Manipulative People
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I agree with you Hammer, about general niceties; but this:
to me, is a very different setup than the one described by the OP. The OP's situation is about being directly questioned in what she perceives to be an intrusive way by a shop owner that she has taken the time to develop a somewhat casual relationship with.
I guess I'm confused - HOW do you know he is aware of this manipulation? Is that an assumption you are making?... because the first sentence above kinda reads that way - that over 9 months you have built up a pattern of accepting his behavior & you admit at indulging him in "people pleasing". You can't accept unacceptable behavior for months & then get upset with that person for not realizing it's unacceptable, right?
Or HAVE you actually expressed this discomfort/boundary to him & he is continuing to push against it despite that conversation?
Originally Posted by Hammer 
But the folks it drew in were rather ungracious to the folks that worked there. So I made a point of being kind, a smile, and usually buying something along with the free coffee.
I remained kind but each morning I began to face more and more manipulation for about 9 months now.
He's known for some time now that I'm uncomfortable with his manipulation.
Or HAVE you actually expressed this discomfort/boundary to him & he is continuing to push against it despite that conversation?
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
I guess I'm confused - HOW do you know he is aware of this manipulation? Is that an assumption you are making?... because the first sentence above kinda reads that way - that over 9 months you have built up a pattern of accepting his behavior & you admit at indulging him in "people pleasing". You can't accept unacceptable behavior for months & then get upset with that person for not realizing it's unacceptable, right?
Or HAVE you actually expressed this discomfort/boundary to him & he is continuing to push against it despite that conversation?
Or HAVE you actually expressed this discomfort/boundary to him & he is continuing to push against it despite that conversation?
"wow. Wigging out over the Coffee Slinger? How's Your Program going?"
BUT I have learned that I tend to enrage folks when I do that. So I will not.
And it looks like that is trail that WMJ1012 is on, anyway.
It IS the little things that bother us, yes. This is where the 10th step comes in.
But also we each have to pray for what God's will is for us. And sometimes that does mean moving on. This is why I brought up that God might be trying to get me to change my morning routine. Maybe He wants me to take walks instead and make coffee at home.
It's why this board can be hard - only we really know outmoded situations
I thank everyone for their input and responses
But also we each have to pray for what God's will is for us. And sometimes that does mean moving on. This is why I brought up that God might be trying to get me to change my morning routine. Maybe He wants me to take walks instead and make coffee at home.
It's why this board can be hard - only we really know outmoded situations
I thank everyone for their input and responses
Best to you WMJ1012, may all our problems be solved as such.
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Alright, after looking up Step 10 - clearly Ms. WMJ has been blowing off this percolating (ha ha!) issue on her daily inventory for 9 months. 
This is a good lesson to extrapolate with F&F as so often we have put up with bad behavior for so long it is difficult to lay down boundaries WAY after the first wave of problems. Not that it can't be done, but it takes A LOT more effort.
I think the purpose of Step 10 is to identify and resolve such issues with your own personal behavior in REAL time before it becomes a habit or a BIG problem.
So for instance, when I next see my drama dumping hairstylist, I need to speak up that hearing about the hookers was over my prude boundary. She is an artist, but I can't be shivering with gross out HIV germaphone responses when she cuts my hair! And if she keeps pushing it, I can seek out another hair artist.
This is a good lesson to extrapolate with F&F as so often we have put up with bad behavior for so long it is difficult to lay down boundaries WAY after the first wave of problems. Not that it can't be done, but it takes A LOT more effort.
I think the purpose of Step 10 is to identify and resolve such issues with your own personal behavior in REAL time before it becomes a habit or a BIG problem.
So for instance, when I next see my drama dumping hairstylist, I need to speak up that hearing about the hookers was over my prude boundary. She is an artist, but I can't be shivering with gross out HIV germaphone responses when she cuts my hair!
And if she keeps pushing it, I can seek out another hair artist.
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Originally Posted by CodeJob
Alright, after looking up Step 10 - clearly Ms. WMJ has been blowing off this percolating (ha ha!) issue on her daily inventory for 9 months.
This is a good lesson to extrapolate with F&F as so often we have put up with bad behavior for so long it is difficult to lay down boundaries WAY after the first wave of problems. Not that it can't be done, but it takes A LOT more effort.
I think the purpose of Step 10 is to identify and resolve such issues with your own personal behavior in REAL time before it becomes a habit or a BIG problem.
So for instance, when I next see my drama dumping hairstylist, I need to speak up that hearing about the hookers was over my prude boundary. She is an artist, but I can't be shivering with gross out HIV germaphone responses when she cuts my hair! And if she keeps pushing it, I can seek out another hair artist.
This is a good lesson to extrapolate with F&F as so often we have put up with bad behavior for so long it is difficult to lay down boundaries WAY after the first wave of problems. Not that it can't be done, but it takes A LOT more effort.
I think the purpose of Step 10 is to identify and resolve such issues with your own personal behavior in REAL time before it becomes a habit or a BIG problem.
So for instance, when I next see my drama dumping hairstylist, I need to speak up that hearing about the hookers was over my prude boundary. She is an artist, but I can't be shivering with gross out HIV germaphone responses when she cuts my hair!
And if she keeps pushing it, I can seek out another hair artist.And why would you laugh at someone else in recovery who you think has been "percolating" a resentment? Do you have a sick mind?
Perhaps I did the 10th Step when the time was right.
At least I have willingness.
And I don't want any of my sisters in recovery to be unhappy.
And what is this judgment about people with HIV? We're you brought up by wolves with no common decency? Do you live in the dark ages? And is there some fear around HIV for you?
Man. And I thought I had problems? Wheeeeeeewwww!
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We sure can complicate things!
I think it is fairly clear. Go some place else.
There are two sides to this problem. You and him. You can't change the fact that he is the manager and going to be there in your face everyday but you can change where you get your coffee and muffin.
Why continue to subject yourself to something that makes you uncomfortable?
Move on.
I don't stand in the middle of the road and hope traffic moves around me, I move out of the road.
I think it is fairly clear. Go some place else.
There are two sides to this problem. You and him. You can't change the fact that he is the manager and going to be there in your face everyday but you can change where you get your coffee and muffin.
Why continue to subject yourself to something that makes you uncomfortable?
Move on.
I don't stand in the middle of the road and hope traffic moves around me, I move out of the road.
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Originally Posted by WMJ1012
Why would anyone in 12-step recovery have to "look up" Step 10? You then must never do them?
And why would you laugh at someone else in recovery who you think has been "percolating" a resentment? Do you have a sick mind?
Perhaps I did the 10th Step when the time was right.
At least I have willingness.
And I don't want any of my sisters in recovery to be unhappy.
And what is this judgment about people with HIV? We're you brought up by wolves with no common decency? Do you live in the dark ages? And is there some fear around HIV for you?
Man. And I thought I had problems? Wheeeeeeewwww!
And why would you laugh at someone else in recovery who you think has been "percolating" a resentment? Do you have a sick mind?
Perhaps I did the 10th Step when the time was right.
At least I have willingness.
And I don't want any of my sisters in recovery to be unhappy.
And what is this judgment about people with HIV? We're you brought up by wolves with no common decency? Do you live in the dark ages? And is there some fear around HIV for you?
Man. And I thought I had problems? Wheeeeeeewwww!
Since you are so busy taking inventory & throwing around judgment (brought up by wolves, really?) you missed the JOKE.
"percolating" as in COFFEE percolates. It was a play on words, she wasn't laughing AT anyone.
Just so you realize - not everyone in this forum is IN a 12-step program so many of us DO have to look up the references to the steps. This isn't an Al-Anon forum or a 12-step forum.
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I don't stand in the middle of the road and hope traffic moves around me, I move out of the road.
I used to be a coffee addict. I loved the routine, same as I love(d) smoking, and it wasn't a ton of money. I like coffee shop culture, it's a little crunchy and cozy, the smells are divine. But you know that terrible financial advice where they tell you you'll get rich if you stop going to Starbucks? A couple of years ago, I stopped buying coffee. I'm not a millionaire today, but I have a lot more cash. Today I don't even drink coffee. I'll have a few sips every now and again, but you'd be amazed at how easily I can bounce out of bed and get going with my day and not even miss the caffeine.
But that's besides the point. The point is you can do anything you want. You're married to nothing here except a caffeine addiction. You can do anything EXCEPT control how someone else treats you.
So, move out of the road.
I used to have this friend that subjected me to interrogations every time we hung out. I spent a lot of time justifying and defending myself, my opinions, my life choices, my willingness to do or not do whatever, and it became exhausting. I tried telling him not to talk to me like this, and that I didn't like it. He asked why? He had a barrage of questions about my boundaries when I tried to explain them to him. My boundary: I don't want to spend time with someone who abuses my goodwill and puts me on the defensive. I kept telling him my "boundary" and he kept flaunting his ability not to honor it.
See, boundaries are for US. They aren't for OTHERS. If your boundary is that you don't want to be questioned and pushed into doing things you aren't interested in doing, and you ACCEPT that you cannot change the will of others, and you BOTH KNOW that you are uncomfortable with his questioning and prodding and he's doing it anyway, your choices are pretty clear. You don't want to be pushed and questioned, especially not during your pleasant morning routine. So? Sounds like you might change your morning routine to avoid people who don't care how you feel. To me, this isn't a 10th step issue, it's a 1st step issue: acceptance.
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Originally Posted by WMJ1012
But also we each have to pray for what God's will is for us. And sometimes that does mean moving on. This is why I brought up that God might be trying to get me to change my morning routine. Maybe He wants me to take walks instead and make coffee at home.
I'm a real people pleaser and I avoid conflict at all cost, but if I were in your shoes I'd just answer briefly and to the point without either offending or encouraging. "Why no coffee today?" "Don't feel like it, thanks!"
You could even muster up a light side with some friendly banter: "Why no muffin?" "Geez, pal, why the third degree?" (smile)
If it's no hassle to get your coffee elsewhere you could do that, but if it's the best, most convenient place to get it, I sure wouldn't change my behavior just to avoid him.
Otherwise, I'd be polite, but would simply engage as little as possible, without thinking about it too much. Not worth the mental real estate, IMHO.
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Originally Posted by WMJ1012
I wasn't talking to you.
Back onto the original topic, I frankly don't see where this is a big deal. I run into annoying people all day long. If it's in my own interest to put up with it, I do. If not, I avoid those people. But I don't feel the need to do an inventory about every annoying encounter. Sometimes it IS the other person, and "my part in it" is putting up with it, and the answer is simply changing my routine so I don't have to feel upset.
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Originally Posted by WMJ1012
I wasn't talking to you.
Just so you realize.... your statements like this:
We're you brought up by wolves with no common decency? Do you live in the dark ages?
I don't insult people but I can be honest (which sometimes does offend but isn't cruel.)
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No word play for CodeJob today. 
Here's the link to last week's discussion which is more in line with your original question.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...irstylist.html
Here's the link to last week's discussion which is more in line with your original question.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...irstylist.html
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Heh. I forgot to mention that I no longer hang out with this friend, and he is, despite all the conversation and resistance from me, still confused about how it all happened. I see him around and I'm polite, but I'm really not interested in being pushed and pulled in and out of conversations I don't want to have. I had to accept that this is who this guy is. This is how he works. WHY doesn't matter, and since I'd stated my preferences and compromise and/or understanding was off the table, I had to change my playgrounds and playmates.
Anyway.
I get why this dynamic is so nuts and crazy-making. It seems so simple. He rubbed you the wrong way, you said stop it, and now he's not stopping. Argh. I held onto this dynamic for years with friends, family, employers, and others. It's a hallmark of codependency.
Someone else here recently said, "I'm sick of kicking dead horses expecting them to get up and love me." Me too. I no longer kick dead horses expecting them to get up and love, respect, validate, heal, or listen to me. Whatever you want from this guy, you're not getting it. You asked, he ignored, so now the choice is yours.
Anyway.
I get why this dynamic is so nuts and crazy-making. It seems so simple. He rubbed you the wrong way, you said stop it, and now he's not stopping. Argh. I held onto this dynamic for years with friends, family, employers, and others. It's a hallmark of codependency.
Someone else here recently said, "I'm sick of kicking dead horses expecting them to get up and love me." Me too. I no longer kick dead horses expecting them to get up and love, respect, validate, heal, or listen to me. Whatever you want from this guy, you're not getting it. You asked, he ignored, so now the choice is yours.
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Avoidance or not, I,d just go to another coffee shop. Period.
Someone like that won,t get anything you say anyways.
[/B]
Someone like that won,t get anything you say anyways.
[/B]
Originally Posted by WMJ1012
I posted this on the AA forum but thought maybe Alanons could better give insight:
Many mornings I go to a local Dunkin Donuts for about a year now. The manager at first was very nice and would smile and run around (at 6am!) Very high energy gay man about 35 years old. We saw each other around town a few times in line at the bank etc. we always had nice exchanges.
He asked me to give his store a review by going to a website and entering numbers on my coffee receipt so I was happy to do that. It was a good honest kind review. A few weeks later he wanted me to do another one so I did. A few weeks later he wanted me to do another one and I said I felt 2 was good for now...maybe later in the year. Truthfully I just wanted my darned coffee without feeling I owe him something. I'm already giving him business.
He started trying to bribe me with those free DD Calendars ("I have a 'gift' for you!") I said I already picked one up, thanks anyway. I remained kind but each morning I began to face more and more manipulation for about 9 months now.
He's started this thing where every morning he asks me why I'm ordering what I'm ordering. "Why no coffee? Is there something wrong with our coffee? Why only a muffin? Why no muffin and only a coffee? Don't you like our muffins anymore? Do you buy coffee somewhere else? Have you been making coffee at home?"
I want to live by principles with this guy. I don't fight people. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and how you'd handle it using the 12 steps
Many mornings I go to a local Dunkin Donuts for about a year now. The manager at first was very nice and would smile and run around (at 6am!) Very high energy gay man about 35 years old. We saw each other around town a few times in line at the bank etc. we always had nice exchanges.
He asked me to give his store a review by going to a website and entering numbers on my coffee receipt so I was happy to do that. It was a good honest kind review. A few weeks later he wanted me to do another one so I did. A few weeks later he wanted me to do another one and I said I felt 2 was good for now...maybe later in the year. Truthfully I just wanted my darned coffee without feeling I owe him something. I'm already giving him business.
He started trying to bribe me with those free DD Calendars ("I have a 'gift' for you!") I said I already picked one up, thanks anyway. I remained kind but each morning I began to face more and more manipulation for about 9 months now.
He's started this thing where every morning he asks me why I'm ordering what I'm ordering. "Why no coffee? Is there something wrong with our coffee? Why only a muffin? Why no muffin and only a coffee? Don't you like our muffins anymore? Do you buy coffee somewhere else? Have you been making coffee at home?"
I want to live by principles with this guy. I don't fight people. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and how you'd handle it using the 12 steps
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WMJ1012--I liked what Hammer said...and I don't have enough recovery for myself to be able to advise you on what I would do if I were you...so just know that you brought up a good topic for me...it is often the 'seemingly' little things that get to me which I have to figure out...and it often takes me a very long time to do so...and whether it is the coffee place or the hairstylist (which was also another great thread for me)--you have made it clear that we all have to work on what 'seems' small to somebody else and is big to us. I am often afraid to post here as I don't want what I do post to be treated as 'no big deal' and I am overcoming that fear...having come from a family where shame and blame were the prevalent values...and working against that in my life...especially when these are in crisis state (as now)--it is often best for me to work on the less crisis stuff while I am waiting...and I happen to believe that I will be working the 12 steps for the rest of my life...there is so much that comes up. Just for today, I was glad that I got up and went to the McDonald's drive through where people are friendly and the coffee is $1.09 (incl tax) versus to my years-long coffee routine (almost 20) as I am not comfortable there right now...and it has nothing to do with the coffee shop or the people there (I have known enough about them for years--people are always happy to gossip when finding things about others) but because I am not comfortable there...and it was just too much to go there on top of some of the other things I am working on...trying to find another job, an active heroin addict lost in her addiction and furious with me, not welcome in my family of origin, worried about the lengthy time it took husband to finish construction project in his home country and knowing that it has caused me a lot of pain...he said 2 months; it will be 7 by the time he gets home...
I am glad you posted here...because often I feel that I am obsessing about the small things (one funny one many years ago was worrying about how to do the 'right' posture for meditation...as I did it best laying down and that is not the recommended perfect posture--then finally realized that it was what made me feel better--so that is a story on me that you can laugh at...it took way long to accept that I could do it any way that worked...I since have realized that I had underlying issues to work on but at that time...it was my normal).
I am glad you posted here...because often I feel that I am obsessing about the small things (one funny one many years ago was worrying about how to do the 'right' posture for meditation...as I did it best laying down and that is not the recommended perfect posture--then finally realized that it was what made me feel better--so that is a story on me that you can laugh at...it took way long to accept that I could do it any way that worked...I since have realized that I had underlying issues to work on but at that time...it was my normal).
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Originally Posted by WMJ1012
Why would anyone in 12-step recovery have to "look up" Step 10? You then must never do them?
But not many - if any - Rational Recovery types, I would think . . . they have already dumped their A's and gotten on with their lives.
Man. And I thought I had problems? Wheeeeeeewwww!
But real question. Totally sincere. You are a cross-over from the A / AA-side, right? I see a few, or sometimes even quite a few come over -- so Welcome in that regard.
But here is an observation -- What I see for the folks, in real life, that come over is a frustration for a while. With life, others, sometimes themselves.
It may come from trying to "force" solutions.
Have done any or many Alanon meetings? Here is our suggested welcome >>>
Al-Anon and Alateen Family Groups - Santa Barbara - Suggested Al-Anon Welcome
One part of it is . . . .
"Our thinking becomes distorted by trying to force solutions, and we become irritable and unreasonable without knowing it."
Since you are a Steps enthusiast -- (praise God
) -- I love them Steps. Here is my favorite for most of these things -- Step 11 (for the folks following along) >>Step 11 -- "Sought through Prayers and Mediation to Improve our Conscious Contact with God, As We Understood Him, Praying Only for the Knowledge of His Will for Us and the Power to Carry That Out"
But why wait?
---------------------
Dear God,
Please direct our busy feet as to where to get Coffee, so that Your Will and Your Way will be served.
Amen.
I am betting God's Diner has goooood coffee.
--------------------
bam.
You know what? Before I even finished typing that -- here comes the Knowledge of His Will for Us and the Power to Carry That Out
(If God were a Ping-Pong Player -- He would have a wicked serve)
You know where I am stopping next? Alanon newcomer meeting. I am often the only guy who has been around for a while, so I feel obliged if there any newcomer guys.
And I always go over to the other side and get some AA coffee and visit with those folks.
Knowledge of His Will and His Way on "Where to get Coffee."
Praise God, and Thank You, WMJ1012, and Thank You, Soberrecovery.
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Hi All
This is just one of those small things in life but another great opportunity to practice the steps...this morning after my time with God I went into the DDs. It was actually funny because the manager pushed aside one of his employees to get to me
He waited on me and I ordered my muffin as usual. He asked me, "No coffee?" I said, "No thanks." He said, "Why no coffee? Don't you like our coffee?" And I laughed and said lightheartedly, "I don't have to have to order anything I don't want to order." He was stunned by Truth. He then was reaching for what else he could say to manipulate and finally said, "I don't see you every day anymore." I said, "Huh." He then had nothing else left to go but give me back incorrect change so I said, "I believe I'm owed another $10." and he said, "Oh my goodness, I didn't realize that. I must have made a mistake." I said, "I make them all the time. Have a great day." and I walked out.
The difference is, because I did the work around it I was unafraid to he honest and felt safe protected and calm.
I plan to keep going to this shop. I'm interested in seeing what happens and look forward to more opportunities to work my program
These are the little things I have to learn to deal with that prepare me for the bigger things
Have a great day everyone
This is just one of those small things in life but another great opportunity to practice the steps...this morning after my time with God I went into the DDs. It was actually funny because the manager pushed aside one of his employees to get to me
He waited on me and I ordered my muffin as usual. He asked me, "No coffee?" I said, "No thanks." He said, "Why no coffee? Don't you like our coffee?" And I laughed and said lightheartedly, "I don't have to have to order anything I don't want to order." He was stunned by Truth. He then was reaching for what else he could say to manipulate and finally said, "I don't see you every day anymore." I said, "Huh." He then had nothing else left to go but give me back incorrect change so I said, "I believe I'm owed another $10." and he said, "Oh my goodness, I didn't realize that. I must have made a mistake." I said, "I make them all the time. Have a great day." and I walked out.
The difference is, because I did the work around it I was unafraid to he honest and felt safe protected and calm.
I plan to keep going to this shop. I'm interested in seeing what happens and look forward to more opportunities to work my program
These are the little things I have to learn to deal with that prepare me for the bigger things
Have a great day everyone
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Sounds like you have solved your problem.
You may see this as manipulation I just see it as sales. He/she is the manager. Manger gets sales goals. Sales goals = bonus. When I worked as a waiter we were taught to do the same. "may I start you an appetizer? I recommend the special. My suggestion on wine is_______". Of course the higher the sale the more tip (you hope) Often times there was a contest of whoever sold the most of something won something. Worked 99% of the time then there was that 1% that gets overly annoyed by suggestions……..
Its nothing personal I am quite sure. I'm betting the manager doesn't give a rats a** if you have their delicious coffee or not, but does care if the paycheck is more than usual or if they are about to get their butt kicked for failing to meet sales goals.
You may see this as manipulation I just see it as sales. He/she is the manager. Manger gets sales goals. Sales goals = bonus. When I worked as a waiter we were taught to do the same. "may I start you an appetizer? I recommend the special. My suggestion on wine is_______". Of course the higher the sale the more tip (you hope) Often times there was a contest of whoever sold the most of something won something. Worked 99% of the time then there was that 1% that gets overly annoyed by suggestions……..
Its nothing personal I am quite sure. I'm betting the manager doesn't give a rats a** if you have their delicious coffee or not, but does care if the paycheck is more than usual or if they are about to get their butt kicked for failing to meet sales goals.
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