dandylion

Stung....to be very honest...that is true. Kind of like the lady on the Old Dutch Cleanser can.....

But, I realize that it is not completely fair (or necessarily accurate). On the internet..we only get to "see" that which is presented to us...and, then we draw mental pictures based on that information, alone.

I remember that, once, there was a radio personality that I listen to daily for a very long time. Then I had the occassion to meet him at a fundraiser (for a homeless dog shelter) and got to talk to him, privately for a good while. His real life persona was so different to me than his on air personality. I was amazed.

dandylion

Hawks

Not really.

But take a step back & ask ... why did I put myself in this position in the first place ?

Did you enter the relationship thinking you could change him or that if he loved you, he should or would change for you ?

In my experience, the wives or husbands who stay & stay with their alcoholic have a strong rescuing nature, coupled with a very strong will to run everything their way & seek to fix everything to their liking regardless of consequences

"I do want to control the situation - I cannot tell you how many times I have thought about nabbing his phone in the middle of the night and blocking them all "

and

"getting rid of the dog without any input from him is kind of a big thing"

It's not all him Stung, takes two to tango and I'm tipping if you can get through the work in the Al-anon steps ... you'll come out a much gentler, kinder person.

At this stage, you seem to be taking an "I give as good as I get" or tit for tat approach ...... Hows that working out ?

I've lived in it, so I kind of already know how it works out.

Not much fun to say the least.

FireSprite

Well, I'm going to go against the grain a bit here & say yes, I do believe it is possible. Not easy or quick or rational, but definitely possible.

But first he has to acknowledge that these relationships are triggers for his anger & seek to manage and/or change it.. Then he can get around to Acceptance- accepting that they are not seeking change & that this is the best their relationship is ever going to be. Then, he'd likely find it necessary to create some tough boundaries for himself & enforce them...... but until he Accepts them as they are & recognizes their relationship as toxic & damaging, it's just you Mama Bear-ing him.

I know how it is Stung - my RAH's FOO is so toxic to him that I used to want to physically pull my hair out after he had interactions with them. Anger wasn't his issue - he'd slip into dark depressions & "miss" this family that only existed in his mind.... the reality of who they are was never what he wanted to believe of them & then every simple conversation set him off into a moody depression that could last hours or days. And he kept going back to that dry well for water again & again & again & again...... it drove ME bat$hit because I could very clearly see the pain it was causing him.

I (like you already have) figured out I could only create boundaries for myself & DD where they were concerned & that he had to put on his Big Boy Pants & do the same for himself. I could not control it for him & I also realized that letting it get to me on the level that it did WAS my fault, it didn't have to be that way. Just my $.02.

When he finally realized that they are never going to change because this is WHO they are (especially his mom) then it got a little easier each time, but it has literally taken YEARS to get to this point. He's had to accept that their relationship is just a bunch of "fluff" at this point, he's stays pretty detached & they talk about shallow, surface stuff. He may still have to address some issues in the future with his mom especially - he has only just started to dig into some of his deep, deep damage where she is concerned but for now he's happy keeping her at arm's length & not allowing her to have contact with DD.

When he first created & enforced his boundaries with his mom she retaliated by going NC with him for 2 years in an effort to punish him.


It was the BEST 2 years EVER, lol!

redatlanta

I think the problem is more how hubby handles is anger/irritation/frustration. I doubt FOO is the only time you deal with this issue.

Yes its possible to deal with toxic people and not be affected by them. Hopefully as RAH continues to work his program he will start laying down boundaries with FOO. You said she called many times and he finally answered but apparently did not want to talk to her. This is his problem right there - no boundaries.

Such a hard situation Stung with FOO. I like my In-laws but not when they are together man its terrible - the fighting never stops. So we no longer do things with them together. Took awhile for RAH to agree but I laid my boundary down long before inclusive of not wanting a recap of how horrible time spent with them was. Now if he spends time with them together who is the fool?

SabrinaQ

I've just finished a book that gives some very interesting perspectives on families and their dynamiczzz...
The examples given are from all kinds of families, from slightly disfunctional, to super-disfunctional.
( those of us that have addiction in the family automatically go under the second category ha ha ha)
It's called 'The Dance of Intimacy', by Harriet Lerner.
I only bought the book because people on SR have recommended this writer, so thank you whoever you were.

I had read something about family systems before,but it was too complicated and gave me a headache,
but this was fun to read and made me feel like I can deal with my family better, in the future.

MissFixit

Well, I don't know if I should qualify my NO vote, but I will so here it goes.

Ultimately, it is our choice to allow toxic people into our lives. A choice. So, if we are so healthy and detached that we can interact with a toxic person without being affected by their negativity, why in the hell are we choosing to interact with said toxic person??? Biological relationships are not exceptions. Even though those relationships are much harder to disconnect from, it is still our choice to maintain them or involve ourselves in them.

So, IMO, if we are healthy we seek healthy relationships. If we are unhealthy we seek unhealthy relationships. If we are maintaining relationships with toxic people, then we are unhealthy too on some level otherwise we would not allow the craziness.

CodeJob

Stung, you probably would have been better off Rehoming RAH and keeping the dog...

Stung

I find your quote here to be wholly inaccurate. I didn't get rid of my dog in a act of vengeance. For all intents and purposes I have been a single mom for past year and I was walking my dog daily but she was always lunging at people (not aggressively she was just one of those crazy enthusiastic dogs). It wasn't a big deal when I was walking her by myself but being a single parent doesn't leave much time for solo walks with the dog. So she was basically living a life of solitude because I didn't have the time or resources to properly care for and mostly train her. I still don't have those resources and neither does RAH. She's in a home now where people have time for her. My dog was my college graduation gift from RAH and it made me very sad to let her go but it's in her and my best interest that she isn't here anymore. Not being able to adequately take care of my dog made me feel like a huge failure, especially when I have two high needs young children. It was too much on MY plate and there is no shame in admitting to that and then taking action. Life went on whether RAH was in rehab or not. His ego didn't like that he wasn't involved in the decision and obviously he was sad that our dog wasn't here. I understand, I was sad too but that suruation wasn't working for the dog or me anymore. It's not tit for tat.

dandylion

Stung.....I agree that the best interest of the dog was being served....if she has more daily companionship in her new home. The additional information that you give makes that much more understandable.
I am assuming, of course that he was not going to be available to care for the dog properly, either!

dandylion

***One of my dogs came to me from just such a situation. The familly was very tearful and brought me their dog with lots of tears. I made it an "open adoption" and the family was free to stop by and visit with the dog at any time and stay with her as long as they needed. they did that several times over the next months.
A dog is truly a family member and, usually that kind of agonizing and painful decision is made with all parties sharing the pain together.

biminiblue

Really great book. It was instrumental to me learning so much about my relationships with toxic/evil/narcissistic people.

Whatever word you use to describe them, the effect is the same.

firebolt

What does FOO mean? Sorry if it's obvious. I didn't see it in the acronym list in the stickies.

biminiblue

Family Of Origin

firebolt

AHH thank you!

Hammer

We have a girl in my Alanon group who did that.

He went to prison, she got his dog.

She wound up loving the dog so much, and did so good with training him, she is now working in a job caring for and training dogs.

As far as the bf in prison. She does not seem so worried about him anymore.

Hammer

Yeah, was not going to beat that to death on Stung's thread, but thanks for the concise explanation.

Many of us have seen SO MUCH of this without even being aware of what we are dealing with. That was why I was recommending it for Stung.

I had read it and said I thought it was pretty good -- probably 8 years back, now. But Mrs. Hammer's head exploded when she read that book. She acted like they were talking about her. I just thought that was strange. Little did I know.

After she came back from Rehab, and now that I have a MUCH better understanding of things, I have watched her go into Dysregulated rants about how much she HATES that book. Go Figure.

Stung

I have seen People of the Lie mentioned frequently when reading about NPD stuff and have often seen NPDers referred to as evil. Al-anon related books have me maxed out as far as self help reading goes at the moment. I'm currently reading To Rise Again At A Decent Hour by Joshua Ferris, it's basically about a dysfunctional, perfectionist, judgmental douche who goes through a spiritual awakening and becomes less of a douche. It's a great read and very fitting for me at the moment. Next on my list is The Shack.

Hammer

Sure. Understood and agree.

Even Solomon cautioned --

"There is no end to the writing of books, and too much study will wear you out."

The cross connection to the "evil" aspect that M. Scott Peck observed is sort of from the full title, itself . . . .

People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil

Not to be a spoiler, but Peck's observation after taking this on a study topic is this: Where there is Evil, there is ALWAYS a Lie.

So when you start to see Lies . . . you know what you are dealing with. (or great selfishness, or great Narcissism, etc. -- all the same thing, if you consider the nature of the word -- Evil = dEvil -- and the Fall of Satan -- it was ALL based on Satan's Narcissism . . . . That is how Satan is termed "The Father of Lies."

Do not want to wear it out tonight . . . but for the contrast, look at the requirements to succeed on the 12 Step Programs . . . .

=================

How it works

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Stung

Agree to disagree.

A human?

People lie and they do it a lot. People walk out of stores knowing that something in their cart wasn't paid for, they return books late to the library, they don't pay the amounts that they agreed to on their mortgages, they pay bills late, they are in denial about one thing or another. Those are all forms of not being impeccable with their word but that doesn't make them evil. The act of lying isn't evil in my very humble opinion.

I think bad people lie about doing bad things but the bad activities are what qualifies them as being a part of the evil category, not the deception. Even children lie. Even your little angels have lied before, they're not evil.

Evil is an extreme word. Lying is a mundane part of everyday life. People lie and they err.

My drivers license still doesn't have the honest weight for me. Not evil.

Florence

I had to re home two of my cats. I had four when XAH and I were together. That's way too much for a single mom with two kids to deal with. I get it. It's a sane and kind thing to do.

This all rings very familiar to me, but instead of diving into the details, I'll take the 10000 foot view. You're in a tenuous place right now, getting comfortable with new tools, trying to rebuild a healthier support system, and probably worries about how your future with a fresh RAH is going to play out. But this, like everything else, can't be managed. Mind your side of the street, reflect on and maintain boundaries that are safe and good for you, and be a support for your RAH while letting the rest be what it is. The family ain't changing, he might be lost to them, he might have the strength to prevail. You don't know yet. Just keep doing you. Seek out the relationships that fortify you.

Hawks

seems I was wrong in trying to help you.

I'll stop handing you any more ammunition.

Good luck with this one ladies