Logic vs. Insanity and Other Random Thoughts: Warning Small Rant Ahead!
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Logic vs. Insanity and Other Random Thoughts: Warning Small Rant Ahead!
I have been very affected by an alcoholic (my grandson). My entire family has been devastated. We have gone through crises, supported, paid for rehab, supported again, supported some more. We all deeply love the alcoholic in question.
My health has been adversely affected. I am not the same person I once was. I suffer a lot of worry and anxiety, despite the fact that I know there is nothing I can do. For me, it is simply UNBEARABLE to know my grandson has been self-destructive to an extreme degree. I have a lot of other worries, which I will spare you. The gist of it is that I love him and so want him to thrive, versus any alternative.
I have many tools I use - prayer is most effective for me.
I was thinking I don't have that much longer to live (not that any of us know, but I am getting old). I do not WANT to spend the rest of my days being tortured. I do feel like a victim because I CARE what happens to him. That is the hook.
Today I was thinking about the problem logically - he CHOOSES certain behaviors (as we all do) and there are NATURAL CONSEQUENCES to those behaviors. Obviously, when you do self-destructive stuff, the consequences will be negative.
I was having a little fantasy today thinking "What if all of the relatives of alcoholics just were able to simply cut off relationships - instead of "supporting them" . . . I was imagining this to be a huge wake-up call - the news would be reporting the effects of it it would be so significant.
Instead, we who love alcoholics are quaking in our boots, ever-watchful for the slip or the relapse, supporting all the time - not saying what we really think because God knows you can't do that or the alcoholic might have a fit and will no doubt drink over it. You can see I am bitter over my feeling that I am a victim to the alcoholic - I just wish I didn't CARE what happens to him - that is the key.
The Alanon literature professes that you can be in a relationship with an alcoholic and be fine whether they are "drinking or not." I say that is pure B.S. If they ARE drinking, you are coping or are in denial. There is no way you can be happy about that. It just is not possible. I wish they would revise that saying on their little booklet. It is very deceptive and misleading.
Another realization I had is that the alcoholic is one person with SUCH POWER. They have all of these people around them just SUFFERING over what they do or don't do. And I think this part of the equation is also trivialized in any literature I have read - it says something like four people are affected by every alcoholic, but it doesn't go into the day-to-day and describe the years of torture and the negative effects on your life - the anxiety, the worry, etc.
End of rant. Thank you for listening!
My health has been adversely affected. I am not the same person I once was. I suffer a lot of worry and anxiety, despite the fact that I know there is nothing I can do. For me, it is simply UNBEARABLE to know my grandson has been self-destructive to an extreme degree. I have a lot of other worries, which I will spare you. The gist of it is that I love him and so want him to thrive, versus any alternative.
I have many tools I use - prayer is most effective for me.
I was thinking I don't have that much longer to live (not that any of us know, but I am getting old). I do not WANT to spend the rest of my days being tortured. I do feel like a victim because I CARE what happens to him. That is the hook.
Today I was thinking about the problem logically - he CHOOSES certain behaviors (as we all do) and there are NATURAL CONSEQUENCES to those behaviors. Obviously, when you do self-destructive stuff, the consequences will be negative.
I was having a little fantasy today thinking "What if all of the relatives of alcoholics just were able to simply cut off relationships - instead of "supporting them" . . . I was imagining this to be a huge wake-up call - the news would be reporting the effects of it it would be so significant.
Instead, we who love alcoholics are quaking in our boots, ever-watchful for the slip or the relapse, supporting all the time - not saying what we really think because God knows you can't do that or the alcoholic might have a fit and will no doubt drink over it. You can see I am bitter over my feeling that I am a victim to the alcoholic - I just wish I didn't CARE what happens to him - that is the key.
The Alanon literature professes that you can be in a relationship with an alcoholic and be fine whether they are "drinking or not." I say that is pure B.S. If they ARE drinking, you are coping or are in denial. There is no way you can be happy about that. It just is not possible. I wish they would revise that saying on their little booklet. It is very deceptive and misleading.
Another realization I had is that the alcoholic is one person with SUCH POWER. They have all of these people around them just SUFFERING over what they do or don't do. And I think this part of the equation is also trivialized in any literature I have read - it says something like four people are affected by every alcoholic, but it doesn't go into the day-to-day and describe the years of torture and the negative effects on your life - the anxiety, the worry, etc.
End of rant. Thank you for listening!
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"The Alanon literature professes that you can be in a relationship with an alcoholic and be fine whether they are "drinking or not." I say that is pure B.S. If they ARE drinking, you are coping or are in denial. There is no way you can be happy about that. It just is not possible. I wish they would revise that saying on their little booklet. It is very deceptive and misleading.
Another realization I had is that the alcoholic is one person with SUCH POWER. They have all of these people around them just SUFFERING over what they do or don't do. And I think this part of the equation is also trivialized in any literature I have read - it says something like four people are affected by every alcoholic, but it doesn't go into the day-to-day and describe the years of torture and the negative effects on your life - the anxiety, the worry, etc."
I have to agree with you here. It's just where I am too, I guess.
Frankly, I am a little pissed that all my alcoholic has to do is drink to escape the negative feelings.
I hope things get better for you.
Another realization I had is that the alcoholic is one person with SUCH POWER. They have all of these people around them just SUFFERING over what they do or don't do. And I think this part of the equation is also trivialized in any literature I have read - it says something like four people are affected by every alcoholic, but it doesn't go into the day-to-day and describe the years of torture and the negative effects on your life - the anxiety, the worry, etc."
I have to agree with you here. It's just where I am too, I guess.
Frankly, I am a little pissed that all my alcoholic has to do is drink to escape the negative feelings.
I hope things get better for you.
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Thank you. I am reading a book now called "Reclaim Your Life - You and the Alcoholic" and I like it a lot. I also ordered a bunch of other highly recommended books on Amazon, and they were garbage to me - all about the addict and the alcoholic and no real effective ideas about how this affects other people and what can be done about it.
I see myself going through phases - learning and adapting. Right now I am trying to concentrate on my health. I can't control my body when it goes into anxiety when I hear something I perceive as "scary." I have PTSD and am just hoping I can live and be healthy and enjoy some peace before I croak.
I see myself going through phases - learning and adapting. Right now I am trying to concentrate on my health. I can't control my body when it goes into anxiety when I hear something I perceive as "scary." I have PTSD and am just hoping I can live and be healthy and enjoy some peace before I croak.
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"...we can find contentment and even happiness whether the alcoholic is drinking or not."
That's from the opening commonly read at meetings, not in the literature, per se, and it says nothing about "being in a relationship" with an alcoholic. We have discussed at my meetings the difference between voluntary and involuntary relationships with alcoholics. Parent or grandparent vs. spouse or significant other.
But it all boils down to how much power and influence we ALLOW the alcoholic to have in our life. If my well being depends on another person (alcoholic or not) behaving in a certain way, then that is a recipe for unhappiness. In Alanon I have learned to fulfill my own need for happiness and to nurture myself.
The alcoholic relationship that brought me here was voluntary (a long term boyfriend and father of my youngest son), but the alcoholic relationship that shaped my understanding of love growing up was involuntary (my alcoholic father).
It is possible to find happiness when I realize that I am just as important as the alcoholic (or anyone else, for that matter). I can be concerned about someone without having that effect my wellbeing. Worry for another person does not need to consume me so that I lose my sense of self and neglect my own needs. Because of the way I grew up, that is not an automatic response for me, it is something that I have had to learn and practice. I still catch myself going into hyperdrive with worry and future tripping, but that's the thing, I catch myself. I don't stay in that place. I talk myself down from the ledge. I make a conscious choice to do so.
For me that is the meaning of those words. I can choose happiness. I can choose contentment. Or I can choose to worry about things on behalf of other people. I can choose to tie myself in knots over someone else's self-created problems.
I like to thnk that by choosing happiness I am not only helping myself, but those around me.
That's from the opening commonly read at meetings, not in the literature, per se, and it says nothing about "being in a relationship" with an alcoholic. We have discussed at my meetings the difference between voluntary and involuntary relationships with alcoholics. Parent or grandparent vs. spouse or significant other.
But it all boils down to how much power and influence we ALLOW the alcoholic to have in our life. If my well being depends on another person (alcoholic or not) behaving in a certain way, then that is a recipe for unhappiness. In Alanon I have learned to fulfill my own need for happiness and to nurture myself.
The alcoholic relationship that brought me here was voluntary (a long term boyfriend and father of my youngest son), but the alcoholic relationship that shaped my understanding of love growing up was involuntary (my alcoholic father).
It is possible to find happiness when I realize that I am just as important as the alcoholic (or anyone else, for that matter). I can be concerned about someone without having that effect my wellbeing. Worry for another person does not need to consume me so that I lose my sense of self and neglect my own needs. Because of the way I grew up, that is not an automatic response for me, it is something that I have had to learn and practice. I still catch myself going into hyperdrive with worry and future tripping, but that's the thing, I catch myself. I don't stay in that place. I talk myself down from the ledge. I make a conscious choice to do so.
For me that is the meaning of those words. I can choose happiness. I can choose contentment. Or I can choose to worry about things on behalf of other people. I can choose to tie myself in knots over someone else's self-created problems.
I like to thnk that by choosing happiness I am not only helping myself, but those around me.
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With all due respect, I know the drill - my body has a mind of it's own and it is very hard work "talking myself down" - it takes days/weeks, etc. It is not easy. I am tired of having to do that over and over again.
The problem is that I love and care about the person's health and well-being, seemingly more than they do at times . . . and of course, that is the problem . . . but it is not something that can be fixed by information or logic.
I really don't want to argue about this. I know what the Alanon take is . . . I was just having a little rant.
I am glad for you that you have found peace. I am praying that God will allow my body to heal and that I will be able to find peace.
The problem is that I love and care about the person's health and well-being, seemingly more than they do at times . . . and of course, that is the problem . . . but it is not something that can be fixed by information or logic.
I really don't want to argue about this. I know what the Alanon take is . . . I was just having a little rant.
I am glad for you that you have found peace. I am praying that God will allow my body to heal and that I will be able to find peace.
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I receive therapy for my PTSD. That helped me tremendously. I was also on medication for awhile until I was able to begin managing my symptoms through good self care and other techniques. Have you spoken to your PCP or done any type of therapy? PTSD is not something that just "goes away." I wish it did, lol.
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I am doing a lot of different things for my PTSD . . .I have a spiritual counselor who has been extremely helpful, I am reading Cheryl Richardson's book "Extreme Self Care," I use aromatherapy, I get massages and pedi's.
I have been under extreme stress because an elderly relative passed away recently. I noticed today, that I could not catch my breath and that I had developed a habit of not breathing . . . I think what happened is that there were a few days in a row of extreme anxiety when my PTSD was triggered and I had to perform tasks - I think I was in a survival mode and just began to hold my breath. As we know, that is not healthy!
Today I thought I was having a heart attack.
I am extremely afraid of my alcoholic grandson at this point because in my vulnerable state, I feel he has lots of power over my health (don't know how else to portray this). I know this is not "right" and that I "should not" feel this way, but this is how I feel at the moment. I am praying for strength, healing, and guidance and the same for him.
I will continue with my spiritual counselor and hope SOMETHING heals me . . . this has been going on for a long time . . .
I have been under extreme stress because an elderly relative passed away recently. I noticed today, that I could not catch my breath and that I had developed a habit of not breathing . . . I think what happened is that there were a few days in a row of extreme anxiety when my PTSD was triggered and I had to perform tasks - I think I was in a survival mode and just began to hold my breath. As we know, that is not healthy!
Today I thought I was having a heart attack.
I am extremely afraid of my alcoholic grandson at this point because in my vulnerable state, I feel he has lots of power over my health (don't know how else to portray this). I know this is not "right" and that I "should not" feel this way, but this is how I feel at the moment. I am praying for strength, healing, and guidance and the same for him.
I will continue with my spiritual counselor and hope SOMETHING heals me . . . this has been going on for a long time . . .
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I had an acute attack of PTSD a couple of months ago. Even with my techniques it took over my life for nearly a week. Sometimes there's nothing to do but hang on and ride it out. Sorry you are going through that. It is hard and sometimes you just have to wait it out.
I spoke to my therapist afterward and she offered to refer me to the psychiatrist (for medication), but I declined. I think that my attacks are infrequent enough not to need meds all the time. The combination of events that triggered me (ISIS beheadings (my fault for listening to the news) an air show with lots of jets roaring around for a week and a heatwave) are unlikely to occur again anytime soon.
I did learn a helpful meditation technique in my mindfulness class called compassionate meditation. When I feel a strong negative emotion, like fear or panic or sorrow, I can take on that emotion on behalf of others who might be feeling it and release them from their suffering. When I feel a strong positive emotion, joy, love or elation, I can share that emotion with the world through my deep breathing and mantra.
I liked that technique because at least that way even my negative emotions can still have a positive impact.
I spoke to my therapist afterward and she offered to refer me to the psychiatrist (for medication), but I declined. I think that my attacks are infrequent enough not to need meds all the time. The combination of events that triggered me (ISIS beheadings (my fault for listening to the news) an air show with lots of jets roaring around for a week and a heatwave) are unlikely to occur again anytime soon.
I did learn a helpful meditation technique in my mindfulness class called compassionate meditation. When I feel a strong negative emotion, like fear or panic or sorrow, I can take on that emotion on behalf of others who might be feeling it and release them from their suffering. When I feel a strong positive emotion, joy, love or elation, I can share that emotion with the world through my deep breathing and mantra.
I liked that technique because at least that way even my negative emotions can still have a positive impact.
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Ladyscribbler: I have practiced Metta (I think that is what it is called, I would have to look it up), but it is what you described. I have never tried it during a PTSD attack - I will definitely give it a whirl. Thanks for noting that.
I also am against toxic meds - I try to eat organic foods and avoid toxins as much as possible. I am not a fan of popping pills for relief. I figure I have the PTSD and need to deal with it, one way or another. It is just very uncomfortable and on a long term basis, destructive to one's health (i.e., holding my breath and thinking I was having a heart attack).
I am a senior and have been in a caregiving role for several people - to one degree or another - all of the time while working full time at a sales job. I understand that I can no longer perform at that level and don't want to.
I just have a few things I want to do before I die . . . and I want to experience some serenity and peace while I am doing them.
I have had many alcoholics and others with mental problems complicating my life but never have I had such love and concern for the person above my own well-being.
I made a vow to my grandson when he was a baby that I would protect him and that, combined with my natural love for him - and the fact that I helped raise him - make it so hard to process what the current situation. And he is hopefully in a good place now - but I am not . . . so I have to get better or I won't get better! It is "do or die" for me, right now.
I also am against toxic meds - I try to eat organic foods and avoid toxins as much as possible. I am not a fan of popping pills for relief. I figure I have the PTSD and need to deal with it, one way or another. It is just very uncomfortable and on a long term basis, destructive to one's health (i.e., holding my breath and thinking I was having a heart attack).
I am a senior and have been in a caregiving role for several people - to one degree or another - all of the time while working full time at a sales job. I understand that I can no longer perform at that level and don't want to.
I just have a few things I want to do before I die . . . and I want to experience some serenity and peace while I am doing them.
I have had many alcoholics and others with mental problems complicating my life but never have I had such love and concern for the person above my own well-being.
I made a vow to my grandson when he was a baby that I would protect him and that, combined with my natural love for him - and the fact that I helped raise him - make it so hard to process what the current situation. And he is hopefully in a good place now - but I am not . . . so I have to get better or I won't get better! It is "do or die" for me, right now.
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Originally Posted by Hawks 
you are praying to God and still trying to run the show?
Seems counter productive.
Seems counter productive.
I often marvel at how folks on the "other side" seem to have such an easy time letting go. I know that it's really a struggle, but the AA peeps seem so d@mn zen about the whole thing sometimes.
There's a guy in one of my meetings who likes to say, "You can't get mad at alcoholics for drinking, it's what we do."
I always think, "You don't know me very well, if you think I can't get mad at an alcoholic for drinking. It's what I do."
Another reason I love the double winners. I have a lot to learn.
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I think it is possible to be in a relationship with an A and be ok but I think of it as a circle around me and the A outside of the circle. Inside of the circle, for me, doesn't work.
I know some people manage to live with it, for instance continue with a spouse who is an A yet detach. Its only my opinion, but I think it is impossible to be completely happy when an A is very close in our lives. I think in those circumstances its just a longer drawn out way to leave. However, it is possible to keep someone outside of that circle, love and care for them, and go on with life.
I know you have struggled for a long time with your grandson. I think dealing with a spouse, sibling, friend, parent much easier than a child and from the way you describe your relationship - he is more like a child to you. I don't have children, so I can't compare my experiences and while an alcoholic is an alcoholic - I am not sure I would be able to sever ties with a child as easily in the ways that I would someone else.
One point though about "consequences". Often times caregivers absorb the consequences to a great degree themselves. I am not saying there is no consequence for the A - but that there is some form of relief when something bad happens or the problem is solved by someone else. It almost seems like you feel you have to continue to support him. This is where I think Al Anon does come in, because you do not. That's your choice and you are not a victim because he chooses to drink. You seem victimized by your own thought process that you are a bit helpless because you MUST not say things that upset because they may drink and that you have an obligation and are currently doing things you don't want to.
A's only have as much power as we give them. Any person only has as much power as we give them. You fantasize about a life free of this but then in the same statement say because you can't stop caring about him that you spend your days tortured. It seems to me that you have not been able to implement the 3 C's didn't cause it, can't control it and can't cure it. Have you ever set any boundaries with the A's in your life?
I am really sorry that this has caused you such grief. I really am, its clear you love your grandson very much and that his life choices have affected you greatly.
I know some people manage to live with it, for instance continue with a spouse who is an A yet detach. Its only my opinion, but I think it is impossible to be completely happy when an A is very close in our lives. I think in those circumstances its just a longer drawn out way to leave. However, it is possible to keep someone outside of that circle, love and care for them, and go on with life.
I know you have struggled for a long time with your grandson. I think dealing with a spouse, sibling, friend, parent much easier than a child and from the way you describe your relationship - he is more like a child to you. I don't have children, so I can't compare my experiences and while an alcoholic is an alcoholic - I am not sure I would be able to sever ties with a child as easily in the ways that I would someone else.
One point though about "consequences". Often times caregivers absorb the consequences to a great degree themselves. I am not saying there is no consequence for the A - but that there is some form of relief when something bad happens or the problem is solved by someone else. It almost seems like you feel you have to continue to support him. This is where I think Al Anon does come in, because you do not. That's your choice and you are not a victim because he chooses to drink. You seem victimized by your own thought process that you are a bit helpless because you MUST not say things that upset because they may drink and that you have an obligation and are currently doing things you don't want to.
A's only have as much power as we give them. Any person only has as much power as we give them. You fantasize about a life free of this but then in the same statement say because you can't stop caring about him that you spend your days tortured. It seems to me that you have not been able to implement the 3 C's didn't cause it, can't control it and can't cure it. Have you ever set any boundaries with the A's in your life?
I am really sorry that this has caused you such grief. I really am, its clear you love your grandson very much and that his life choices have affected you greatly.
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Seeks- you bring up spirituality and prayer a lot. Have you ever considered God may be trying to help you by bringing you here? That his message to you is what all of these posters are writing to you?
In the end I think you need to realize that all of your pain and suffering is self induced. You have given your grandson total power over your health and happiness. And he doesnt care. Not only that it is unfair to burden anyone with that. Your life is your responsibility and his life is his. If he wants to throw it away you cant stop it but, you can join him and I think thats what you are doing.
In the end I think you need to realize that all of your pain and suffering is self induced. You have given your grandson total power over your health and happiness. And he doesnt care. Not only that it is unfair to burden anyone with that. Your life is your responsibility and his life is his. If he wants to throw it away you cant stop it but, you can join him and I think thats what you are doing.
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Yeah, sometimes it feels like if we "suffer enough" we can somehow redeem the alcoholic.
Realizing that our suffering and sacrificing does not one thing to help is a hard pill to swallow. I've been there with people I loved dearly.
You CAN protect a helpless child, who has no resources to help himself. It's impossible to protect a grown man who has been offered (and rejected) numerous sources of help.
I'm sorry you are suffering so, but just as the alcoholic has to take responsibility for accepting help, family members have to take responsibility for their own well-being. Pain may be inevitable, but suffering is optional.
Realizing that our suffering and sacrificing does not one thing to help is a hard pill to swallow. I've been there with people I loved dearly.
You CAN protect a helpless child, who has no resources to help himself. It's impossible to protect a grown man who has been offered (and rejected) numerous sources of help.
I'm sorry you are suffering so, but just as the alcoholic has to take responsibility for accepting help, family members have to take responsibility for their own well-being. Pain may be inevitable, but suffering is optional.
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seek....I must admit that that "phrase" that you talked about (even if not in published material)....that is often quoted in recovery circles.... drove me nuts, at first. I kept trying to imagine how a person could be totally happy and contented and peaceful and serene while married and living in the same house with an active alcoholic. No matter what?!
I kept trying to wrap my head around that...how could l iving by alanon principles (working the program) allow a person to become totally oblivious to, and unaffected by the chaos destruction that an alcoholic can bring into a home?
There was n o mention that a person was allowed to leave the relationship or, at least, to live at a distance even if love was still in the heart. (the phrase, itself, doesn't allow for that). Leaving is never mentioned as an option....therefore it seem implied that extreme acceptance was a key to serenity and peace---even if the alcoholic was spitting vile and waging war.
I agree that that phrase should be modified or at least explained in a different (better) way.
I absolutely agree that the bonds with a child or parent are very different than the ones with a voluntary romantic union and cannot so easily put asunder. This kind of pain is a whole world of it's own...when it is your own flesh and blood.
I do understand what you are saying, in this regard.
dandylion
I kept trying to wrap my head around that...how could l iving by alanon principles (working the program) allow a person to become totally oblivious to, and unaffected by the chaos destruction that an alcoholic can bring into a home?
There was n o mention that a person was allowed to leave the relationship or, at least, to live at a distance even if love was still in the heart. (the phrase, itself, doesn't allow for that). Leaving is never mentioned as an option....therefore it seem implied that extreme acceptance was a key to serenity and peace---even if the alcoholic was spitting vile and waging war.
I agree that that phrase should be modified or at least explained in a different (better) way.
I absolutely agree that the bonds with a child or parent are very different than the ones with a voluntary romantic union and cannot so easily put asunder. This kind of pain is a whole world of it's own...when it is your own flesh and blood.
I do understand what you are saying, in this regard.
dandylion
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seek, being in alanon/naranon is critical to my own health. have had 3 children get addicted (2--thank you God are adults and leading functional lives--the only thing that helped was to detach from them (when they left home at 18--after doing everything under the sun to help them--that is how I got into my own recovery--realizing that I was suffering more than they were).
Now--a 3rd active addict--I could go crazy over thinking, wondering if I did the wrong things (there was overlap between the addicts and this one was young...and now I was questioning if I should have not let the 2nd one come home...but that was my best thinking at the time and talked over with therapists...so need to let it go and let it be that this daughter is not ready for recovery and me trying to support her is not what she wants...so had to take the steps of realizing she cannot come here to live again...I cannot do what I did the past 1 1/2 years...because my support took me down as she fought so hard & publically and I finally didn't have any strength to deal with it...and am still dealing with the repercussions of that ... yes, the same anxiety, etc that you describe.
I finally found the courage to attend a naranon meeting and I am so happy...and it is right for me...I need more but I can only go at my own pace...and my body is keeping me very slow right now. I am grateful to my body for telling me that it won't let me do anymore of the insanity I was doing...and am grateful to my HP (I call God) for many small, and tiny things that are telling me that if I don't start to learn about self care first--I won't be of any help to my addicts or others who are no longer using but not in recovery which is still bad.
I am glad you are coming here and expressing your feelings and I hope you can tell that we all support you here.
Just focus on you for a bit...it can be almost impossible...at least that is my experience.
I am getting clearer that I need to really work the 3 C's--and they are true for more behaviors than just active using. I am allowing myself to know that in trying to 'save' my 2nd daughter--I went past all healthy boundaries for me...and have done the same for others. I am trying to stay mindful of what I need now when seemingly (& even if researched) 'big crises' come along...because I know that those who have received my care (and thank you God--the experience of living through their reactions when I needed help desperately showed me that I cannot count on support from them...not even positive words and I trigger with negative words...too much verbal abuse in my life) is to take care of me in healthy ways...and I can't really 'think of' or bring them to 'mind' but am working on the actions anyway.
Take care of you and know that your posts and honesty help others (me specifically)--sending love and prayers.
Now--a 3rd active addict--I could go crazy over thinking, wondering if I did the wrong things (there was overlap between the addicts and this one was young...and now I was questioning if I should have not let the 2nd one come home...but that was my best thinking at the time and talked over with therapists...so need to let it go and let it be that this daughter is not ready for recovery and me trying to support her is not what she wants...so had to take the steps of realizing she cannot come here to live again...I cannot do what I did the past 1 1/2 years...because my support took me down as she fought so hard & publically and I finally didn't have any strength to deal with it...and am still dealing with the repercussions of that ... yes, the same anxiety, etc that you describe.
I finally found the courage to attend a naranon meeting and I am so happy...and it is right for me...I need more but I can only go at my own pace...and my body is keeping me very slow right now. I am grateful to my body for telling me that it won't let me do anymore of the insanity I was doing...and am grateful to my HP (I call God) for many small, and tiny things that are telling me that if I don't start to learn about self care first--I won't be of any help to my addicts or others who are no longer using but not in recovery which is still bad.
I am glad you are coming here and expressing your feelings and I hope you can tell that we all support you here.
Just focus on you for a bit...it can be almost impossible...at least that is my experience.
I am getting clearer that I need to really work the 3 C's--and they are true for more behaviors than just active using. I am allowing myself to know that in trying to 'save' my 2nd daughter--I went past all healthy boundaries for me...and have done the same for others. I am trying to stay mindful of what I need now when seemingly (& even if researched) 'big crises' come along...because I know that those who have received my care (and thank you God--the experience of living through their reactions when I needed help desperately showed me that I cannot count on support from them...not even positive words and I trigger with negative words...too much verbal abuse in my life) is to take care of me in healthy ways...and I can't really 'think of' or bring them to 'mind' but am working on the actions anyway.
Take care of you and know that your posts and honesty help others (me specifically)--sending love and prayers.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: west coast
Posts: 1,068
Everyone is different. Everyone has different beliefs. This particular forum does not require a belief in Alanon. I know it is helpful to many and I myself attended for six years, so I know the principles. My own personal beliefs are in a theory of quantum physics - that we are not completely discreet beings - simply put: That we impact each other.
I have been in relationships with alcoholics and know about boundaries and how to set them. I have a different relationship with my grandson, as I helped raise him and his alcoholism started young and I was not aware of it. When you are in a supportive position with a child and then the person gets into trouble and is still considered a child, you don't abandon them and you are hopeful that they will recover (not knowing the depth or breadth of the problem).
My grandson is apparently doing well right now - I am the one who is struggling for many reasons. I have been under a lot of stress for a long time due to this problem and the problems related to caring for other family members. I am getting older. I want to enjoy what is left of my life, yet just judging from the pattern that has happened so far, I can see what could be possible in terms of future stresses, and it just freaks me out.
I have PTSD from childhood trauma and am working with a spiritual counselor.
I imagine most folks here are well-meaning, but to judge me as causing my own suffering is just harsh.
When my feelings and fears arise in the middle of the night, are you telling me I am causing them? Are you saying it is unnatural to want someone you raised and nurtured to be healthy and to be sad and frightened at the prospect of harm being done to their bodies or spirits? Even if the harm is self-inflicted? That kills me knowing he is so tortured by his demons that he would go to such lengths to try to deaden the pain, and no, I don't think I caused it - and I know I can't control or cure it, but none of that is what is driving my suffering. It is simply that I love someone whom I nurtured - meaning, I did things that I thought could/would enhance his health as a child - I was invested in that. I don't know how not to care if he harms himself. That is unbearable to fathom.
I know his choices lead to his own consequences and it is still painful to witness.
There are things in recovery that I do not agree with - the focus is on the alcoholic - they can't really take on the whole family - I get that - it's just that the family is expected to be supportive - but there is little to no support for the family - that is just the way rehabs and the recovery community work. The family is expected to fend for themselves and their feelings cannot be tolerated in the scope of recovery. There is no room for that.
It is also true that IF a person says something to someone who is volatile, they can expect a negative response. For my own benefit, I do not want to get into any arguments - I want to live in peace - I have also been told that it is better to not give your opinions to people in recovery - there are books and literature on the subject of how to talk to them . . . it takes a lot of energy and effort and a certain degree of "walking on eggshells." Anyone who disputes this is not being honest. There are just things you cannot talk about without extreme reactions or arguments ensuing, so it is better to avoid those conversations. But then you have to find a way to deal with YOUR reactions and your feelings.
None of this is simple or black and white. And attending Alanon is awesome for those of you who find it so, but please don't judge others who have a different path. If you are living happy lives with an alcoholic who is drinking (like the literature says you can), then I say you are in massive denial.
Let's cut each other some slack here. We are all doing the best we can and no one has all of the answers.
I was mainly sharing my rant to process a little bit and I also wanted to focus on my health - I noticed I was super stressed, holding my breath, etc. Last night I realized I was dehydrated. I was not taking care of myself - now that is something I would like to talk about - how to take care of oneself and really make oneself Number One. That is what I am working on.
I have been in relationships with alcoholics and know about boundaries and how to set them. I have a different relationship with my grandson, as I helped raise him and his alcoholism started young and I was not aware of it. When you are in a supportive position with a child and then the person gets into trouble and is still considered a child, you don't abandon them and you are hopeful that they will recover (not knowing the depth or breadth of the problem).
My grandson is apparently doing well right now - I am the one who is struggling for many reasons. I have been under a lot of stress for a long time due to this problem and the problems related to caring for other family members. I am getting older. I want to enjoy what is left of my life, yet just judging from the pattern that has happened so far, I can see what could be possible in terms of future stresses, and it just freaks me out.
I have PTSD from childhood trauma and am working with a spiritual counselor.
I imagine most folks here are well-meaning, but to judge me as causing my own suffering is just harsh.
When my feelings and fears arise in the middle of the night, are you telling me I am causing them? Are you saying it is unnatural to want someone you raised and nurtured to be healthy and to be sad and frightened at the prospect of harm being done to their bodies or spirits? Even if the harm is self-inflicted? That kills me knowing he is so tortured by his demons that he would go to such lengths to try to deaden the pain, and no, I don't think I caused it - and I know I can't control or cure it, but none of that is what is driving my suffering. It is simply that I love someone whom I nurtured - meaning, I did things that I thought could/would enhance his health as a child - I was invested in that. I don't know how not to care if he harms himself. That is unbearable to fathom.
I know his choices lead to his own consequences and it is still painful to witness.
There are things in recovery that I do not agree with - the focus is on the alcoholic - they can't really take on the whole family - I get that - it's just that the family is expected to be supportive - but there is little to no support for the family - that is just the way rehabs and the recovery community work. The family is expected to fend for themselves and their feelings cannot be tolerated in the scope of recovery. There is no room for that.
It is also true that IF a person says something to someone who is volatile, they can expect a negative response. For my own benefit, I do not want to get into any arguments - I want to live in peace - I have also been told that it is better to not give your opinions to people in recovery - there are books and literature on the subject of how to talk to them . . . it takes a lot of energy and effort and a certain degree of "walking on eggshells." Anyone who disputes this is not being honest. There are just things you cannot talk about without extreme reactions or arguments ensuing, so it is better to avoid those conversations. But then you have to find a way to deal with YOUR reactions and your feelings.
None of this is simple or black and white. And attending Alanon is awesome for those of you who find it so, but please don't judge others who have a different path. If you are living happy lives with an alcoholic who is drinking (like the literature says you can), then I say you are in massive denial.
Let's cut each other some slack here. We are all doing the best we can and no one has all of the answers.
I was mainly sharing my rant to process a little bit and I also wanted to focus on my health - I noticed I was super stressed, holding my breath, etc. Last night I realized I was dehydrated. I was not taking care of myself - now that is something I would like to talk about - how to take care of oneself and really make oneself Number One. That is what I am working on.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Another realization I had is that the alcoholic is one person with SUCH POWER. They have all of these people around them just SUFFERING over what they do or don't do. And I think this part of the equation is also trivialized in any literature I have read - it says something like four people are affected by every alcoholic, but it doesn't go into the day-to-day and describe the years of torture and the negative effects on your life - the anxiety, the worry, etc."
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
seek, this is a post of yours from three years ago October and at that time you were already obsessed with situations (your words, not my interpretation) that were out of your control. all your worry and circular thinking and obsession haven't CHANGED anything, except to make you sicker and unhealthy (as you have also detailed, including feel like you were having a HEART ATTACK due to stress).
i'd offer you the same advice i'd over to any alcoholic or addict that just can't seem to GET the whole sober thing (which is also something you satted as incomprehensible.....why can't they just stop???).....whatever you are doing, it isn't working. maybe it's time to consider some of the options that others who have been there have found to be successful?
Figuring Out How to Not be Obsessed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not live with my AD, thank God! And I would have little knowledge of her actions if it were not for my relationship with her son (my grandson). I think about him constantly, and provide for him, as much as I can (as she does not) . . .he is living in that environment. He just started college.
I think about them constantly . . . and want to let go of thinking of her at all . . . but I can't get some things out of my mind. She has actively tried to poison him against me - I try not to dwell on that, but it does surface in my consciousness, as do all kinds of other thoughts when I am in her house and see what is going on . . .
When I first noticed her problem, several years ago, I tried to talk to him but he said it did not bother him - I wanted to make sure he had resources. Now, I don't know what is appropriate, re: talking to him about the "reality" of chaos that he lives in . . .on one hand, I want to not collude with denial, on the other hand, it is not my job to bust open his system of denial . . .it is a very difficult line to tread . . .I told him a couple of weeks ago, that if things get bad, he can go here or there . . .
As far as my thinking goes (the obsessive thoughts) . . .it is a little more complex . . .I see him weekly, talk to him more frequently . . .I am aware of things that are bothersome . . .I have resentment towards her for lots of things . . .and I try to work with this through forgiveness exercises . . .but the truth is that our family has practically been singlehandedly destroyed by her actions . . .I don't buy the "alcoholism is a family disease - at least the part that blames the sober and functional family members . . .she has damaged relationships with me and her siblings and it has affected the entire unit, FOR YEARS . . . and that is not easy to come to terms with.
Meanwhile, she is having a blast, "life is good" as she posted on FB . . .the rest of us are coping or trying to pick up the pieces . . .
If I had no interaction with her it would be much, much easier, but as it is, I am aware because of my relationship with my grandson. I worry about him and what is in store for him and just pray constantly for everyone in the family.
I have lots of tools that I use but the number one thing I stumble on is that this is such a big secret . . . there are so many people in denial about what is really going on . . .some people are actively seeming to want the system of denial and I guess that is because they can't deal with the reality.
I want to focus on myself and do go through the motions but waste lots of time and energy thinking about her, and worrying about my grandson's situation. I feel like I am one of the only stable people in his life, so I feel responsible for doing what I can to support him.
Just processing, thanks for listening if you did.
i'd offer you the same advice i'd over to any alcoholic or addict that just can't seem to GET the whole sober thing (which is also something you satted as incomprehensible.....why can't they just stop???).....whatever you are doing, it isn't working. maybe it's time to consider some of the options that others who have been there have found to be successful?
Figuring Out How to Not be Obsessed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not live with my AD, thank God! And I would have little knowledge of her actions if it were not for my relationship with her son (my grandson). I think about him constantly, and provide for him, as much as I can (as she does not) . . .he is living in that environment. He just started college.
I think about them constantly . . . and want to let go of thinking of her at all . . . but I can't get some things out of my mind. She has actively tried to poison him against me - I try not to dwell on that, but it does surface in my consciousness, as do all kinds of other thoughts when I am in her house and see what is going on . . .
When I first noticed her problem, several years ago, I tried to talk to him but he said it did not bother him - I wanted to make sure he had resources. Now, I don't know what is appropriate, re: talking to him about the "reality" of chaos that he lives in . . .on one hand, I want to not collude with denial, on the other hand, it is not my job to bust open his system of denial . . .it is a very difficult line to tread . . .I told him a couple of weeks ago, that if things get bad, he can go here or there . . .
As far as my thinking goes (the obsessive thoughts) . . .it is a little more complex . . .I see him weekly, talk to him more frequently . . .I am aware of things that are bothersome . . .I have resentment towards her for lots of things . . .and I try to work with this through forgiveness exercises . . .but the truth is that our family has practically been singlehandedly destroyed by her actions . . .I don't buy the "alcoholism is a family disease - at least the part that blames the sober and functional family members . . .she has damaged relationships with me and her siblings and it has affected the entire unit, FOR YEARS . . . and that is not easy to come to terms with.
Meanwhile, she is having a blast, "life is good" as she posted on FB . . .the rest of us are coping or trying to pick up the pieces . . .
If I had no interaction with her it would be much, much easier, but as it is, I am aware because of my relationship with my grandson. I worry about him and what is in store for him and just pray constantly for everyone in the family.
I have lots of tools that I use but the number one thing I stumble on is that this is such a big secret . . . there are so many people in denial about what is really going on . . .some people are actively seeming to want the system of denial and I guess that is because they can't deal with the reality.
I want to focus on myself and do go through the motions but waste lots of time and energy thinking about her, and worrying about my grandson's situation. I feel like I am one of the only stable people in his life, so I feel responsible for doing what I can to support him.
Just processing, thanks for listening if you did.
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