Dry Drunk OR Mental Illness . . . may be the Same Thing

Old 11-04-2014, 01:31 PM
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Dry Drunk OR Mental Illness . . . may be the Same Thing

Alcoholism, Borderline Personality Disorder and the Dry Drunk, by Wendy Perkins

Interesting, upfront article . . . .

Alcoholism, Borderline Personality Disorder and the Dry Drunk | Liver Doctor

A slice from it . . . .

=============================

quothe:

The self-centred approach of drinking alcoholics remains unaltered and the rights and feelings of others are ignored. That’s a dry drunk. Doesn’t drink but is not nice to know.

Naturally enough, families expect changes for the better when an alcoholic stops drinking. With dry drunks, things frequently get worse. Confusion, discouragement, bewilderment and resentment flourish in the face of this behaviour and disastrous consequences may follow. The best thing for families to do is to ask for help from someone who specialises in alcoholism. The denial and lack of insight being displayed by a dry drunk are usually too difficult to handle alone.
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Old 11-04-2014, 01:33 PM
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In my opinion, does it even matter? If there is no potential to be happy with that person for whatever reason, there it is.
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:26 PM
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Which is precisely where I am at with my XAH. He was and is much more difficult to deal with while off of mood-altering substances. Honestly I WISH it was so easy as many of my Al-Anon literature suggests... Sometimes, the crazy is just too deep for detachment to handle.
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:46 PM
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Makes total sense. This also mirrors any of the other (formerly called) Cluster B PD's: Histrionic PD, Narcissistic PD, and Antisocial PD. They are supremely difficult to be around regardless of substance abuse. Although, take away the substance and the PD is still there. I cant imagine how horrible it must be to suffer with BPD with all that constant, deep emotional pain.
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:51 PM
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I'm really tired of feeling sorry for him, though-- deep emotional pain or not.
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Old 11-04-2014, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cazzap06 View Post

I just have to trust myself and my ability to love and care for my GS , my focus is the love I have for my GS and taking the best care I can of myself in the pain and discomfort of it all..

I can't say I don't love my DD but I certainly don't LIKE her right now whether she is still drinking or not...If I get my real , well , honest DD back again I might like her again and trust her again but for now , no , it's not happening!!

She can damage my GS and I don't like ANYONE who can damage my GS!
I'm just sending you hugs and wanted to tell you that I can relate to the hurt you're feeling. I'm so sorry that you're daughter's addiction is causing so much pain for you and your grandson. I hope all three of you find recovery and more happiness than you ever had "before".
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Old 11-04-2014, 08:21 PM
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From my own experience, I kind of have the "does it matter?" mentality that hopeful stated up top. In active addiction people are not in their right minds. They display all kinds of whack a doodle behaviors. My husband was becoming really, really abusive towards me near the end of his downward spiral but had never previously exhibited that kind of behavior towards me. He also lied to me. A LOT. But if I'm being honest, the lying has always been there and I just accepted it until it was coupled with all of this other crap.

Whether he's got some kind of mental illness (BTW, I think addiction in and of itself is plenty to ascertain that someone is mentally ill) is really outside of my hoola-hoop. I'm more interested in understanding why I've accepted lies in the first place and what I can do to make sure that I don't accept such crappy treatment in the future and to refuse that behavior in a rational and loving way (mostly loving towards myself).

If your daughter has a mental illness, what can you possibly do about it? Hint: you cannot make her do anything. IMO, this keeps the focus on the alcoholic - whom you cannot control - rather than healing yourself.
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Old 11-04-2014, 08:52 PM
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Alcoholism is a mental illness as far as I'm concerned.

Wet or dry.

"restore us to sanity" ..... it doesn't just mean stopping drinking.

It's in the Al-anon steps too. Two way street don't forget
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Old 11-04-2014, 10:55 PM
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There were definitely days during AM's very short attempts at sobriety when I wished someone would give her a drink. So I'm pretty much in the "Does it matter?" camp, too.
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Old 11-05-2014, 01:05 AM
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Could some of the behaviours be due to brain injury,either temporary or permanent? (although there may be symptoms of pd mixed in with that).After a time,could poor impulse control etc, (which originally was symptomatic of pd) be due to physiological changes? Not a nice mix either way.
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Old 11-05-2014, 04:36 AM
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Nice phrase in this article. 'chronic malcontent.'

My RAH has actually been reading! I still see signs of him trying to reconnect to life. He is on book 2 and has ordered another book. It is so odd to see him reading, but it does indicate his brain is capable of comprehension and sustained concentration as a form of entertainment.

He also is now regularly volunteering at church. In the past he would never have committed to more than a short one time brief event.

Emotionally he is wearing a suit of armor and when I get irritated I fire arrows at it... He could be depressed. He could just be emotionally immature. He could be a lot of things, but I really have never felt the term dry drunk fits in his case. It indicates to me one who is not progressing in their recovery. But the signs are often very small and not very reassuring. I mean am I supposed to clap when he reads a book?!

Overall though it indicates his brain might not be so wacked. I of course am impatient and think 'we' should be further along. So I try to balance time for his recovery against my own desires for my life against the value of having a father in the home for DS. It makes me nauseous to agree that 5 years is a likely realistic recovery timeframe. And he is closing in on 17 mo sober.

Too bad a liver pill is not likely going to fix things as this article suggests...
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Old 11-05-2014, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CodeJob View Post
Nice phrase in this article. 'chronic malcontent.'
I thought I had coined this phrase!!!!! I used to say it about AH...I even used to say he would take out his Box of Malcontent, and mentally rummage around in it....would babble on about all the causes of his malcontent (never anything he was reponsible for), spending a moment examining each Item and discarding it until he 'latched' on to that which i would coin Grande Pooh Bah of All Malcontents for That Evening and then he'd be off...ranting and raving about that one thing....like a bulldog with a bone...gnawing, thrashing, shaking it, licking it until its Meat had been Consummed...(or the bottle) at which point he'd go to bed...satisfied with his evenings work.


Thanks for the article... Interesting even if it was written to sell liver supplements!!!

I thought all my AH traits were caused by alcohol. I now know that's not true, in fact his BPD became more pronounced the more he drank. Partly because his cognitive functioning was deteriorating which meant he couldn't as easily 'mask' those traits, and partly bc his inhibitions were lowered so he didn't care enough to try to mask. But it's all there!!! Alcohols or no alcohols!!!

I was interested in the stats he quotes....I've often thought behaviour described here was more BPD than 'just' alcohol....
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:54 PM
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Hammer, thanks for the post.

Cazza, yes, alcohol can cause or exacerbate mental illness (see photo at link below). Alcohol eats the brain, and it can take the prefrontal cortex (responsible for good judgment and morals) much longer to recover; thus, it's reasonable to assume dry drunks may still have damaged brains/judgment.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gZijMZCWPW...ohol-brain.jpg

Even as dry drunks, alcoholics can still be terribly negligent with children.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:46 PM
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Bill Wilson, in Alcoholics Anonymous:

If the rest of the world would only behave; the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him; and the alcoholic who has lost all and is locked up. Whatever our protestations, are not most of us concerned with ourselves, our resentments, or our self-pity?

Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God's help.

This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom.
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cazzap06 View Post
Thanks stung xx

I do have concern for my DD

I feel there are mental health problems alongside the alcoholism

Can alcoholism CAUSE mental health problems or is it the other way round? Her mental health seemed to decline ALONGSIDE / ALONG WITH the alcoholism so it does concern me that even if she is not drinking at the moment the mental health issues still remain the same or unrectified :-( :-(

I think that is what Hammer was saying? x
This is good horse-cart question. Which came first.

I think substance or alcohol abuse is a distraction and time taken away from thinking about one's current condition and/or predicaments. If high or hung over what is going in one's mind. Thinking about the consequences of one's actions or a headache & nausea. This is one reason why I think maturity or the mental progressive of an individual stops at the time of heavy use/abuse.

I think certain types of individuals gravitate towards a substance and/or over strive for a feeling of well being/euphoria. It's a short cut for many. Alcoholism could probably create mood swings and different levels of mental alertness which in turn affect any disease in the brain.
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Old 11-06-2014, 02:17 AM
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I wonder if it is "easier" to detach from an alcohlic than from someone with a mental illness?

Just remembering the public outcry when Robin Williams took his life: "why did people turn their backs on him"?

Because sometimes you have to walk away to preserve whatever is left of you? Because some things and behaviors are just not acceptable, regardless of the fuel that drives the train?
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Old 11-06-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TerpGal View Post
Makes total sense. This also mirrors any of the other (formerly called) Cluster B PD's: Histrionic PD, Narcissistic PD, and Antisocial PD. They are supremely difficult to be around regardless of substance abuse. Although, take away the substance and the PD is still there. I cant imagine how horrible it must be to suffer with BPD with all that constant, deep emotional pain.
Yeah, this is about where I think the author was heading.

Not so much from damage or brain degradation that alcohol may cause.

But rather more like the Long Term folks that have had the problem(s) start well before Alcohol.

As far as hopeful's observation --

In my opinion, does it even matter? If there is no potential to be happy with that person for whatever reason, there it is.
Probably correct, as well. Like Terpgal noted, there is a High Hill of personal "in the brain" pain to overcome before one could even consider getting well. Like the A, the Mentally Ill person with a Personality Disorder would have to be honest and acknowledge they have one, to move out of the "unfortunates," category . . .

Real insight those 80 years ago in the AA Big Book about "born that way . . . " Cluster B tends to be genetic and cultured traced as inherited.

=======================

AA Chapter 5 How it works | AA | How it works|

How it works

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.
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Old 11-06-2014, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr View Post
Bill Wilson, in Alcoholics Anonymous:

If the rest of the world would only behave; the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him; and the alcoholic who has lost all and is locked up. Whatever our protestations, are not most of us concerned with ourselves, our resentments, or our self-pity?

Selfishness - self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God's help.

This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom.
This would be one of the most accurate explanations from my experience dealing with the alcoholics in my life. The narcissism or whatever it is makes having any type of relationship with these people almost impossible.
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