Double Whammy
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 14
Double Whammy
Been reading a lot on this site lately and really felt like I need to just release. So I figured this would be a decent place to do it.
About 6 weeks ago my wife of 6 years (9 year relationship) came clean to cheating on me. The first time was 5 months ago, followed by more incidents 2 months ago.
My wife is as ACOA as you can get and was the hero of her family. Honestly her childhood story is absolutely awful. It involves, seeing lots of physical violence, no father, home invasion by SWOT, and CPS. Yet this woman not only survived and is successful by her family standards, but highly successful by any metric. She started drinking young, but never to excess primarily because her first boyfriend was almost as bad as her mother, so she had to continue to play the hero role. After he went to prison they broke it off and we started dating.
My background is more normal although I have addiction background as well. My mother's father was a closet gay who medicated with alcohol. My mother who was very much the hero of her family became addicted to painkillers while I was in High School. I honestly didn't really notice as my family was always very compartmentalized and secretive, so I didn't know until about 2 years ago. Sadly enough I also didn't know my grandfather was a closet gay until 2 years ago as well. The only reason I ever found out was because of a failed intervention attempt with my mother.
So about a week into my relationship with my wife, she had her first ever blackout event. Throughout our relationship I would say she averaged 1 or 2 'bad nights' a year. Other than that, drinking was part of our life and was good. Hell I would be the first to line her up a drink as it often led to a 'lucky' night for me.
9 years later, we have 2 young kids (she never drank during the pregnancies), we are both highly successful individuals, and have a wealth of great memories both non alcoholic based and alcoholic based.
Yet now there is the cheating. About a week after she confessed we both came to the conclusion she was a alcoholic. She actually admitted it to herself a day before I believed it. She is now about 45 days into AA, going to 3 meetings a week as well as a weekly therapy session and has a sponsor (working step 2 with her sponsor). I am going to 2 Al-Anon meetings a week as well as a weekly therapy session. I want to stay with with the sober version of this woman, I truly believe if not for the alcoholism it would not have happened. I am trying my best to heal myself and work my steps.
The hardest part for me, is SHE doesn't know if she wants to stay in the relationship. This is my double whammy. I was cheated on because SHE is an alcoholic and yet SHE doesn't know if she wants to be with me. I know I can't control her decision but it doesn't soften the hurt I feel. She loves our children, and she doesn't want to be her mother and carry her unfinished business onto our kids. She says she loves me too, and she has recommitted to me while she goes through this process (AA Steps). But she holds herself back from me. She says she is still trying to identify all the different voices in her head and figure out which ones are the alcoholic and which ones aren't. I'm not going to lie and say the wounds of her cheating have healed, I still circle through anger, pain, sadness, loneliness, and acceptance on almost a daily basis. But I know if this woman can find the healthy path I still want to spend my life with her. I feel sad and lonely when we aren't together, and happy and content when we are together. I tried purposefully pushing myself from her, thinking distance would help with my codependency and healing. Yet my higher power keeps telling me finding happiness with my wife isn't wrong. I want my wife back so badly, and I keep trying to give it up to my higher power and find patience because I know pushing only makes it worse, but AAAAHHH the loneliness hurts so bad!!!
Anyways... thanks for reading... one day at a time... right?
About 6 weeks ago my wife of 6 years (9 year relationship) came clean to cheating on me. The first time was 5 months ago, followed by more incidents 2 months ago.
My wife is as ACOA as you can get and was the hero of her family. Honestly her childhood story is absolutely awful. It involves, seeing lots of physical violence, no father, home invasion by SWOT, and CPS. Yet this woman not only survived and is successful by her family standards, but highly successful by any metric. She started drinking young, but never to excess primarily because her first boyfriend was almost as bad as her mother, so she had to continue to play the hero role. After he went to prison they broke it off and we started dating.
My background is more normal although I have addiction background as well. My mother's father was a closet gay who medicated with alcohol. My mother who was very much the hero of her family became addicted to painkillers while I was in High School. I honestly didn't really notice as my family was always very compartmentalized and secretive, so I didn't know until about 2 years ago. Sadly enough I also didn't know my grandfather was a closet gay until 2 years ago as well. The only reason I ever found out was because of a failed intervention attempt with my mother.
So about a week into my relationship with my wife, she had her first ever blackout event. Throughout our relationship I would say she averaged 1 or 2 'bad nights' a year. Other than that, drinking was part of our life and was good. Hell I would be the first to line her up a drink as it often led to a 'lucky' night for me.
9 years later, we have 2 young kids (she never drank during the pregnancies), we are both highly successful individuals, and have a wealth of great memories both non alcoholic based and alcoholic based.
Yet now there is the cheating. About a week after she confessed we both came to the conclusion she was a alcoholic. She actually admitted it to herself a day before I believed it. She is now about 45 days into AA, going to 3 meetings a week as well as a weekly therapy session and has a sponsor (working step 2 with her sponsor). I am going to 2 Al-Anon meetings a week as well as a weekly therapy session. I want to stay with with the sober version of this woman, I truly believe if not for the alcoholism it would not have happened. I am trying my best to heal myself and work my steps.
The hardest part for me, is SHE doesn't know if she wants to stay in the relationship. This is my double whammy. I was cheated on because SHE is an alcoholic and yet SHE doesn't know if she wants to be with me. I know I can't control her decision but it doesn't soften the hurt I feel. She loves our children, and she doesn't want to be her mother and carry her unfinished business onto our kids. She says she loves me too, and she has recommitted to me while she goes through this process (AA Steps). But she holds herself back from me. She says she is still trying to identify all the different voices in her head and figure out which ones are the alcoholic and which ones aren't. I'm not going to lie and say the wounds of her cheating have healed, I still circle through anger, pain, sadness, loneliness, and acceptance on almost a daily basis. But I know if this woman can find the healthy path I still want to spend my life with her. I feel sad and lonely when we aren't together, and happy and content when we are together. I tried purposefully pushing myself from her, thinking distance would help with my codependency and healing. Yet my higher power keeps telling me finding happiness with my wife isn't wrong. I want my wife back so badly, and I keep trying to give it up to my higher power and find patience because I know pushing only makes it worse, but AAAAHHH the loneliness hurts so bad!!!
Anyways... thanks for reading... one day at a time... right?
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
I'm so sorry that you're hurting. That only thing that jumped out at me here is that you think she cheated because she's an alcoholic and in my experience (albeit it's limited to my own experiences in life and in recovery) alcoholism doesn't make people cheat. Being an alcoholic and a cheater are two different animals from what I've learned and read. I guess just be cautious when excusing that behavior to alcoholism.
Sober since 10th April 2012
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,047
naddur, both you and your wife sound like sincere people who've had a lot to cope with. It tends to surface eventually.
I am a sober alcoholic, and I cheated on my husband. I didn't set out to, it just happened in the workplace where I met someone who I still consider to be the love of my life (haven't seen him for years). Looking back, I can see that he fulfilled a longing in me which my husband couldn't meet. There were problems with my marriage I was barely aware of until it happened. I wasn't drinking at that time.
I wish I could give you more comfort about now and the future. All I can say is don't give up, get marriage counselling and individual counselling too. Continue with Al-anon. Give your wife some space, but don't let her off the hook on family duties either. You have the right to be angry, and suppressing anger to save your marriage doesn't work in the end. It's going to come out and, within reason, it's good for your wife to see it.
I am a sober alcoholic, and I cheated on my husband. I didn't set out to, it just happened in the workplace where I met someone who I still consider to be the love of my life (haven't seen him for years). Looking back, I can see that he fulfilled a longing in me which my husband couldn't meet. There were problems with my marriage I was barely aware of until it happened. I wasn't drinking at that time.
I wish I could give you more comfort about now and the future. All I can say is don't give up, get marriage counselling and individual counselling too. Continue with Al-anon. Give your wife some space, but don't let her off the hook on family duties either. You have the right to be angry, and suppressing anger to save your marriage doesn't work in the end. It's going to come out and, within reason, it's good for your wife to see it.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 14
To be honest I kinda wish she would say the first guy was more than just sex. The action is just SO much like her mother. A mother who is horribly sad and alone because anytime a good man comes around, she cheats on him and runs him away. It is easy to be detached from my mother in law and say with confidence she lives in a world where she doesn't feel she is good enough for the good guys and quickly sabotages herself.
My wife couldn't even say she cheated to my face she had to give me a letter and laid there while I read it. She called me her best friend in the letter. Truly our emotional relationship is amazing. It is the only reason I am still around honestly. We are each other's confidants. Our physical relationship is tattered. She calls me attractive, more attractive than either of the guys she cheated on me with. I've been with this woman long enough to know when she lies, the last 3 times she cheated on me I actually knew it but literally altered my reality so I could lie to myself. She called me good in bed. But she said something was missing. That was right after she told me (not drunk but still drinking). A couple weeks after admitting she was a alcoholic she admits without alcohol she would have never cheated the first time. She occasionally says she loves me now, although even if our marriage didn't work I am pretty sure she would still love me. She actually called our therapist after the first time (she didn't answer) then she decided she was going to act like it never happened and told the therapist it was just a bad drunk night on the return call.
It took her 2 months of drinking 5 or 6 nights a week to become a repeat offender. Which I went along with because her her sex drive had ramped up about 2 weeks before the conference where she first cheated on me. She hooked up with the first guy 3 more times before ending it with him. Then she got blackout drunk and woke up next to another guy at another conference. She doesn't deny sex, as she said she confirmed that part with the guy, but doesn't have any recollection of any of it. She calls that her rock bottom.
Coworkers keep complimenting her at work how good I look right now and she mentions it to me as if shes annoyed by it. I am in the best shape I have been in years partially from 3 months of lack of appetite while I altered my reality to believe she would never cheat on me, and now 2 months of going to the gym to take care of myself. She is also constantly beating herself up (silently but I can tell) because our 1 year old is absolutely a daddy's girl.
Our sex life was always a little needy on my part as I am usually the one who wanted more sex, which is all the more reason I was floored. I would try and talk to her about it every once in a while during our relationship, but she didn't like to talk. 9 years and she always came to me, then this. Truly out of left field for me. Things were really good before the first time. It was busy with a newborn, a home expansion, and full time jobs, but life was good.
I am nowhere near forgiving her. I still have all kinds of red light events on stupid and common everyday interactions she has with men, so I know my trust is also still in tatters. I just ride the wave of irrationality then come back down. Sometimes I ask her directly if something really truly bothers me. She has offered full openness, but I know I will never go back to trying to track her around like I did during the original months, I am pretty sure I literally went insane.
She also knows she isn't off the hook. I am fairly certain she is kinda tabling any real discussions about it because it is incorporated into her steps and she isn't trying to jump ahead. She seems very sincere about her sobriety. I just wish even something as simple as hugging wouldn't feel 1 way 90% of the time at this point. She did let her guard down a little today though and laid her head on my shoulder when I wrapped my arm around her waist.
My wife couldn't even say she cheated to my face she had to give me a letter and laid there while I read it. She called me her best friend in the letter. Truly our emotional relationship is amazing. It is the only reason I am still around honestly. We are each other's confidants. Our physical relationship is tattered. She calls me attractive, more attractive than either of the guys she cheated on me with. I've been with this woman long enough to know when she lies, the last 3 times she cheated on me I actually knew it but literally altered my reality so I could lie to myself. She called me good in bed. But she said something was missing. That was right after she told me (not drunk but still drinking). A couple weeks after admitting she was a alcoholic she admits without alcohol she would have never cheated the first time. She occasionally says she loves me now, although even if our marriage didn't work I am pretty sure she would still love me. She actually called our therapist after the first time (she didn't answer) then she decided she was going to act like it never happened and told the therapist it was just a bad drunk night on the return call.
It took her 2 months of drinking 5 or 6 nights a week to become a repeat offender. Which I went along with because her her sex drive had ramped up about 2 weeks before the conference where she first cheated on me. She hooked up with the first guy 3 more times before ending it with him. Then she got blackout drunk and woke up next to another guy at another conference. She doesn't deny sex, as she said she confirmed that part with the guy, but doesn't have any recollection of any of it. She calls that her rock bottom.
Coworkers keep complimenting her at work how good I look right now and she mentions it to me as if shes annoyed by it. I am in the best shape I have been in years partially from 3 months of lack of appetite while I altered my reality to believe she would never cheat on me, and now 2 months of going to the gym to take care of myself. She is also constantly beating herself up (silently but I can tell) because our 1 year old is absolutely a daddy's girl.
Our sex life was always a little needy on my part as I am usually the one who wanted more sex, which is all the more reason I was floored. I would try and talk to her about it every once in a while during our relationship, but she didn't like to talk. 9 years and she always came to me, then this. Truly out of left field for me. Things were really good before the first time. It was busy with a newborn, a home expansion, and full time jobs, but life was good.
I am nowhere near forgiving her. I still have all kinds of red light events on stupid and common everyday interactions she has with men, so I know my trust is also still in tatters. I just ride the wave of irrationality then come back down. Sometimes I ask her directly if something really truly bothers me. She has offered full openness, but I know I will never go back to trying to track her around like I did during the original months, I am pretty sure I literally went insane.
She also knows she isn't off the hook. I am fairly certain she is kinda tabling any real discussions about it because it is incorporated into her steps and she isn't trying to jump ahead. She seems very sincere about her sobriety. I just wish even something as simple as hugging wouldn't feel 1 way 90% of the time at this point. She did let her guard down a little today though and laid her head on my shoulder when I wrapped my arm around her waist.
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
Alcoholism and cheating are two separate things, just like alcoholism and abuse are two separate things. Plenty of alcoholics cheat and abuse their partners, but not all cheaters and abusers drink. You have to pull each piece apart instead of trying to blame everything on the alcohol. I know, it makes the pill easier to swallow if you can justify it with the drinking and move on. But this isn't even just one incidence of cheating, this is THREE (that you know of). There's something much deeper going on here, but it's her mess to clean up. What you need to do is figure out what your boundaries are. One of mine is cheating, alcohol or no alcohol. Once that trust is gone, it's gone.
Use your Al-Anon tools to help you figure out where YOU go from here. Oh, and go get checked for STDs and HIV. You don't really know where she's been or with whom, so best get checked to be sure she hasn't given you a gift that keeps on giving.
Use your Al-Anon tools to help you figure out where YOU go from here. Oh, and go get checked for STDs and HIV. You don't really know where she's been or with whom, so best get checked to be sure she hasn't given you a gift that keeps on giving.
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
The word you may be lacking is USER.
Sounds like she may be a USER, and you are being used.
Sort of what some A's do --
They USE:
Alcohol and Drugs;
Things; and
People.
Do you understand much of the Mental Illness issues that track along with Alcoholism?
Sounds like she may be a USER, and you are being used.
Sort of what some A's do --
They USE:
Alcohol and Drugs;
Things; and
People.
Do you understand much of the Mental Illness issues that track along with Alcoholism?
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
Naddur, you sound like a really great guy. You love your wife, you value the good times you've had, you're commited to the relationship, and you own your own feelings. This is leagues ahead of many.
It sounds as if your wife, in acknowledging that she is an alcoholic, and owning her infidelity, has opened up Pandora's box for herself as to who she is and why she allowed herself to choose to do such destruction actions.
Having had a childhood filled with dysfunction myself, and having been a co-dependent to my now XAH, I can possibly imagine some of what she is going through. If you think of a tapestry, imagine that parts of its image are distorted because the threads have caught and pulled and looped. While you can see where the problems are, you can't fix them just by seeing them. You have to go to the fringe, where the strands are free, and figure out one by one which ones to gently pull to fix the design.
For me, emotional work is like that. It has taken me far far longer than I ever expected to begin to fix my tapestry. Just when I think I have the thread from the past that needs to be pulled straight again, I see that it is tangled with yet another deeper thread. And I have to get that one straight, also.
She is in an emotional tangle right now. It sounds like she is truly working hard to overcome her alcoholism, and it sounds like that is leading her to deconstruct her past in order to reconstruct herself.
This sounds like one of those times when AA's counsel not to make a major change in the first year of recovery is wise counsel. That she is not emotionally available right now doesn't mean that she won't be. She may be feeling lots of guilt and shame and self doubt as well and having trouble forgiving herself.
So that's her. You get a turn too, as much as you need, as long as you want, wherever it takes you. You are doing what sound like very healthy things - Alanon, therapy, the gym, all of that and more. Allowing yourself to feel what you feel, and finding constructive ways to process your feelings is helpful, even though painful. For me, with my XAH, I went through cycles of feelings, and would think I had resolved an issue, only to find it resurfacing - the anger, the pain, the hurt, and the longing for the love I wanted so much again from my husband. Over time, as an issue surfaced again, I brought more insight to it, and I was in a happier and healthier place.
Take care of yourself, and make your own progress, no matter what she does. You'll both, as time goes on, come back to look each other in the eye and have a more informed insightful discussion about who you are each becoming and where you can go together in the future.
Remember, when you bake a cake, you can't take it out of the oven half done and then be upset that it hasn't risen, isn't baked, and is more like inedible pudding than the cake you expected.
Probably the best - and the most difficult - gift you can give each of you is patience, the gift of time. Keep posting here, we're here for you.
ShootingStar1
It sounds as if your wife, in acknowledging that she is an alcoholic, and owning her infidelity, has opened up Pandora's box for herself as to who she is and why she allowed herself to choose to do such destruction actions.
Having had a childhood filled with dysfunction myself, and having been a co-dependent to my now XAH, I can possibly imagine some of what she is going through. If you think of a tapestry, imagine that parts of its image are distorted because the threads have caught and pulled and looped. While you can see where the problems are, you can't fix them just by seeing them. You have to go to the fringe, where the strands are free, and figure out one by one which ones to gently pull to fix the design.
For me, emotional work is like that. It has taken me far far longer than I ever expected to begin to fix my tapestry. Just when I think I have the thread from the past that needs to be pulled straight again, I see that it is tangled with yet another deeper thread. And I have to get that one straight, also.
She is in an emotional tangle right now. It sounds like she is truly working hard to overcome her alcoholism, and it sounds like that is leading her to deconstruct her past in order to reconstruct herself.
This sounds like one of those times when AA's counsel not to make a major change in the first year of recovery is wise counsel. That she is not emotionally available right now doesn't mean that she won't be. She may be feeling lots of guilt and shame and self doubt as well and having trouble forgiving herself.
So that's her. You get a turn too, as much as you need, as long as you want, wherever it takes you. You are doing what sound like very healthy things - Alanon, therapy, the gym, all of that and more. Allowing yourself to feel what you feel, and finding constructive ways to process your feelings is helpful, even though painful. For me, with my XAH, I went through cycles of feelings, and would think I had resolved an issue, only to find it resurfacing - the anger, the pain, the hurt, and the longing for the love I wanted so much again from my husband. Over time, as an issue surfaced again, I brought more insight to it, and I was in a happier and healthier place.
Take care of yourself, and make your own progress, no matter what she does. You'll both, as time goes on, come back to look each other in the eye and have a more informed insightful discussion about who you are each becoming and where you can go together in the future.
Remember, when you bake a cake, you can't take it out of the oven half done and then be upset that it hasn't risen, isn't baked, and is more like inedible pudding than the cake you expected.
Probably the best - and the most difficult - gift you can give each of you is patience, the gift of time. Keep posting here, we're here for you.
ShootingStar1
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Mmmmmm
Posts: 3,178
Welcome Naddur. How tragic to see all of these fault lines surface in your marriage.
You do not have to make any decisions today. You both are doing a lot of right things by pulling in resources. It is unfortunate she is repeating the role she has from her mom. Self sabotage. I've seen that in myself and my RAH.
Your writing here is very clear though and I think SR might be a very good place for you to work on straightening things out in your head. I best work out my heart by writing. So welcome!
welcome
You do not have to make any decisions today. You both are doing a lot of right things by pulling in resources. It is unfortunate she is repeating the role she has from her mom. Self sabotage. I've seen that in myself and my RAH.
Your writing here is very clear though and I think SR might be a very good place for you to work on straightening things out in your head. I best work out my heart by writing. So welcome!
welcome Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Hello and welcome.
I would recommend to continue to work on you, and let her continue to work on her. Sometimes early recovery is so overwhelming you don't know what end is up and what end is down. Don't get too caught up in the future of what may be, just focus on the here and now. It's great she is addressing these demons in her life. The thing is, you have two children to think about, as does she. If this has not affected them already (which I would not believe), it would in the future.
Give yourself both the space required not to make any rash decisions or judgements. Keep up the step work, it will produce amazing results if you actually commit to doing it the right way.
Good luck to both of you.
I would recommend to continue to work on you, and let her continue to work on her. Sometimes early recovery is so overwhelming you don't know what end is up and what end is down. Don't get too caught up in the future of what may be, just focus on the here and now. It's great she is addressing these demons in her life. The thing is, you have two children to think about, as does she. If this has not affected them already (which I would not believe), it would in the future.
Give yourself both the space required not to make any rash decisions or judgements. Keep up the step work, it will produce amazing results if you actually commit to doing it the right way.
Good luck to both of you.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 14
Thank you all for your kind words. I guess I should clarify, I understand the alcohol and the cheating are two different beasts. However, I would never have been able to admit she was a alcoholic if it wasn't for the cheating (it causes a lot of her other drunken antics to come to mind), and she honestly is more convinced than me about the alcoholism. She is not physical with me because she hasn't made up her mind on why the cheating. I do feel the alcohol allowed her to enter a state of mind where she could cheat. personally I feel the cheating is tied to her ACOA or like a dry drunk learned symptom of sabotage (she isn't allowed to be happy). 2 years ago when we got pregnant with our 2nd we agreed to stop seeing our therapist who was helping both of us with our individual family issues to save up sick time (some EMDR in therapy).
She told me a month ago she was sad she stopped going and that starting into her ACOA issues only to stop might have done more worse than good for her. The sad thing is I didn't even voice my opinion 2 years ago (that I think she should keep going) because I didn't want to 'run her program'. She was sad to hear that.
I pushed her for information about a month ago (probably a bad idea but I've learned I can't be perfect heh) and she mentioned she feels like I haven't been attractive to her for a long time (I am a attractive guy but just not to her...) like maybe most of the relationship. That really triggered a lot of anger for me. It sounds so insane to me. So many mental images, pictures, memories that just don't make sense. When she drinks she would throw herself at me, like OMG you are freaky crazy get away. When she was sober I have fewer memories, but they are still there as well. It just doesn't make sense. The idea that our relationship is primarily a lie makes me want to drop her in a second. Drop her and just go out and have unemotional physical sex with other people. She is my one and only partner (I was her 2nd), and I always felt bad in bed. Even when she would tell me she got off I would convince myself no way I couldn't have been that good that time. That is my dysfunction, confidence.
She also says things like even if we don't end up together she would like to keep our best friend level of closeness. Again to me that idea is insanity. I can see myself staying a friend and be able to make decisions together as we will have to co-parent. But the level of closeness I have with her is reserved for my life partner, not my ex-wife.
I am extremely confident the cheating is isolated to the 5 times (the first 1, followed by 4 times within a 2 week period) with 2 total partners. In terms of STDs, she has been tested and I have a follow up appointment with my Doc next week to talk about a STD check and a checkup on my anti-depressants. I recently came to the realization that I have memories of thoughts of suicide at age 9. Not to mention the night she told me about cheating I literally went to a hotel, had my phone in 1 hand and a noose in the other and called... my wife... She had the love/concern to stay on the phone with me all night (didn't tell her what was in my other hand until our therapy session the next day). Sadly not my first attempt either, but the closest in my head. The therapist and I decided perhaps chemical assistance is probably a good idea in addition to Al-Anon and Therapy. Happily I can say I feel a hell of a lot more confident than I have ever felt in my entire life. Again probably why a part of me just wants to leave her and have unemotional sex with other women, I never felt like anyone except my wife would ever want to sleep with me in the past. The biggest thing holding me back really is a desire NOT to lose our relationship, our history...
She told me a month ago she was sad she stopped going and that starting into her ACOA issues only to stop might have done more worse than good for her. The sad thing is I didn't even voice my opinion 2 years ago (that I think she should keep going) because I didn't want to 'run her program'. She was sad to hear that.
I pushed her for information about a month ago (probably a bad idea but I've learned I can't be perfect heh) and she mentioned she feels like I haven't been attractive to her for a long time (I am a attractive guy but just not to her...) like maybe most of the relationship. That really triggered a lot of anger for me. It sounds so insane to me. So many mental images, pictures, memories that just don't make sense. When she drinks she would throw herself at me, like OMG you are freaky crazy get away. When she was sober I have fewer memories, but they are still there as well. It just doesn't make sense. The idea that our relationship is primarily a lie makes me want to drop her in a second. Drop her and just go out and have unemotional physical sex with other people. She is my one and only partner (I was her 2nd), and I always felt bad in bed. Even when she would tell me she got off I would convince myself no way I couldn't have been that good that time. That is my dysfunction, confidence.
She also says things like even if we don't end up together she would like to keep our best friend level of closeness. Again to me that idea is insanity. I can see myself staying a friend and be able to make decisions together as we will have to co-parent. But the level of closeness I have with her is reserved for my life partner, not my ex-wife.
I am extremely confident the cheating is isolated to the 5 times (the first 1, followed by 4 times within a 2 week period) with 2 total partners. In terms of STDs, she has been tested and I have a follow up appointment with my Doc next week to talk about a STD check and a checkup on my anti-depressants. I recently came to the realization that I have memories of thoughts of suicide at age 9. Not to mention the night she told me about cheating I literally went to a hotel, had my phone in 1 hand and a noose in the other and called... my wife... She had the love/concern to stay on the phone with me all night (didn't tell her what was in my other hand until our therapy session the next day). Sadly not my first attempt either, but the closest in my head. The therapist and I decided perhaps chemical assistance is probably a good idea in addition to Al-Anon and Therapy. Happily I can say I feel a hell of a lot more confident than I have ever felt in my entire life. Again probably why a part of me just wants to leave her and have unemotional sex with other women, I never felt like anyone except my wife would ever want to sleep with me in the past. The biggest thing holding me back really is a desire NOT to lose our relationship, our history...
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
I hear your struggle. I understand it too. Sometimes a marriage takes on another role with each other and it becomes harder to see the other person in a sexual light. My Xhusband became almost child like to me b/c I fulfilled the role of taking care of him. That mental role built up resentment and after a certain amount of years killed my sexual desire for him. I do think that the idea she wants to be "best friends" if you do not stay together is unattainable.
I do believe alcohol lowers your level of judgement. I do not believe it to be an excuse for cheating, but it can contribute. It's good that she is trying to figure out the method behind her madness for both the cheating and the alcohol abuse. Don't assume she is not an alcoholic for your benefit. If she says she has an alcohol problem, she does.
A marriage can get past infidelity with the right help and desire from both parties. Take this time to work on YOU. You deserve to take good care of yourself.
I do believe alcohol lowers your level of judgement. I do not believe it to be an excuse for cheating, but it can contribute. It's good that she is trying to figure out the method behind her madness for both the cheating and the alcohol abuse. Don't assume she is not an alcoholic for your benefit. If she says she has an alcohol problem, she does.
A marriage can get past infidelity with the right help and desire from both parties. Take this time to work on YOU. You deserve to take good care of yourself.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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hopeful4, I very much think that is the stem of her thoughts in terms of my attractiveness. Our normal sober MO in bed is me pushing until she relents. The frustrating thing is anytime I wanted to talk about our sex life and try and find a way to communicate better, she would get tight lipped. I personally never thought it was bad enough to end the relationship, and when she drank she very much wanted it as bad if not more than I wanted it.
Our therapist has worked with both of us separately a little in this department. With her the idea that sometimes you might not be in the mood but saying OK and getting into it once its started is alright. With me the idea every time you have sex it doesn't always have to be amazing and intimate. Just like sometimes a kiss is just a peck and other times it is more.
Right before she cheated on me, her drive went way over anything I've ever seen from her sober. I was hesitant to 'push my luck'. After the first time she cheated (and kept it secret) we had a month of amazing sex. however, I knew something was off, so much so I was having problems in bed even though the sex was great for both of us. After the first month it started to drop off. A month later she was cheating on me again. After the first time she cheated, I very much became super 'clingy' and 'scared' and 'talk to me talk to me talk to me'. In hindsight, I can imagine that was horribly unattractive, although I would argue cheating and lieing is way more unattractive. So that kinda makes that 3 month window off limits for a healthy relationship comparison in my book. If she had said to me, the last 3 months I wasn't attracted to you I would have believed her. But for most of a 9 year relationship?!?
Our therapist has worked with both of us separately a little in this department. With her the idea that sometimes you might not be in the mood but saying OK and getting into it once its started is alright. With me the idea every time you have sex it doesn't always have to be amazing and intimate. Just like sometimes a kiss is just a peck and other times it is more.
Right before she cheated on me, her drive went way over anything I've ever seen from her sober. I was hesitant to 'push my luck'. After the first time she cheated (and kept it secret) we had a month of amazing sex. however, I knew something was off, so much so I was having problems in bed even though the sex was great for both of us. After the first month it started to drop off. A month later she was cheating on me again. After the first time she cheated, I very much became super 'clingy' and 'scared' and 'talk to me talk to me talk to me'. In hindsight, I can imagine that was horribly unattractive, although I would argue cheating and lieing is way more unattractive. So that kinda makes that 3 month window off limits for a healthy relationship comparison in my book. If she had said to me, the last 3 months I wasn't attracted to you I would have believed her. But for most of a 9 year relationship?!?
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
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I can only say for myself, there were a lot of pent up things I was not comfortable addressing with my X. It made him unattractive and frankly, it made me unattractive too.
Only you can decide what you can get over or not. Only she can decide what she wants too. However, the less "needy" you each are on each other and the more you work on finding yourself the better off you will be. Right now, and I understand, you are obsessed with her cheating. However, it sounds like she is the one making the decisions in that she is not even sure she wants to be together, and that's ok. Why don't you focus on how to deal with these things for YOU instead of focusing on what her next move with be.
It's really hard to live in the moment. However, the more you learn to do so the better off you will be. I know for my X he was very focused on the sex. I was not. It was a complete disconnect. In reality, I should have been interested in a reasonable way, and so should he. However, in recovery, sometimes that takes a while.
She is emotionally connected to you. I dare say, these other men, she was not. Her emotions may be getting in the way of her having an enjoyable sex life with you.
These are just guesses of course. No one but she knows how she feels. I just want you to see that the reasons and faults don't all fall on your shoulders. She had admitted she has some serious work to do. That's a good thing.
Please take care of you. You are an insightful person who truly cares or you would not be here in the first place. Please recognize you are worth whatever amount of work you need to do to be happy with yourself, no matter what the outcome of your marriage ends up being.
Only you can decide what you can get over or not. Only she can decide what she wants too. However, the less "needy" you each are on each other and the more you work on finding yourself the better off you will be. Right now, and I understand, you are obsessed with her cheating. However, it sounds like she is the one making the decisions in that she is not even sure she wants to be together, and that's ok. Why don't you focus on how to deal with these things for YOU instead of focusing on what her next move with be.
It's really hard to live in the moment. However, the more you learn to do so the better off you will be. I know for my X he was very focused on the sex. I was not. It was a complete disconnect. In reality, I should have been interested in a reasonable way, and so should he. However, in recovery, sometimes that takes a while.
She is emotionally connected to you. I dare say, these other men, she was not. Her emotions may be getting in the way of her having an enjoyable sex life with you.
These are just guesses of course. No one but she knows how she feels. I just want you to see that the reasons and faults don't all fall on your shoulders. She had admitted she has some serious work to do. That's a good thing.
Please take care of you. You are an insightful person who truly cares or you would not be here in the first place. Please recognize you are worth whatever amount of work you need to do to be happy with yourself, no matter what the outcome of your marriage ends up being.
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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Wednesday therapy sessions are always so grounding for me. Really helps talking to a professional to figure out what is me sabotaging and what is me knowing what I really want. Last couple days my eyes had been dry but I started crying again this morning reading some of these posts. I am really glad I've started reading and posting on this forum. Alanon meetings are amazing, but I haven't really felt like it is enough time for me to truly 'talk' out things completely. I need to push the kiddos' bedtime a bit later so I can actually stick around and talk more after the meetings. Journaling is good too, but I think I drift a bit into my crazy when I do a private journal.
The mind is such wonky thing. I go to meetings and find peace listening to others with similar problems. I burned through codependent no more and beyond codependency in a couple weeks because it was easy to find peace while reading them. My wife and I talk about our recovery and all the little things that we really relate to and I find peace. Then I find a moment of silence and emotions take over. Probably not a bad thing, but I can't handle it for long periods. I start to get anxious and need to 'take action'. I just need to keep diverting the 'take action' mentality into learning and self discovery until my higher power and I are on the same page about what action I really should take. Patience....
The mind is such wonky thing. I go to meetings and find peace listening to others with similar problems. I burned through codependent no more and beyond codependency in a couple weeks because it was easy to find peace while reading them. My wife and I talk about our recovery and all the little things that we really relate to and I find peace. Then I find a moment of silence and emotions take over. Probably not a bad thing, but I can't handle it for long periods. I start to get anxious and need to 'take action'. I just need to keep diverting the 'take action' mentality into learning and self discovery until my higher power and I are on the same page about what action I really should take. Patience....
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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So unfortunately I have to miss my lunchtime Al-Anon meeting today in lieu of a quarterly staff meeting. I figured I would toss some of my thoughts out into the open in to help offset that loss.
I've completed reading co-dependent no more, and beyond co-dependency. I've been Immersed in the Al-Anon blue book, After the Affair, and Loving an ACOA. I've also decided I REALLY need a sponsor and think I know who I want to ask. He is in both my weekly meetings and I really relate to him when he shares. I need to open up a bit and talk to him after the meeting though.
Over a week has passed and I've been able to find patience (yay!). She is working step 2 in AA (her sponsor was out of town for a week so there was a bit of a pause). We continue to have a high functioning extremely satisfying emotional connection. We are doing well co parenting our 1 and 3 year olds as well. We started sleeping in the same bed again last Saturday. It felt good to have her next to me again. Additionally she has allowed me to hold her before we go to sleep and when we wake up which is nice. However she is still hesitant to start exploring her cheating yet. Her dysfunction is so interwoven throughout her life, it breaks my heart.
I asked her last night if she wants me to hold her. She said 'no...don't stop...but no... honestly I feel like I just want to curl up in a ball and be alone by myself'. It makes me think of her mother and how she continually pushes everyone away from her so she can be alone. It is her self fulfilling prophecy.
I mentioned how much I relate to the feelings of the 'hurt' partner in After the Affair, yet I relate so much to the actions of the 'unfaithful' partner. I said it really made me mad that I somehow am stuck playing both roles. She said I can't blame her for that, to which I said maybe not, maybe I am mad at myself for still staying in the relationship and doing it to myself. At which point I switched from anger into sadness and broke down and cried for a bit. I want to be here when she finishes this journey she is on, but it is her journey on her timeline not mine, so all I can do is take it one day at a time. After the sadness passed I found contentment again holding her and accepting the fact that she may not want me to hold her, but she is willing to let me hold her. As they say, I took my luck as it comes.
The other area that is really overwhelming for me right now is the sexual frustration. Ever since she told me she cheated on me, it has been nearly impossible to self service (I get flashes of her with the other guy). My libido has always been extremely high (I always figured I would be the one to cheat in our relationship) so no sex AND little to no self service has left me crawling up the walls. To top it off I got a vasectomy a year ago and I've started getting a dull ache in my groin from what I am guessing is back pressure, although I suppose it could just be my imagination. Either way, this more than anything is making it hard for me to stay happy in the relationship. This woman, my love, is currently incapable of a physical connection. Something I could seriously use right now.
Anyways, thanks for reading!
I've completed reading co-dependent no more, and beyond co-dependency. I've been Immersed in the Al-Anon blue book, After the Affair, and Loving an ACOA. I've also decided I REALLY need a sponsor and think I know who I want to ask. He is in both my weekly meetings and I really relate to him when he shares. I need to open up a bit and talk to him after the meeting though.
Over a week has passed and I've been able to find patience (yay!). She is working step 2 in AA (her sponsor was out of town for a week so there was a bit of a pause). We continue to have a high functioning extremely satisfying emotional connection. We are doing well co parenting our 1 and 3 year olds as well. We started sleeping in the same bed again last Saturday. It felt good to have her next to me again. Additionally she has allowed me to hold her before we go to sleep and when we wake up which is nice. However she is still hesitant to start exploring her cheating yet. Her dysfunction is so interwoven throughout her life, it breaks my heart.
I asked her last night if she wants me to hold her. She said 'no...don't stop...but no... honestly I feel like I just want to curl up in a ball and be alone by myself'. It makes me think of her mother and how she continually pushes everyone away from her so she can be alone. It is her self fulfilling prophecy.
I mentioned how much I relate to the feelings of the 'hurt' partner in After the Affair, yet I relate so much to the actions of the 'unfaithful' partner. I said it really made me mad that I somehow am stuck playing both roles. She said I can't blame her for that, to which I said maybe not, maybe I am mad at myself for still staying in the relationship and doing it to myself. At which point I switched from anger into sadness and broke down and cried for a bit. I want to be here when she finishes this journey she is on, but it is her journey on her timeline not mine, so all I can do is take it one day at a time. After the sadness passed I found contentment again holding her and accepting the fact that she may not want me to hold her, but she is willing to let me hold her. As they say, I took my luck as it comes.
The other area that is really overwhelming for me right now is the sexual frustration. Ever since she told me she cheated on me, it has been nearly impossible to self service (I get flashes of her with the other guy). My libido has always been extremely high (I always figured I would be the one to cheat in our relationship) so no sex AND little to no self service has left me crawling up the walls. To top it off I got a vasectomy a year ago and I've started getting a dull ache in my groin from what I am guessing is back pressure, although I suppose it could just be my imagination. Either way, this more than anything is making it hard for me to stay happy in the relationship. This woman, my love, is currently incapable of a physical connection. Something I could seriously use right now.
Anyways, thanks for reading!
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I have heard time and again from therapists that marriage counseling with an active addict is a good idea...
Just an observation.
Of course I ignored that.
And xAH and I went. And it turned into "consider how this might make him feel", "consider how you could say this differently" etc...
All of that is fine and good and important. But when an A hears it it is more like this "blame whatever you do on the partner not being ___________ or not doing _________________ and that way the fundamental behaviors, actions, selfishness and emotional withholding of affection that is undeniable as part of alcoholism can be ignored"
I am so sorry for you.
Your wife is being hurtful, cutting YOU down and making you question yourself because OF COURSE that is easier than admitting that she made marriage vows, has broken them and now is acting like its a negotiable topic for debate about whether that is ok.
It sounds to me like her drinking has been a problem for a long time and that her behavior due both to her drinkng and childhood lead her to an affair.
You have a right to be treated with love and respect. You do not have to accept blame for her choices or feel pity for her or make excuses. There is NO excuse for her behavior that makes it ok or understandable.
She had a rough life as a kid. Many of us did. Not all of us become addicts or cheat.
And the fact that you are sticking with her even while she is keeping you at an arms length makes me sad for you because it reads like she is playing both sides... Has the affair and you in the wings...
I am sorry if this sounds harsh. It is just unbelievably selfish for her to behave as she has and then add insult to injury by telling you some of the things she has.
I hope you stick around here and learn (as I had to) that alcoholism and the drinking that goes with it is just the teeniest part of the disease... The thinking and the rationalizing and the justifying behavior that the rest of us see as totally unacceptable is the bigger piece...
Just an observation.
Of course I ignored that.
And xAH and I went. And it turned into "consider how this might make him feel", "consider how you could say this differently" etc...
All of that is fine and good and important. But when an A hears it it is more like this "blame whatever you do on the partner not being ___________ or not doing _________________ and that way the fundamental behaviors, actions, selfishness and emotional withholding of affection that is undeniable as part of alcoholism can be ignored"
I am so sorry for you.
Your wife is being hurtful, cutting YOU down and making you question yourself because OF COURSE that is easier than admitting that she made marriage vows, has broken them and now is acting like its a negotiable topic for debate about whether that is ok.
It sounds to me like her drinking has been a problem for a long time and that her behavior due both to her drinkng and childhood lead her to an affair.
You have a right to be treated with love and respect. You do not have to accept blame for her choices or feel pity for her or make excuses. There is NO excuse for her behavior that makes it ok or understandable.
She had a rough life as a kid. Many of us did. Not all of us become addicts or cheat.
And the fact that you are sticking with her even while she is keeping you at an arms length makes me sad for you because it reads like she is playing both sides... Has the affair and you in the wings...
I am sorry if this sounds harsh. It is just unbelievably selfish for her to behave as she has and then add insult to injury by telling you some of the things she has.
I hope you stick around here and learn (as I had to) that alcoholism and the drinking that goes with it is just the teeniest part of the disease... The thinking and the rationalizing and the justifying behavior that the rest of us see as totally unacceptable is the bigger piece...
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Join Date: Sep 2014
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Thanks for the response!
This is one of the hardest things for me to identify. Part of me feels like it is her hiding from her actions. Yet I also know AA is telling her to not make decisions right now, because the correct decisions are clouded by the addiction (she is still only 3 months sober). I get that, and she seems sincere in her recovery. It doesn't change the fact that with each passing day, her desire to put on hold exploring the reasons behind her cheating sways the scale away from a honest attempt at recovery and hiding from that portion of the problem.
This is one of the hardest things for me to identify. Part of me feels like it is her hiding from her actions. Yet I also know AA is telling her to not make decisions right now, because the correct decisions are clouded by the addiction (she is still only 3 months sober). I get that, and she seems sincere in her recovery. It doesn't change the fact that with each passing day, her desire to put on hold exploring the reasons behind her cheating sways the scale away from a honest attempt at recovery and hiding from that portion of the problem.
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In terms of marriage counseling. We actually are still doing separate sessions with the therapist. The therapist just recently suggested we might be ready to have a session together. Although I think I am ready for that, I don't think she is yet.
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