Progress for me I think
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Progress for me I think
So I talked to my best friend last night for 3 hours. She is in a mess revolving a bad choice of a man too. We discovered that out childhoods were abusive and traumatic on many levels. We have compared childhoods before so we know it was bad for both of us. Last night we realized that we have been 100% conditioned to be abused. We always go for the abusive men bc it's all we know. We were never allowed to have boundries with our mentally ill mothers who destroyed our self esteem and taught us that this is proper treatment. So we seek it out. Not on purpose but we do
We talked about our past relationships and how we keep finding ourselves in bad positions even though we are good girls and there is no reason we shouldn't attract a nice man to be with. We decided that what we know now is our usual doesn't work. We are now creating rules that we will help each other follow in regards to men. We just started making the rules but are unsure of ourselves bc we tend to make bad decisions and these healthy boundries feel wrong to us. We are both very free spirited and a little eccentric. We don't want to not feel like ourselves bc we tied ourselves down to rules that feel wrong. I hope I'm making sense.
Example. We are only available to a new guy on weekends for 3 month. We have work and other normal weekday things and we should not make ourselves so available even if we are. We figured we are making it too easy and a good man won't mind a little work to obtain our full attention
No going to an apartment for 3 months. We don't know them yet and they have no reason to be in our sanctuary of peace and safety. Our home. Until we know and trust them.
Anyway. We just started with our "rules". How are we doing so far?
We talked about our past relationships and how we keep finding ourselves in bad positions even though we are good girls and there is no reason we shouldn't attract a nice man to be with. We decided that what we know now is our usual doesn't work. We are now creating rules that we will help each other follow in regards to men. We just started making the rules but are unsure of ourselves bc we tend to make bad decisions and these healthy boundries feel wrong to us. We are both very free spirited and a little eccentric. We don't want to not feel like ourselves bc we tied ourselves down to rules that feel wrong. I hope I'm making sense.
Example. We are only available to a new guy on weekends for 3 month. We have work and other normal weekday things and we should not make ourselves so available even if we are. We figured we are making it too easy and a good man won't mind a little work to obtain our full attention
No going to an apartment for 3 months. We don't know them yet and they have no reason to be in our sanctuary of peace and safety. Our home. Until we know and trust them.
Anyway. We just started with our "rules". How are we doing so far?
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Sounds like a good start, to me. LOL....it sound so much like the "ground rules" that Steve Harvey (TV personality) speaks of in his books. (they are controversial to a certain extent, though...depending on how you see it).
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I've never seen steve Harvey but I know who he is. I know what we are discovering isn't groundbreaking for normal people. It's just normal. Lol. But we are damaged from birth kind of people and even though we have both been through tons of therapy it didn't seem to work at all for either of us. We have found more "answers" by talking it out for hours on end running circles of conversations. But by the time we finally wrap it up we have usually uncovered some really beneficial knowledge about ourselves. We've been friends for 11 years and I am so lucky to hVe her bc we understand what it's like to be so damn broken from you mother.
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Rules would not have worked for me. I would have found ways around them, because this guy is different...
One thing that would have worked for me would have been introducing a new guy I dated to my friends very quickly. You know, those close good friends who tell you you're being an idiot when you're being an idiot. The ones who are honest with you. And, of course, my family. If I had introduced AXH to my family before we got married, we would never have gotten married. I would have seen the dysfunction in the way he interacted with them.
But mostly, what I think has worked for me is to continue working my recovery, continue going to Al-Anon, continue going to therapy, continue peeling layers off that dang onion, until I felt that I could stand firmly on my own two feet and didn't need a man. And then honoring my gut feeling, stepping on the brakes -- hard -- when I saw a red flag, and NOT SETTLING.
There's a book called "The Secret Life of Prince Charming" by Deb Caletti. I recommend it -- it's a young adult novel, less than 200 pages, and the musings around men and relationships by the women in the book makes me think the author had all these wise women around her telling their stories and she created a plot in order to be able to share them all.
A grandmother in the book talks about how she wanted her granddaughters to never settle for less than 100%. That doesn't mean looking for perfection, but... to not settle for less than you're worth. The metaphor she uses is this: She was looking through her closet and found two blouses and two pairs of pants she had bought on clearance. She had never worn them. The pants were an inch too short and the blouses were both a little too tight across the chest, but they were on clearance! That didn't mean there was anything wrong with the clothes, that the clothes wouldn't have fit someone else -- just that they weren't a perfect fit for her, and yet she got them, rather than paying a little more for something that would fit and that she would actually wear. She realized she had lived her entire life according to that principle -- compromising on her own needs and settling for less than 100% because she didn't really feel she was worth 100%.
That story was a wakeup call for me. That's what I had done my entire life too. Going to the short-date section at the meat counter -- something I would never have done if I had dinner guests. Staying in relationships that weren't good and that I would have advised my friends to get out of.
When I felt I deserved more, I was willing to wait for more.
One thing that would have worked for me would have been introducing a new guy I dated to my friends very quickly. You know, those close good friends who tell you you're being an idiot when you're being an idiot. The ones who are honest with you. And, of course, my family. If I had introduced AXH to my family before we got married, we would never have gotten married. I would have seen the dysfunction in the way he interacted with them.
But mostly, what I think has worked for me is to continue working my recovery, continue going to Al-Anon, continue going to therapy, continue peeling layers off that dang onion, until I felt that I could stand firmly on my own two feet and didn't need a man. And then honoring my gut feeling, stepping on the brakes -- hard -- when I saw a red flag, and NOT SETTLING.
There's a book called "The Secret Life of Prince Charming" by Deb Caletti. I recommend it -- it's a young adult novel, less than 200 pages, and the musings around men and relationships by the women in the book makes me think the author had all these wise women around her telling their stories and she created a plot in order to be able to share them all.
A grandmother in the book talks about how she wanted her granddaughters to never settle for less than 100%. That doesn't mean looking for perfection, but... to not settle for less than you're worth. The metaphor she uses is this: She was looking through her closet and found two blouses and two pairs of pants she had bought on clearance. She had never worn them. The pants were an inch too short and the blouses were both a little too tight across the chest, but they were on clearance! That didn't mean there was anything wrong with the clothes, that the clothes wouldn't have fit someone else -- just that they weren't a perfect fit for her, and yet she got them, rather than paying a little more for something that would fit and that she would actually wear. She realized she had lived her entire life according to that principle -- compromising on her own needs and settling for less than 100% because she didn't really feel she was worth 100%.
That story was a wakeup call for me. That's what I had done my entire life too. Going to the short-date section at the meat counter -- something I would never have done if I had dinner guests. Staying in relationships that weren't good and that I would have advised my friends to get out of.
When I felt I deserved more, I was willing to wait for more.
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I wan to be clear that I am in no way ready or wanting another man right now. I think it's going to take some time. But it's good to have a plan. You never know when you are going to meet someone. Right now I'm still not leaving the house except to go to work.
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Right now I'm still not leaving the house except to go to work.
My life with an A, and the subsequent divorce and custody fight and such, turned me from an extrovert to an introvert. Mostly because I felt like people weren't trustworthy, relationships (even friendships) were too much work, and I'd probably end up being disappointed anyway. But I started noticing that those weekends when I didn't have to work and I only wanted to hole up and pull a blanket over my head, they made me feel worse. So I started doing small trips outside just to interact with people. Go grocery shopping and chat with the checkout clerk. Go for a walk and stop and pet dogs and exchange a few sentences with their owners. Little things like that made it easier for me.
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I really think once this is all over with and we are not longer married and a permanent RO is in place I will quickly get better. I'm still running circles in my head that he will get better and I'm making a mistake by leaving too quickly. I know that's caca. He will not get better. He has only gotten worse in the 3 months we have been married. There is no reason for it to get better. I know stbx is still trying to get this business that he has been trying to do for months now. Every time it get ready to leave something happens with it but then it falls through. I know a lot if the details and it's a lot to work out. His friend is his partner and I think he's crazy for wanting to even think about going into business with him he is so blackout drunk all the time. He will learn his lesson the hard way. An alcoholic is no person to count I. To actually show up for work. I know I shouldn't care what stbx is doing but I'm still connected to him. In a way I think he thinks if he gets this business I'll come back. I won't. The longer I have NC the better I am getting. I'm having a good morning. I think it's because of talking to my BFF about everything for so long last night.
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te easiest thing to do is try taking a year or 2 out from being with anyone and get to know youself and enjoy life just being on your own first
you make men sound to important to you that you must have one so ?
you make men sound to important to you that you must have one so ?
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I've been years and years with no man in the past and am fine being on my own. My BFF has more of a problem not having anyone. She is very isolated and broke. Been outf work for 2 years. Her mom is helping her financially. There are times for her when her date is the only reason she ate that day. So she feels I think that she gets attached really quickly out of financial desperation. She admits that she is desperate. Not for a man but for some relief from the stress. I don't plan on even trying to date for a year or so. I just don't think I can.
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If I'm being honest, my 1st thought after reading your post was that it seems equally codependent to need to define your relationship needs to be the same as a friend. Your post reads: we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we.... Friends lean on & support each other, of course, but dating rules? What happens when one or the other caves - will it lead to resentments & hurt?
I truly think the effort/time/energy is better spent independently digging deeper into this:
I humbly, honestly, truly believe that if you get closer to healing this damage & understanding & accepting the past you won't need "rules" around dating in the future........ because you will naturally develop boundaries which are so much healthier for you!
I truly think the effort/time/energy is better spent independently digging deeper into this:
we realized that we have been 100% conditioned to be abused. We always go for the abusive men bc it's all we know. We were never allowed to have boundries with our mentally ill mothers who destroyed our self esteem and taught us that this is proper treatment. So we seek it out.
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I've been waiting almost 40 years and been through TONS of therapy waiting for me to "develop" these boundary skills. It is not working for me and it is not working for my BFF who has had even more therapy than me. She is over an hour away with no traffic but the last time I went to see her it took me 3 hours to get there with traffic. So it's not like we can see each other much. Neither one of us has the money to drive back and forth. If one of us "caves" we will be there for each other to say well...that was a slip but it's ok.
I don't know how many of you are completely friensless and familyless where you live but it makes having a social life very difficult. I haven't even lived here 2 years yet and any "friends" I had before I met stbx are long long gone never to return. I am broke and alone going through a divorce with a mentally ill abusive man and I'm trying to help my son (20 years old). It's a lot to take on with no support.
I just think that what we have been doing is not working. Reading books, going to therapy. It's not like either one of us hasn't put in the work. We have. BUt for whatever reason it's not working for us. I have learned that if you keep exhibiting the same behavior you have no right to expect a different outcome. So at least this is us "seeing" some of our issues for what they are and trying to do something different. Healthy boundaries feel wrong to us so making "rules" will help force us to do something that feels wrong. We are hoping it will help guide us so that eventually we don't "need" the rules anymore because we have forced ourselves to feel what healthy feels like.
I don't know. I'm doing the best I can with what I have to work with. A bad picker and terrible habits.
I don't know how many of you are completely friensless and familyless where you live but it makes having a social life very difficult. I haven't even lived here 2 years yet and any "friends" I had before I met stbx are long long gone never to return. I am broke and alone going through a divorce with a mentally ill abusive man and I'm trying to help my son (20 years old). It's a lot to take on with no support.
I just think that what we have been doing is not working. Reading books, going to therapy. It's not like either one of us hasn't put in the work. We have. BUt for whatever reason it's not working for us. I have learned that if you keep exhibiting the same behavior you have no right to expect a different outcome. So at least this is us "seeing" some of our issues for what they are and trying to do something different. Healthy boundaries feel wrong to us so making "rules" will help force us to do something that feels wrong. We are hoping it will help guide us so that eventually we don't "need" the rules anymore because we have forced ourselves to feel what healthy feels like.
I don't know. I'm doing the best I can with what I have to work with. A bad picker and terrible habits.
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and I keep saying us us us...we we we..because we are going through the same thing and having the same problems for seemingly the same basic reasons. So it is we. I'm not trying to sound defensive it's just hard when you've done the therapy and read the books and done the work but your still screwed up. I just feel eternally broken. 
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Originally Posted by mischa1 
and I keep saying us us us...we we we..because we are going through the same thing and having the same problems for seemingly the same basic reasons. So it is we. I'm not trying to sound defensive it's just hard when you've done the therapy and read the books and done the work but your still screwed up. I just feel eternally broken.
I just want to say that for me this is when the therapy really started to dig up the layers that I needed to look at, and examine.
I had to get to the painful stuff, and the root of the problem so it could be cleaned out.
My analogy for this is a wound. A big one. You cannot close a wound up with puss and infection inside of it....you have to open it, clean it out and THEN you can sew it up.
It was the breakdown of my relationship that got me dealing with the deep, hard stuff. I was fortunate I did have therapy for a long time before that (because I had a foundation for the hard work that needed to happen).
Though no abuse like you speak of I had been in recovery from an eating disorder when I got into a relationship with a problem drinker. Though I had to work many angles of recovery to heal from both eventually I got to see how each individual recovery complemented each other.
Don't give up on yourself yet. I suspect you are just getting ready to turn a really big corner.
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I'm not trying to make you defensive mischa, I'm sorry if I touched a nerve. I agree that trying the same things over & over & expecting different results never works.
So, if you've been through tons of therapy, what tools did it bring you? What have you tried that failed? (you don't have to answer here) Therapy alone won't bring us that awesome AHA moment, it's not something that just "happens" or develops one day because we've put the time in. After what you've just gone through, can you mentally playback the tapes from therapy & see any warnings or patterns that you may have missed before? Reading stuff is great but it isn't until I put it into action IRL that I see change. I am always most uncomfortable before a big breakthrough.
I may not be completely friend-and-family-less where I live but they are not the reason that I was able to meet new people & widen my social circle (which is still in progress, it's an area I am lacking in)..... I reached out to completely new groups & activities where I was on my own, solo, in order to meet other people & expose myself to new ideas.
Keep going - like LifeRecovery said, you may be on the edge of turning a big corner!
So, if you've been through tons of therapy, what tools did it bring you? What have you tried that failed? (you don't have to answer here) Therapy alone won't bring us that awesome AHA moment, it's not something that just "happens" or develops one day because we've put the time in. After what you've just gone through, can you mentally playback the tapes from therapy & see any warnings or patterns that you may have missed before? Reading stuff is great but it isn't until I put it into action IRL that I see change. I am always most uncomfortable before a big breakthrough.
I may not be completely friend-and-family-less where I live but they are not the reason that I was able to meet new people & widen my social circle (which is still in progress, it's an area I am lacking in)..... I reached out to completely new groups & activities where I was on my own, solo, in order to meet other people & expose myself to new ideas.
Keep going - like LifeRecovery said, you may be on the edge of turning a big corner!
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Firesprite
Thanks. It's just so damn hard. I also think I am about to stumble onto something really big. Looking back I see all the signs I missed. The "gut" feeling i ignored. Every time I ignore that it turns out bad. I just need to trust myself more. I'm getting there. I'm trying to look at all this trauma and loss as what needed to happen for me to "find" myself for real. I hope so.
Thanks. It's just so damn hard. I also think I am about to stumble onto something really big. Looking back I see all the signs I missed. The "gut" feeling i ignored. Every time I ignore that it turns out bad. I just need to trust myself more. I'm getting there. I'm trying to look at all this trauma and loss as what needed to happen for me to "find" myself for real. I hope so.
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I had a history not so much of abusive relationships, at least, not until the last few years - more a question of trying very, very hard with guys who just weren't interested.
I, too, have had a lot of therapy and come a long way. I was still having **** relationships with men, though.
I found that attending Alanon meetings touched the parts that all the therapy didn't reach. I had a brief relationship since breaking up with my alcoholic ex-partner, but realised the guy, although very pleasant, was still far too involved emotionally with his ex to be available to me. Instead of hanging on in there, eating my heart out, I shared my thoughts and we parted amicably. There's no way my younger self would have managed that!
If I found myself setting out rules for when I would or wouldn't be available to a man, I'd think that maybe I'd got this back to front. My first concern would be to have a full, rich life with or without a man. If I met someone I'd hope that we had common interests, and that there would be activities we could share without either of us losing our identity. Those might or might not be in 'permitted' time.
If I found myself deliberately building in distance, I'd think maybe I wasn't ready for this relationship - if life is already rich and busy, the time apart would arise naturally.
If my guts are telling me something's off, they're right - though sometimes it might take a little while to work out what it is. Intuition works far more quickly than so-called 'rational' thinking.
OP - it sounds as though your intuition is quite firmly in place. The really big thing for you will be listening to it, and ignoring the voice of wishful thinking!
I, too, have had a lot of therapy and come a long way. I was still having **** relationships with men, though.
I found that attending Alanon meetings touched the parts that all the therapy didn't reach. I had a brief relationship since breaking up with my alcoholic ex-partner, but realised the guy, although very pleasant, was still far too involved emotionally with his ex to be available to me. Instead of hanging on in there, eating my heart out, I shared my thoughts and we parted amicably. There's no way my younger self would have managed that!
If I found myself setting out rules for when I would or wouldn't be available to a man, I'd think that maybe I'd got this back to front. My first concern would be to have a full, rich life with or without a man. If I met someone I'd hope that we had common interests, and that there would be activities we could share without either of us losing our identity. Those might or might not be in 'permitted' time.
If I found myself deliberately building in distance, I'd think maybe I wasn't ready for this relationship - if life is already rich and busy, the time apart would arise naturally.
If my guts are telling me something's off, they're right - though sometimes it might take a little while to work out what it is. Intuition works far more quickly than so-called 'rational' thinking.
OP - it sounds as though your intuition is quite firmly in place. The really big thing for you will be listening to it, and ignoring the voice of wishful thinking!
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