carmen303

Has anyone noticed their A getting a look in their eyes, that seems mental? If so, does the long term use of the alcohol cause this and if the alcohol has caused this, is it reversible (if they become sober and get into a program)? thanks.

happybeingme

It is possible that alcohol causes it. Long term alcohol abuse can cause brain damage, cancer, diabetes and a whole host of other problems. However, many alcoholics self medicate pre-existing conditions. The most common ones I know of are depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, and schizophrenia. Its impossible to know unless your A gets a full medical work up.

As far as "is it permanent". Again its impossible to know with a medical workup

FeelingGreat

Hi Carmen, alcohol certainly affects the brain in all sorts of ways, hardly any good once you get past a certain intake level. I suggest you get on the internet and Google 'stages of alcoholism'. That should give you a heads up on what's possible.

I am a sober alcoholic and I scared myself into sobriety by reading about advanced alcoholism.

LexieCat

carmen, I've noticed you've started a few threads on this topic--"does it mean mental illness," "will it get better if he gets sober," "how long does it take for him to get better if he stops drinking" (paraphrased, not exact quotes).

Has he shown ANY signs of stopping? I haven't seen that you've mentioned any. You broke up with him because of his drinking. That was a wise move on your part, but you seem to be getting stuck on "what if"s.

My suggestion is that you let go of it, let go of HIM, move on with your life. When and if he ever quits drinking and seeks you out, THEN you can see what he's like.

Every single alcoholic is different. Some seem "crazier" than others, and it really doesn't mean much in terms of how they will be after a period of good, sound recovery.

But all of this seems irrelevant to your current situation, and it's going to keep you stuck in an unhealthy place.

carmen303

I read the stages just now. It's hard for me to tell what stage he is in. He has some characteristics and not others.

He's in his 40s and started drinking in college.

His drink of choice was beer and changed to wine. He wakes up and has it first thing in the morning, mixed with tea. He sips it throughout the day, claiming that he dilutes it with the tea. By night, he's slurring his words.

Even though he's very intelligent, he keeps losing his jobs, because he gets mad and says things he shouldn't. His finances have become greatly effected with foreclosure. He has had physical changes; puffy face, beer belly, thin legs. He cares less about his appearance; preferring to wear holes in his shirts, being "casual".

If he hasn't had anything to drink, he becomes very irritable and mean; his hands tremble. He admits he has a problem, but keeps putting off doing something about it. There's always an excuse, always claiming he is "going to do something, but this isn't a good time".

I can't figure out his stage, because he never has blackouts (maybe that doesn't happen with wine and beer?), never vomits, never loses control of his bladder, no hangovers, rarely wobbles (until evening), he does not isolate himself, he still loves to socialize and see people - but every outing has an opportunity to drink, of course.

But then, I also worry about the effects to his brain. His moods and anger are bad; he's nicer when he gets the alcohol in his system (it turns him sweet), but he has a look in his eyes that I'm concerned about; starting to look mental - If that symptom is due to the alcohol, I'm trying to figure out if sobriety will reverse that. I understand that other issues may exist, but I'm just trying to figure out if the alcohol's effects on the brain are reversible.

Anyway, if you know, please let me know. Also, based on what I've said, do you have any idea what stage this sounds like. Thanks.

carmen303

Hi lexycat, I still have a lot to sort through; and a lot to understand. I can't let it go yet. Apparently, our breakup is not official yet.

He's been calling me, texting me, etc... and mad at me, because I can't actually say the words. I just want him to be better.

We are apparently somewhat in limbo.

I just want him to get better. I don't know what to say to him. He thinks that I should try to work out our problems. I've told him our problems are his drinking and the effects of his drinking. He says that's an "excuse" and everything I say is like talking to a brick wall.

He's quite cleaver and can make me think I have the problem, when I know that there is nothing wrong with me (and I don't drink, do drugs, smoke ... never have).

It's easy to pull me back in, because I want so badly for everything to be okay, but nothing changes. I have to talk with him today, I just don't know what to say.

Bullfrog

As rational caring people, we want to analyze and figure out what caused it and what's going to happen to our loved ones. I think that's normal to a certain point. I've certainly done it for far too long.

However, if you want peace and serenity and joy in YOUR life, you have to let it go and give it to God. You cannot control his drinking. You will end up just as sick as him if you try.

dandylion

carmen303....here is a suggestion of what you could tell him "I am seriously co-dependent and am going to alanon in order to work on myself ".

I doesn't sound like you are confident within your own self to exit the relationship. However that will, undoubtedly, change as you work on a program of your own. Coming to understand your own needs and feelings and behaviors will cast a different light on most every aspect of your life.

dandylion

newlifecy

I would highly suggest Alanon for you. There you can talk freely, face to face with others who have loved ones that are going down the same path. There's a lot of support for you there and possibly a lot of answers too. Treat yourself to a meeting.

Eauchiche

My goodness, are you and I accidentally married to the same person? I think I just wrote your post- only the names are different.
I am in the middle of filing for bankruptcy from a business I lost, and my Alky is playing this to the hilt. He has to sign some documents as my spouse, even though he isn't filing. After that is over, I am going to seriously consider a permanent separation from him. Another choice I have would be to move closer to him to pick up pieces as his life unravels. I am trying to learn all I can about codependent F.O.G. I am fighting the "obligation" part of things
with a vengeance!
I keep reminding myself that I have more than just two choices here.
Good luck to you!

carmen303

eauch, so sorry to hear about your business. good luck to you too.

newlife and danylion, right now you guys ARE my alanon I've also been to alanon already. right now, I'm trying to navigate my situation and figure out how to handle it. I don't know if there is hope, because he keeps wanting to try, so I have to analyze and figure stuff out, not to make myself sick or crazy, but to make a smart decision as to how to handle my situation.

I'm trying to figure out what is reversible, what stage he is in and what I should say to him about our relationship. Do I say, "no more. I need you to get help", etc...I don't want to say "it's over" because I love him, but I don't want to keep going, because I'm on a merry-go-round that keeps repeating and never gets better. After he acts up, he's REALLY good at sounding wonderful, funny and articulate in an attempt to patch things up again, which makes it even harder for me.

If I say, "you know where to find me once you've fixed this"? He will most likely reply that he's going to find someone else (because apparently a man has to have his sex). He already feels anger toward me because I've backed away. The pattern has been that I feel guilty and just want to give him what he wants so that we can be happy again and nothing gets resolved, but then I feel trapped in the situation that's not getting better.

I'd like to leave the door open for him to come back if he recovers; I can't stand to close the door, but he will probably end it, if I can't get past his drinking.

However it happens, I don't want it to end badly and I want the door open in the future, if things change (and if we don't find other people). So how would I phrase this, so that he doesn't get mad and hate me?

amy55

You do know that you are in a cycle of abuse, don't you? Sometimes it's not very clear to see because we just want them to be so happy, that we will do whatever they want.

So you tell him he needs to stop drinking, and he tells you that he needs sex and if he can't get it from you he will look elsewhere? How does that make you feel. I know I was feeling used.

It felt like if everything didn't go his way, then it was my fault and I should make things better.

He tells you that he thinks you should work on the problems, you bring up something (drinking) he doesn't want to hear it, and tells you that he feels like he is talking to a brick wall? You just weren't saying what he wanted to hear.

Sometimes I think we need to look past the alcoholism. Not all alcoholics are abusive. They are 2 different things. Also alcoholism can be a symptom of something else.

Can you picture yourself with him in the same situation as now, but worse, in 5 years from now, 10 years from now.

I tried to fix my ex for so long to be the person I knew he could, the glimpses of what I saw sometimes, he didn't want to. He liked who he was, either that or he did not want to put in the work, and would prefer if I just tolerated the unacceptable.

(((((((((((hugs))))))))))
amy

dandylion

carmen303....there is no way to put it that won't make him "mad and hate you".
You have to be willing to lose the other person, if necessary. When it comes to addictions---it is most likely that the (drink, in this case) will win out if the person is not in recovery. To the practicing alcoholic-- being able to drink without impunity and keeping their enablers, to boot, is the first priority.

He is going to do what he is going to do. One way, or another. Of course, one option is to "set him free"----and, wait to see what he is going to do (get sober and begin recovering). that will take about 1 to 2 years to get a solid feel if his recovery is "authentic", or not. He will either get better or get worse. It won't stay exactly the same.

You don't want to say that "it is over".....but, you don't want to keep going like this either (taking your own words). This puts you in a sort of suspended limbo, emotionally.....because you are not in control of him! Your happy outcome--the way you see it--is dependent on him stopping drinking. His happy outcome--the way he sees it--is dependent on being able to drink and have you to fall into line with that.
The two of you are not on the same page.

As for the "stages"....you will have to rely on the textbook descriptions---because I put those away long ago....except as a crude measuring stick....It looks to me that he is pretty far along in the mid stages....but, not yet in the really most advanced stage. Since you INSIST on "knowing"...LOL....as a general ball park---it will take him 6mo. to 2yrs. to recover from the most visible mental and physical symptoms that he is showing, now. The inner changes of thinking and attitude and behaviors will take very intensive work on his part and will be a few months to the rest of his life to display. It is a life long endeavor of working on himself. (alcoholism is not cured--but, it can be arrested by sobriety and recovery work).

Carmen--these are general statements--taken from the top of my head--based on my life-long experience. Since you still have so much l earning to do about alcoholism and co-dependency (and your own self)....I am just trying to "ballpark" a few things for you.

I do hope that you are reading lots of the thousands of stories by the others on this forum. It is all in there...LOL!

Something that would be very good for you to read (today!): Go the the "stickies" at the top of this main page....scroll down to near the bottom, to the one labeled "classics".
Find the one titled: "10 ways to know when your addict or alcoholic is full of crap". that is an enormously helpful measuring tool--in my opinion.

It is great to keep learning--I advocate that, actually. However, I do maintain that you have to be willing to let him go. This is so hard to face, I know--because we all have abandonment fears to some extent. Co-dependents usually have an extra big dose of it.

dandylion

honeypig

Carmen, I noticed the same thing that Lexicat did--all your posts are about HIM, how long for him to recover, how long for him to become the person you imagine he can be, etc. A number of folks have suggested that working on YOU will be much more useful than trying to label exactly what stage of alcoholism he is in or determine what behaviors are caused by the alcohol and which are really him. You've started several threads basically asking the same question in different ways.

A lot of times, we do that--ask the question over and over in different ways--b/c we just don't like the answer we're getting. Maybe if I phrase it this way, then people will tell me what I want to hear...? Someone here had a signature line that I just loved. It said "Maybe you don't have a problem at all--you just have a solution that you don't like." I know I've had plenty of "solutions I didn't like" and heard a lot of things I didn't want to hear, especially in the beginning. However, as time went on, I found that the very things that had most offended or hurt me, or that made the least sense to me, turned out to be the same things that gave me the most help and learning later on.

The parts I bolded above are what stood out to me in this thread: "He thinks that I should try to work out our problems." Of course he does, b/c that means HE doesn't have to work out HIS problems. It's so much easier to tell you that it's YOUR problem, and if you don't calm down and act the way he wants you to, well, he's just going to go out and get his sex somewhere else! He knows how you'll feel about that, and it's not by accident that he's saying this to you.

As you mentioned, "nothing changes." There is an Alanon saying: "Nothing changes if nothing changes." You're stumbling onto this bit of wisdom yourself, it would seem. He is willing to change nothing, and you're finding that nothing changes. Yep. That's how it goes.

Again, as others have said, spend some time reading other people's stories. Your situation, sadly, is far from unique. I see that all your posts so far are in the threads you've started yourself. Why not take a look around? I think you'll learn a lot once you do.

happybeingme

Carmen,

It sounds as if your man has you on a yoyo. Up,down,up, down, around the world, sleeping dog. Its only going to continue as long as your okay with it.

I find words to be cheap. Just an exhalation of carbon dioxide with noise. Actions cost. They cost physically, emotionally and mentally. Your man is doing nothing more than exhaling and your trying to hold onto it.

Do you think your man is going to want to invest in the actions needed not only to be in a healthy relationship with you but to get down to the causes and conditions of his alcoholism? As a recovering alcoholic myself I can tell you it ain't for sissies. Its hard work and I will be working on it the rest of my life. Is he someone that wants to do the same? If not than it might be best to just end things now. You have but one life to live dont waste it wondering "what if"

AnvilheadII

you can't fix him. even if you are somehow able to "determine" what stage he is in.....it changes NOTHING. he's a maintenance drinker. his body requires alcohol in some quantity all day, every day. AND he isn't interested in quitting.

let's read that again - HE isn't interested in quitting. or changing. or being anything other than exactly WHAT AND WHO HE IS RIGHT NOW. sobriety looks like a death sentence to him....every cell in his body SCREAMS to keep the alcohol supply flowing. it's what he knows. it's all he knows.

you're beating your head into a brick wall. this is a very telling statement:

no more. I need you to get help

your own wellbeing is now tied up in HIM getting better. you want HIM to do the hard work, make the changes, transform, get BETTER in the hopes that then you will be ok. you are unwilling to do the hard work yourself....to let go, to let him be, and work on making YOU ok independently of him.

obviously anyone in later stage alcoholism is in a not good place. but just because WE think they would benefit from lifelong sobriety doesn't ever mean that is where their life's path will take them. continuing to hammer him about "getting help" and "quitting drinking" is actually counterproductive...he becomes MORE resistant, more hostile, more defensive.

let's imagine someone who is overweight and has poor eating habits. and their well meaning partner hovers over every single bite of food they put in their mouths....you shouldn't eat that, that's bad for you, why don't you have some carrots instead?, why don't you JUST STOP? and every time they go out to eat the partner gives them snide looks when they ask for a double order of fries, tsssk tsssk, wouldn' t you rather have a SALAD? and when their well meaning partner finds that bag of oreos stashed in the glove box, they shame them.....what are you thinking? this stuff will kill you! and then they dump the cookies in the trash. so the person with the eating/weight problem gets better.......at HIDING things. or being outright defiant and eating the ice cream right out of the half gallon container. and their partner says I wish you would just stop....I wish you would lose weight, you'd feel so much better, you'd LOOK so much better. which also sounds a lot like: I don't like you as you are, your body is not acceptable to me, the way you eat embarrasses me, and so I need YOU to change so I will feel different, and when people see us out and about they won't feel sorry for me being with someone LIKE YOU.

carmen303

Thanks everyone. You all are so helpful and have given me a lot to think about.

Anvilhead, you gave me the example to show how hard it is for him and how he may be feeling. Reading that made me think that I'm asking too much of him, even though it is for his health. I don't want him to feel rejected by me. I'm not saying that I don't like him; that's not what I want him to think.

How do I break away, so that he knows that the drinking is the problem, but that I'm not rejecting him? thanks.

LadyinBC

The merry-go-round rides ends when you decide you have had enough of the ride and want to get off. However that decision is up to you.

Tons of red flags in your post, these are just my thoughts and opinions.

As an alcoholic I will never tell anyone I am "recovered" I will always be in recovery. Forever, until the day I die because I will always be an alcoholic.

Take the worst of his behaviour and decide if this is the life you want for yourself for the rest of your life as there is no guarantees even once we quit drinking.

He already knows that his drinking is the problem. Don't make his drinking your problem. You deserve a life of peace and contentment, you deserve someone who treats you like gold. Never settle for anything less than that.

dandylion

carmen....regarding your question about how to speak to him (so he won't get mad and hate me) (so he won't feel like I am rejecting Him).

Here is my suggestion: Just tell him "I love you but I can't live with the drinking".

The short and simple fact. There simply is no way around that fact.
Use only "I" sentences. How you feel---don't use "you" sentences. Don't go into l ong explanations or a long lecture.....you will not make it any "better" if you talk for 3 days.

Carmen...HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE. There is no way on God's Green Earth that he is going to like it....much less agree with you. Expect a lot of protesting and shifting of blame to YOU! Blaming you is the biggest defense of all.
Trust me, carmen....he already knows very well that you object to his drinking (if he admits it or not). He just hopes that he can convince you to live with it, anyway.
I don't think you goal of keeping him happy with no angry or "mad" feelings about your position (boundary) is possible to achieve.

So....based on this....you can avoid him getting ("mad" and "hating you") by accepting his drinking cheerfully and living with the consequences that will come along with it.
You do have a choice...and, every choice we make has a consequence that comes along with it (good or bad).
You just have to decide what is the most important to you and your welfare.

I get the sense that you are not ready to face this, just yet...that you are still in the exploratory, contemplation phase.
If you haven't read "Co-dependent No More"...now would be the perfect time to do it.
It is practically a classic, in these parts.

If you aren't ready to make a stand (boundary)....work on getting your self stronger and getting getting more clarity. If you make a boundary that you can't or won't carry through on....you words will just be hollow to his ears. He will know that you don't mean what you say.

Carmen...there is no easy way to do this. You have no control over his reactions. He has a right to his own feelings---just like you do yours!

dandylion

dancingnow

Oh Carmen, I feel for you. I was in this state you describe and I will never go back. It took two years separated from my AH to get out of that. And yes, we are now back together and my RAH is sober for almost two years and yes, it is of course, not perfect and frankly there are times when I wonder why I wanted to stay married to him but I will never, ever go back to feeling helpless and hopeless.

I will never go back to the place where my thoughts and feelings were twisted and turned until I couldn't know what I was feeling and what was my responsibility and what was his. I am a new person now and when the disease rears its ugly head because it's still there even though there's no drinking, I can step away and move on to what is best for me and for my RAH.

As many here have said focusing on yourself and what's best for you is the best action you can take. I wish you well on your journey. Hugs and prayers.