The progression
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,410
Originally Posted by Justbreathe1980 
Sounds like you are unsure if his angry outbursts are alcohol related or not, as sometimes he can get angry when not drinking. A lot of alcoholics are angry when they are not drinking because they are missing the alcohol, or are just grumpy because the alcohol is messing up their bodies. So, I think that even though he is not literally drinking, his anger is alcohol related because of his addiction. If he sobers up and gets treatment (such as working the AA steps), it is likely that a lot of that anger will clear up.
That's why it is often said that living with a recovering alcoholic can be more difficult than one who is drinking perhaps. The "work" to learn to deal with emotions that are difficult as they come up and to process the accumulated toxic crap you are carrying is why I think so many relapse.
I think you are on the right track to see the lawyer and reconsider what you want in a partner--to be treated with respect is an essential quality in a partnership, isn't it?
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 3,581
"make sure you do something--I'm sick of your threats!"
I'd have to agree with your AH and am glad to read you are seeing an attorney. I think the incident that happened with the luggage is just a prime example of blame shifting. A's will nit pick their sober counterparts to death over nothing to level the playing field. This is a very common move to take the spotlight off of them and the focus on you. I suggest you neither engage or respond or try to defend ever. They want you to engage - to start an argument about YOU, and your behavior, your problems etc so no one discusses about how they got so intoxicated they were left to find their way back to the hotel.
I too agree that it is best when dealing with an A who is not in recovery not to drink. Th circumstance can be different, and there can be situations where the non A has elected to stay with the A and detach and move on with life but I don't see that here. No you aren't an A - its more about saying you aren't going to participate in their drunken antics, misery, and crapshoot of whether the night is going to end up ok or not. While your husband admits to a "drinking problem" I do not think he thinks he is an alcoholic. The idea of moderation, nights that he does drink reasonably, days that he may not drink at all, switching his alcohol of choice, and so forth are mere "tests" to prove to themselves and others (LOL) that they are not alcoholic. Tis a disease of denial.
Wishing you the best and hopeful that your boundary setting will have some positive effects for him - I know it will for you.
I'd have to agree with your AH and am glad to read you are seeing an attorney. I think the incident that happened with the luggage is just a prime example of blame shifting. A's will nit pick their sober counterparts to death over nothing to level the playing field. This is a very common move to take the spotlight off of them and the focus on you. I suggest you neither engage or respond or try to defend ever. They want you to engage - to start an argument about YOU, and your behavior, your problems etc so no one discusses about how they got so intoxicated they were left to find their way back to the hotel.
I too agree that it is best when dealing with an A who is not in recovery not to drink. Th circumstance can be different, and there can be situations where the non A has elected to stay with the A and detach and move on with life but I don't see that here. No you aren't an A - its more about saying you aren't going to participate in their drunken antics, misery, and crapshoot of whether the night is going to end up ok or not. While your husband admits to a "drinking problem" I do not think he thinks he is an alcoholic. The idea of moderation, nights that he does drink reasonably, days that he may not drink at all, switching his alcohol of choice, and so forth are mere "tests" to prove to themselves and others (LOL) that they are not alcoholic. Tis a disease of denial.
Wishing you the best and hopeful that your boundary setting will have some positive effects for him - I know it will for you.
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: east coast
Posts: 1,332
I am so in the minority here but I feel if you enjoy a drink then have a drink. Its the alcoholics problem they cant control themselves not you. When I quit drinking there was beer in the fridge and when my husband offered to quit with me as a show of support I told him no that it was my responsibility to learn how to live as an alcoholic in a non alcoholic world.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Pa
Posts: 4,872
I also do not feel that you are an A. That you can enjoy a drink or two. I would recommend though that you do not drink with him. Why? I did. I was able to stop, so why not? Then the abuse got worse and I just wanted to shut him up in my head, so I started drinking more. I had to call the cops once because of physical abuse. I had 4 beers that night, I walked away from it, he followed me. The police report had it that we were both drinking, and they didn't take me that seriously (even with my black eye) because I was also drinking. He went to jail, I went to the hospital.
((((((((((hugs)))))))))))
((((((((((hugs)))))))))))
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 137
Thanks so much to all of you; it's so good to have feedback.
I'm feeling a little shaky about things today, but I made an appointment with a therapist. Going in just a little bit. I am doing that, and the attorney visits, for ME--and I don't have to make any sudden decisions.
Last night he apologized for saying things about my income; I told him that he'd said them and there were a lot of things he shouldn't have said, and that it was too little, too late. The "I'm sorries" just seem to be coming more often these days, but there's never a thought to stopping the behavior so he doesn't HAVE to apologize, you know?
I'm feeling a little shaky about things today, but I made an appointment with a therapist. Going in just a little bit. I am doing that, and the attorney visits, for ME--and I don't have to make any sudden decisions.
Last night he apologized for saying things about my income; I told him that he'd said them and there were a lot of things he shouldn't have said, and that it was too little, too late. The "I'm sorries" just seem to be coming more often these days, but there's never a thought to stopping the behavior so he doesn't HAVE to apologize, you know?
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wherever we go, there we are.
Posts: 108
Sikofit, thank you for posting here, this thread and all its replies (thank you everyone!) have been so helpful. It is SO GREAT to hear you're taking positive, proactive steps in the direction of your own self-care.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 1,118
I also find this thread really interesting.
First of all, you wonder about progression. I don't think there's any thermometer to tell us when our partners/loved ones have crossed over into some other territory that demands you take action. As others have said--it all depends upon how whatever he's doing is impacting your life.
You're thinking, "I've been able to detach and deal now, but will it get even worse?" If I compare your situation with mine, I have been married 37 years, and my AH was also sober for a period of time--in my case 5 years, from 1999-2004. During those 5 years he built a business, grew to the point where he had to move out of his home office. He hired an assistant, then an editor (he's a video producer), then two more producers, then expanded the office, then was getting offers from venture capitalists.
Then he relapsed.
Within 2 years, two of his employees quit because he was disrespectful to them, his ability to get new gigs dried up, he had to move from his office back to his home office, lay off his editor, and the business loan he took out for a big potential project in China became a huge liability (mainly to me, the foolish cosigner) because that gig just evaporated.
That was OK, he still had some gigs he could do on his own, and his kids were in their early 20s, and all their friends loved him because he was so cool to be with at tailgates and parties. Then what happened? The friends matured. One New Year's Eve his son asked him to leave the party because he was feeling uncomfortable with the vibe his dad brought to the party.
So now, 10 years after his relapse, his video work has dried up completely. He hasn't worked in a couple of years, and his self-esteem is in the gutter. That peeing thing? Happens all the time. I'm the person who tells him he should change his pants because he stinks. He doesn't even get mad at that.
His mother died, and left him some money, and he blew through it within a year, so now he is broke. His bank closed his account.
He used to disparage his brother because his brother has a minimum-paying job--he's call him a loser, lazy b**tard. I want to suggest to him that maybe his loser brother could get him a job, but I don't.
Just like you, we'd go out and of course we might get into a fight because he'd drink more than he should and he'd make some irrational case against me for parking the wrong way, or taking the left EZ pass lane instead of the right. But we don't fight anymore because we don't go out anymore. I won't go to bars with him. And he won't go anywhere unless he can drink.
We all thought his new 8 month old grandson would shake him up. My DDIL, bless her heart, has set firm boundaries on when he can see his grandson. As a result, he has seen his grandson only 4 times, even though we live just 15 minutes away.
We all thought his stern warnings from his gastroenterologist, and an uncomfortable procedure would shake him up. His GI told him he can't drink for 4 months; otherwise, there's no point in the treatment, and his response was to go on a week-long bender.
So he has no money, no bank account, no credit, no job, no social life, abandoned hobbies, and a disintegrating relationship with his son and restrictions on his relationship with his grandson.
That's progression.
And where do I fit in? Do I STILL ask myself whether I should leave or not? Yes. I'm still where I was back in 2004 in many ways. I'm better at detachment. I like to think of myself as healthy, but I think I spoke the truth to AH recently. He was bemoaning his alcoholism and crying that he needed to do something but felt ashamed at his addiction. I said, "Don't be ashamed. Everyone is addicted to something." And he said, "You're not!"
And I said, "yes I am." He asked, "What are you addicted to?" And I told him, "You."
Final word: I have often held my own codependency and my own long history with my AH up here in these forums as a cautionary tale for others who, like you, want to know what the future might hold them, and so I'm doing the same for you.
(sorry for the long post--I didn't know it was going to come out this way).
First of all, you wonder about progression. I don't think there's any thermometer to tell us when our partners/loved ones have crossed over into some other territory that demands you take action. As others have said--it all depends upon how whatever he's doing is impacting your life.
You're thinking, "I've been able to detach and deal now, but will it get even worse?" If I compare your situation with mine, I have been married 37 years, and my AH was also sober for a period of time--in my case 5 years, from 1999-2004. During those 5 years he built a business, grew to the point where he had to move out of his home office. He hired an assistant, then an editor (he's a video producer), then two more producers, then expanded the office, then was getting offers from venture capitalists.
Then he relapsed.
Within 2 years, two of his employees quit because he was disrespectful to them, his ability to get new gigs dried up, he had to move from his office back to his home office, lay off his editor, and the business loan he took out for a big potential project in China became a huge liability (mainly to me, the foolish cosigner) because that gig just evaporated.
That was OK, he still had some gigs he could do on his own, and his kids were in their early 20s, and all their friends loved him because he was so cool to be with at tailgates and parties. Then what happened? The friends matured. One New Year's Eve his son asked him to leave the party because he was feeling uncomfortable with the vibe his dad brought to the party.
So now, 10 years after his relapse, his video work has dried up completely. He hasn't worked in a couple of years, and his self-esteem is in the gutter. That peeing thing? Happens all the time. I'm the person who tells him he should change his pants because he stinks. He doesn't even get mad at that.
His mother died, and left him some money, and he blew through it within a year, so now he is broke. His bank closed his account.
He used to disparage his brother because his brother has a minimum-paying job--he's call him a loser, lazy b**tard. I want to suggest to him that maybe his loser brother could get him a job, but I don't.
Just like you, we'd go out and of course we might get into a fight because he'd drink more than he should and he'd make some irrational case against me for parking the wrong way, or taking the left EZ pass lane instead of the right. But we don't fight anymore because we don't go out anymore. I won't go to bars with him. And he won't go anywhere unless he can drink.
We all thought his new 8 month old grandson would shake him up. My DDIL, bless her heart, has set firm boundaries on when he can see his grandson. As a result, he has seen his grandson only 4 times, even though we live just 15 minutes away.
We all thought his stern warnings from his gastroenterologist, and an uncomfortable procedure would shake him up. His GI told him he can't drink for 4 months; otherwise, there's no point in the treatment, and his response was to go on a week-long bender.
So he has no money, no bank account, no credit, no job, no social life, abandoned hobbies, and a disintegrating relationship with his son and restrictions on his relationship with his grandson.
That's progression.
And where do I fit in? Do I STILL ask myself whether I should leave or not? Yes. I'm still where I was back in 2004 in many ways. I'm better at detachment. I like to think of myself as healthy, but I think I spoke the truth to AH recently. He was bemoaning his alcoholism and crying that he needed to do something but felt ashamed at his addiction. I said, "Don't be ashamed. Everyone is addicted to something." And he said, "You're not!"
And I said, "yes I am." He asked, "What are you addicted to?" And I told him, "You."
Final word: I have often held my own codependency and my own long history with my AH up here in these forums as a cautionary tale for others who, like you, want to know what the future might hold them, and so I'm doing the same for you.
(sorry for the long post--I didn't know it was going to come out this way).
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southeastern Michigan
Posts: 137
So good, Solo. And thanks all.
Saw the therapist; it went well. Really confirmed things I already knew or read about here. He suggested I attend Alanon again, and I agreed and will make the effort. I'm going back to him in a couple of weeks--tomorrow is my first attorney consultation. That will give me a better picture of my options.
Saw the therapist; it went well. Really confirmed things I already knew or read about here. He suggested I attend Alanon again, and I agreed and will make the effort. I'm going back to him in a couple of weeks--tomorrow is my first attorney consultation. That will give me a better picture of my options.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 154
Boundaries only work when you stand behind them. Threatening things and not followingn through just proves to the A that you will continue to tolerate his behavior. Good for you for standing behind your boundary. I guess when you have enough, you've had enough. Good luck in your journey. It sounds to me like you have spent a lot of years tolerating your life--imagine how good it will feel to be excited about what the future could bring instead of picturing clear as day the way things will certainly end up if you stay and nothing changes.
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