy she is working on herself...and her own life...
The patterns of addiction are so very hard...especially as I came from a family deep in denial...and it has become obvious that my own immediate family (now that they are adults) is also in quite a bit of denial...so I no longer try to explain and am getting better at it.
I have no idea if my marriage will make it...not because of me but because my husband runs from messes and hardship--although we always stuck together with our immediate family--but business and making money...forget it...
I am looking for a job again...and have been again wondering what I did wrong...and I recognize the ACOA in me (started my recovery there)--and am just taking one minute at a time.
I have gotten to the point where I feel hopeless and am confused and have nothing and no one left to trust or rely on...but me and these rooms (groups).
I have no idea what to do or anything else...but just working my program as best I can...feeling a bit better than I did even 2-6 weeks ago...and praying minute by minute for God to help me and show me what to do.
I was glad to have the time with oldest daughter today...and she seems to be handling things better than she ever has (and is facing her own hard things)--I have been as honest and accountable to her about myself and my own life as possible...to the things she has brought up...and we made plans for Thanksgiving with her son (her other sister chose to go 'have the most fun and easiest time' at my mothers' house...and since I specifically chose not to get in the way of my mother's issues with me and affect the relationship with her grandchildren...I accept it...although it still hurts...but know that my Mom never faced her own issues and is a drinker but have had such bigger issues within my own family for so many years...that I just pray..."God, please bless them; change me".
I am happy that this daughter wants to spend Thanksgiving and I am also easing her guilt about growing apart from her siblings as they build their own lives...and encouraging as best she will accept it...and also just grateful for moments like today where we could talk without so much defending and hiding...and I reassured her that it is not her job to take care of me...she is afraid her Dad is going to leave me (which means she is afraid he is never going to keep a promise to her and revealed her anger because he assured her he would be back...in time to watch her son...I ended up going down in stress due to that promise and she moved from southern california on that promise which wasn't kept.
It is hard to see our adult children suffer...but at least I know that I cannot fix things...am working to be as honest and nonjudgmental (I have been the blamee for our married life) and I just told her that he has to make his own choices...and shared that I have been afraid too as the months have been lengthening and he is not bringing any money in.
I guess I am saying that I hope not to be judged here...it has been hard for me to reveal all this blurb...and to know that the only person who can take care of me is me...and to not blame myself for not doing more in the past...because what I have done in the past was really more than enough.
Trying to stay in the present...trying not to go back to believing I was born a mistake in my family of origin which is where I was 13 years ago when my Dad passed...acknowledging that my parents did the best they could...but having to grieve a child death and the loss in life of a mother/sister who I truly believed were my best friends as I was always there for them and then finding that they had no qualms about cutting me out when Dad died...compassionate care no longer needed...and blaming me for my having gone so far down in my own self care.
I am confused and sitting in my meetings and here just trying to feel the pain and let it run it's course without taking myself further down in blame and guilt.
Grateful for a good therapist...and well...trying to find a job so that I can pay rent...I have always cared about others...but have had to learn that not everyone is capable of caring as deeply as I was born able (I am called the Highly Sensory Person and it is hard not to take on the feelings of others).
It's a hard day...but well...I am sitting here and working my program the best I can...and am writing down the best truth I have...and just grateful that I am alive and working to get better.
Mostly my abuse was emotional and verbal abuse...but I have not gotten clarity on myself except to the extent to 'help' my addicted daughters (#1 and #2--functional and alive--#1 no longer uses and no longer drinks...and son #1 as well)--but I did hit bottom and it has been really hard and I did experience my first physical abuse about a year ago when I was in Chile (husband's home country) when he pushed me to the ground but I had pulled his hair...he wouldn't let me have money to get my long-term meds evaluated and I needed to push.
Because he is from another country...I had always done my long-term therapy with his culture in mind (as best I could)--but well...that was hard...but I really blamed me and he blamed me too. That is when I fell to the floor and just asked God (my HP) to help me...and was given a job over Skype and did some other things to see if he wanted to continue to be married...as we went down during the great recession of 2008 on...and well...I could go on and on...but I know that he has not made money for years...he works and yet never finishes his construction jobs on time...for years taking out of savings and now that savings is gone...just blaming his client in Chile.
He has been drinking since I met him at 16 (me) and 18 (him)--I have recently come awake to the fact that he simply lies, manipulates and doesn't do what he promises.
I hope no one here will blame me...this is our 40th year of marriage and I have hit bottom (earlier this year)--for the last 25 years...have been dealing with a child death (focus on keeping family and marriage together)--then 3 daughters in addiction...current one is an active heroin addict...each case has gotten worse and worse. There is massive denial in the immediate family and before that in my family of origin...to the point where I was shunned after my Dad (who was clean and sober for his last 11 years because he had a massive stroke...and couldn't talk or drink anymore...but did a great job of trying to stay in recovery--but even then...I didn't wake up to my history with addiction...it took my mother and sister turning away from me (as I unknowingly talked about addiction--was in the throes of my oldest daughter and determined to help her and to also work on me).
I keep coming here despite my feeling so stupid and not knowing what went on...because the more I come...the more I wake up to and the more truth I can tell myself...but the overwhelming guilt and feeling stupid and guilty and dumb and like I did this to myself are really overwhelming.
I have been doing therapy and with another active addict in my life (it has been going on with serial addicts for 19 years)--I am finally realizing that I can only work on myself...and I feel really bad about myself...but am getting up, got new meds to help, started seeing a therapist again...and today...had an honest conversation with my oldest daughter (who has her own child--4 years ago)--who was mad at her dad for lying to her about saying he would be back from finishing the latest commitment he made in Chile, underbid...and took 7 months to come home...and has again asked a child for money without telling me.
I feel so defeated...he is never going to change...but I need to look for work, I am doing naranon and I am not strong enough to deal with anymore than is on my plate.
I was honest with her ... and she is dealing with her own hard things ... so simply told her that she needs to tell her Dad that she is angry...and why...if she chooses...to tell her I am proud of her for facing her own issues and also seek to just let her know that I love her.
Our 2nd addict has reconfigured the whole experience of what her dad and I did to help her...to the belief that she did it all herself...and we basically--between the construction downturn and spending all we could on recovery...lost everything. My oldest daughter recognized that today...and I just told her I am happy she is working on herself...and her own life...
The patterns of addiction are so very hard...especially as I came from a family deep in denial...and it has become obvious that my own immediate family (now that they are adults) is also in quite a bit of denial...so I no longer try to explain and am getting better at it.
I have no idea if my marriage will make it...not because of me but because my husband runs from messes and hardship--although we always stuck together with our immediate family--but business and making money...forget it...
I am looking for a job again...and have been again wondering what I did wrong...and I recognize the ACOA in me (started my recovery there)--and am just taking one minute at a time.
I have gotten to the point where I feel hopeless and am confused and have nothing and no one left to trust or rely on...but me and these rooms (groups).
I have no idea what to do or anything else...but just working my program as best I can...feeling a bit better than I did even 2-6 weeks ago...and praying minute by minute for God to help me and show me what to do.
I was glad to have the time with oldest daughter today...and she seems to be handling things better than she ever has (and is facing her own hard things)--I have been as honest and accountable to her about myself and my own life as possible...to the things she has brought up...and we made plans for Thanksgiving with her son (her other sister chose to go 'have the most fun and easiest time' at my mothers' house...and since I specifically chose not to get in the way of my mother's issues with me and affect the relationship with her grandchildren...I accept it...although it still hurts...but know that my Mom never faced her own issues and is a drinker but have had such bigger issues within my own family for so many years...that I just pray..."God, please bless them; change me".
I am happy that this daughter wants to spend Thanksgiving and I am also easing her guilt about growing apart from her siblings as they build their own lives...and encouraging as best she will accept it...and also just grateful for moments like today where we could talk without so much defending and hiding...and I reassured her that it is not her job to take care of me...she is afraid her Dad is going to leave me (which means she is afraid he is never going to keep a promise to her and revealed her anger because he assured her he would be back...in time to watch her son...I ended up going down in stress due to that promise and she moved from southern california on that promise which wasn't kept.
It is hard to see our adult children suffer...but at least I know that I cannot fix things...am working to be as honest and nonjudgmental (I have been the blamee for our married life) and I just told her that he has to make his own choices...and shared that I have been afraid too as the months have been lengthening and he is not bringing any money in.
I guess I am saying that I hope not to be judged here...it has been hard for me to reveal all this blurb...and to know that the only person who can take care of me is me...and to not blame myself for not doing more in the past...because what I have done in the past was really more than enough.
Trying to stay in the present...trying not to go back to believing I was born a mistake in my family of origin which is where I was 13 years ago when my Dad passed...acknowledging that my parents did the best they could...but having to grieve a child death and the loss in life of a mother/sister who I truly believed were my best friends as I was always there for them and then finding that they had no qualms about cutting me out when Dad died...compassionate care no longer needed...and blaming me for my having gone so far down in my own self care.
I am confused and sitting in my meetings and here just trying to feel the pain and let it run it's course without taking myself further down in blame and guilt.
Grateful for a good therapist...and well...trying to find a job so that I can pay rent...I have always cared about others...but have had to learn that not everyone is capable of caring as deeply as I was born able (I am called the Highly Sensory Person and it is hard not to take on the feelings of others).
It's a hard day...but well...I am sitting here and working my program the best I can...and am writing down the best truth I have...and just grateful that I am alive and working to get better.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 923
Agree with the poster above who talked about their mother in AA--I have had two diagnosed traumas (by doctors' in my life) my child's death, and my mother/sister turning away and shunning. I have worked vigorously on these things because they were what came up for me.
Sometimes the 12 steps sound so blaming and superficial to me...especially as I am pre-grieving the possible death of another child--an active heroin addict. I have worked the 12 steps because they help...but only when gentle and reassuring...which we all need.
I am always glad to read someone else's experience, strength and hope...and understood that WMJ was sharing his...but I am just now starting to open up to the fact that emotional abuse and rejection and shunning (for not meeting another's expectations--fill in the blank) has been overwhelming.
I reached a point after losing this last job (know I was looking really stressed and that wasn't what a good accountant shows...but had so many triggers...and the triggers don't just go away...so have asked Doctor for additional meds, was honest with the therapist who I can't really afford but need desperately...and am going to naranon...and reading my literature. I have no idea what my higher power (who I call God) will ask me to do but I am committed to doing what I can...I have been reassured that we are asked to make the changes that are ok for us as and when we can make them...and some days this is the only thing I can do which is to believe this.
I feel weaker when the threads degenerate because I am clinging to what little I have and hoping that things can really get better. I truly believe that only we can make things better for us...and that I have to work my side of the street and cannot work my addicts' or my family in denial or anybody elses recovery for anyone.
I like hearing what others have found to be their experience, strength and hope or the feelings that are expressed because those things give me courage. I do not know what it is to be on the other side of the program...simply trying not to give up completely...as I have felt tempted to do for the past 2 years...no longer have any stress tolerance and am so tired and emotional...from many years.
The good thing is that Amy's post and many of the other posts have given me the courage to work through part of my own deep shame and guilt of having been so oblivious to things for so long...until I worked myself into the ground and realized that I might be the one who doesn't make it...and now just hoping there is hope.
God Bless.
Sometimes the 12 steps sound so blaming and superficial to me...especially as I am pre-grieving the possible death of another child--an active heroin addict. I have worked the 12 steps because they help...but only when gentle and reassuring...which we all need.
I am always glad to read someone else's experience, strength and hope...and understood that WMJ was sharing his...but I am just now starting to open up to the fact that emotional abuse and rejection and shunning (for not meeting another's expectations--fill in the blank) has been overwhelming.
I reached a point after losing this last job (know I was looking really stressed and that wasn't what a good accountant shows...but had so many triggers...and the triggers don't just go away...so have asked Doctor for additional meds, was honest with the therapist who I can't really afford but need desperately...and am going to naranon...and reading my literature. I have no idea what my higher power (who I call God) will ask me to do but I am committed to doing what I can...I have been reassured that we are asked to make the changes that are ok for us as and when we can make them...and some days this is the only thing I can do which is to believe this.
I feel weaker when the threads degenerate because I am clinging to what little I have and hoping that things can really get better. I truly believe that only we can make things better for us...and that I have to work my side of the street and cannot work my addicts' or my family in denial or anybody elses recovery for anyone.
I like hearing what others have found to be their experience, strength and hope or the feelings that are expressed because those things give me courage. I do not know what it is to be on the other side of the program...simply trying not to give up completely...as I have felt tempted to do for the past 2 years...no longer have any stress tolerance and am so tired and emotional...from many years.
The good thing is that Amy's post and many of the other posts have given me the courage to work through part of my own deep shame and guilt of having been so oblivious to things for so long...until I worked myself into the ground and realized that I might be the one who doesn't make it...and now just hoping there is hope.
God Bless.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Pa
Posts: 4,872
I cried when I read every story here. I thank you all for your responses. We will all get better, and when we do, we will pass our knowledge on.
I think we all need a
______________
I know that I have written a lot of things about this. Mostly leave the children out of it.
I hope you all know that I do not mind the hard hitters. I think sometimes when a situation calls for that then I would rather them go in then me.
I can only deal with things from my own experience. I needed to get my "oxygen mask" on first. When I was in my situation, I was in my own head, I saw things going on, but I tried my best to keep my kids out of it. It was the best I could do at that point with the tools that I had to work with.
Sometimes when I come here I see a newcomer coming in and being jumped on. It's something I can't tolerate. All it does is scare a person away from the help they need. I do strongly believe that a person needs to feel safe first. Be able to open up to other people. No, most can't just go out and go to therapy or alanon. They sneak onto the internet. Then they erase the history and the cookies. We could be the first type of help that they are reaching out to.
If anyone is not in the situation we have been in then I do strongly recommend reading the stickies above before demanding someone follows your time table, or before you start telling them that they are a victim because they like it !!!!!!!!
I love my family here. It's my safe place, I hope it is yours also.
((((((((((hugs))))))))))))
amy
I think we all need a
______________
I know that I have written a lot of things about this. Mostly leave the children out of it.
I hope you all know that I do not mind the hard hitters. I think sometimes when a situation calls for that then I would rather them go in then me.
I can only deal with things from my own experience. I needed to get my "oxygen mask" on first. When I was in my situation, I was in my own head, I saw things going on, but I tried my best to keep my kids out of it. It was the best I could do at that point with the tools that I had to work with.
Sometimes when I come here I see a newcomer coming in and being jumped on. It's something I can't tolerate. All it does is scare a person away from the help they need. I do strongly believe that a person needs to feel safe first. Be able to open up to other people. No, most can't just go out and go to therapy or alanon. They sneak onto the internet. Then they erase the history and the cookies. We could be the first type of help that they are reaching out to.
If anyone is not in the situation we have been in then I do strongly recommend reading the stickies above before demanding someone follows your time table, or before you start telling them that they are a victim because they like it !!!!!!!!
I love my family here. It's my safe place, I hope it is yours also.
((((((((((hugs))))))))))))
amy
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 65
If the house is on fire--wouldn't it make more sense to GET OUT FIRST---then make plans for the future?
The way I look at it...."first things first".....
dandylion[/QUOTE]
You are so right but in my situation, I really couldn't see that the house was on fire. There was just a lot of smoke and I couldn't figure out where it was coming from (to use your analogy). What if I fled the house and it was biscuits burning? And it was so hard to hear total strangers trying to tell me the house was burning down! Well I put that fire out for 7 weeks before it rekindled. Never again! All I know is that the future ahead has to be better than the past I left!
The way I look at it...."first things first".....
dandylion[/QUOTE]
You are so right but in my situation, I really couldn't see that the house was on fire. There was just a lot of smoke and I couldn't figure out where it was coming from (to use your analogy). What if I fled the house and it was biscuits burning? And it was so hard to hear total strangers trying to tell me the house was burning down! Well I put that fire out for 7 weeks before it rekindled. Never again! All I know is that the future ahead has to be better than the past I left!
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
cherra....I realize that that is how most feel when they are in the heat of the abuse.
That is why I always try to very gently and compassionately offer options and try to steer the person in the direction of immediate and practical help.
This might sound like a stupid statement---but, doesn't SOMEONE have to be the first one to tell them that the house is on fire? (even if they hate to hear that).
When a person is drowning in water---often, the rescuer has to protect themselves from the drowning person fighting them! Of course, that is the fear that causes them to react like that.
I guess that I am one of the heave-hitters that is being talked about, here, but I really do try to offer compassion with practical, immediate options for help.
Well...I am soo glad that you got out. That is the most important thing. And, now...you can direct your own journey.....
You will be o.k., I am sure. If you have gotten this far,,,you are a survivor (yea!)
dandylion
That is why I always try to very gently and compassionately offer options and try to steer the person in the direction of immediate and practical help.
This might sound like a stupid statement---but, doesn't SOMEONE have to be the first one to tell them that the house is on fire? (even if they hate to hear that).
When a person is drowning in water---often, the rescuer has to protect themselves from the drowning person fighting them! Of course, that is the fear that causes them to react like that.
I guess that I am one of the heave-hitters that is being talked about, here, but I really do try to offer compassion with practical, immediate options for help.
Well...I am soo glad that you got out. That is the most important thing. And, now...you can direct your own journey.....
You will be o.k., I am sure. If you have gotten this far,,,you are a survivor (yea!)
dandylion
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