Ofelie

Soooo I know, I am supposed to be nice and careful here for your sakes and everyone's, and usually I would, but I am tired, fed up, SICK TO DEATH OF THIS USELESS AWFUL DESTRUCTIVE DISEASE. And having sat here tonight and reminded (codependent) myself of what I went through in my own lovely experience (pics of my bruises, re reading of my journal so I remember....hugging my 11 year old goodnight and catching sight of the scars on her arms from where she tried to kill herself....REMEMBER what it was truly like) with an abusive mentally ill alcoholic...All I can say is...

GET OUT.

You are already making excuses, already apologizing for worrying...already normal is slipping away and normal with an alcoholic is replacing it, already trying to control by snooping for bottles, confronting, etc etc etc...All I can say here is...get back on your own pillow (read the post about how the therapist said every relationship is like you and your partner standing on pillows with one between you) and just...end it now. Its only going to lead to heartache...after some time...most likely progressively ugly time battling it between the two of you. I don't care how wonderful a person is, how perfect they seem for you, etc etc, she isn't..or she would have stopped, got help, etc. If she is lying about the booze...and an alcoholic, its just not worth the grief and pain it will all lead to. I know its easy for me to sit here on the back end of it and say hey just walk away. But...I am telling you...WALK AWAY... just get out of that burning house now. Its pretty much harder to do than anything at all if you really do care about her as you seem to. You talk of the next steps...marriage, kids....is that the kind of woman you want to be connected to for like....60 years? And omg is that the sort of woman you want as a mother for your future kids? Do you know...the damage wrought onto a child by the chaos of an alcoholic? I may sound harsh here, and dammit, when it comes to children, even hypothetical ones...yes, I will be harsh. My kids? I cannot sit here and list the untold amounts of damage done to them. I let it happen, that is on me. I can't even bear to type what awful emotional rollercoaster we have been on while trying to heal from that horrible man's damage.
Don't fool yourself for a moment and think you can get this woman to stop the drinking. She has to do that for herself. What you need to do for yourself is get to Alanon...so you can open your eyes and get support. We get so embroiled in the alcoholics reality, we care about them, and soon their effed up world becomes our normal and we forget what a real normal is... and soon enough you are snooping for bottles in drawers and feeling like an Ahole for snooping when omg she shouldn't be hiding them in the first place because that ISN'T normal...and you shouldn't have to worry about such stuff. You should be worrying about whether there is enough tomato sauce in the cabinet for dinner and did you remember to gas up your car because you don't have time in the morning, did you pay the water bill, etc.

The moderators might pull my post for being too harsh to you. I am saying this out of love, for you. and for those hypothetical next step potential children you will have. You deserve normal. You deserve better. You deserve a woman who is not addicted to anything...except possibly you. Love. You deserve to be cherished, loved, respected and listened to. You deserve to be number one...not number two. Because alcohol is always number one. Always. So, it may seem like I am being awfully mean here but...Get Out. End it. Let the woman go. Watch Hammer's video about letting people go, because it is SO SO true. You laid it all out there on the line, you told your girl what was a problem for you. She didn't fix it. Its a non negotiable...and she didn't fix it. So...let her go. It will hurt, it will be hard. It nearly destroyed me. But...you will survive, stronger, wiser. And go on to find better. Take time in the meantime to work on that codependence. I am still working on mine. 8 months later. The funny thing here is 8 months ago I felt like I was in hell and I would die because I had kicked out my ex fiance. Today? I am dating an amazingly gentle man. He is smart, kind, funny, respectful, intelligent, educated, laid back, no anger or anxiety issues, great family...no addictions or history of abuse at all...handsome, sexy, wow. He is willing to go slow and careful with me, as I have made it clear what I have been through, made it clear I am not sure I trust myself or anyone else. Has said he will give me all the time in the world, as he is not going anywhere at all, he wants to be with me enough that he is willing to wait it out. Did I forget to mention that he is filthy rich?? So, last year, as I am getting terrorized and hurt by a crazy alcoholic who won't work, thinking he was it for me...IT, all that there was out there for me, that I could never be attracted to anyone else...boy was I wrong. I feel sorta stupid looking back on all that. Sheesh. What I realize now...I went through all that so now I can recognize and appreciate normal for how beautiful it is...rather than get all revved up by codependent tendencies on the next abusive addict who comes along. Let her go. Its just not worth the heartache. Someone better, stronger, healthier will come along one day for you. Or maybe they won't and that would be ok too, because you are going to start focusing on YOU... rather than her. Least I hope so...because you are amazing and wonderful, and have so very much to offer everyone around you.

jmartin

My AW has been like this too, "high functioning", professional job, never drinks on the job, never drinks and drives. The problems for me have not been so much due to the drinking itself - though I did get tired of being around the zombie that she becomes - but the behaviors surrounding it.

She knew she "shouldn't be drinking", and felt somewhat ashamed that it was so out of control, that she began hiding it from me. I would never see the bottles, just noticed that she was a little off, speaking slowly and carefully (or slurring), saying things that almost but didn't quite make sense, etc. The hiding became deliberate lying as I started figuring things out. The dishonesty over drinking led to even more lies, even about stupid things, as lying seemed to become more comfortable, a way for her to defer and avoid.

Here we are ten years later, and I am convinced that the alcohol has damaged her brain to the point where her "high function" is starting to fray. She has lost three jobs in the last two years, and has lurched from relapse to relapse, all over stupid things. The dishonesty and immature behavior (it is like living with an adolescent) has escalated - nothing is her fault, she is the victim with everything. She struggles to communicate, and blames me because I don't "just know" what she is trying to tell me. She has become a shameless manipulator, I need to be constantly on my guard. At some point along the way, she learned to placate - to tell me what she thought I wanted to hear - anything to buy herself another chance (and be yet more secretive about her problem).

I could go on and on, but I will spare you. I can't forecast with any certainty how your situation will play out, but I will say this - I wish I had not subjected myself to the thousand cuts of this relationship. Knowing what I know now, I would never tolerate what I have tolerated for ten years in the name of "saving our marriage". The disease is awful, and capable of destroying the best in people, both the alcoholic and those close to them. Best to you, whatever you decide.

hopeful4

My heart hurts for all affected from this disease. The further you can get away from it, the better.

Neumena

Thanks all...

Question abut Al-Anon (& AA)...this could probably be it's own topic...

I'm not at all religious and must admit the religious language in Al-Anon turns me off a bit, though I'm still definitely considering going depending on how things pan out with the GF on Sunday...have any other non-religious folk attended Al-Anon and what was your experience like? Are there Al-Anon alternatives without the religious angle?

Furthermore, my GF is EXTREMELY non-religious...to the point where I know she'll refuse AA meetings just based on that...so I'll definitely need AA alternatives. Also, what are your thoughts on group therapy vs. individual counseling? Must they go hand in hand, is there any consensus that one works better than the other?

Thanks.

Croissant

I don't know where you are located, but even going to a relationships counsellor together and bringing this up as an issue that you need a neutral 3rd party to help with may help her to admit/recognise this is a problem.

It may be a stepping stone to get her to find help. You can also speak to your doctor about this also.

In the US they have Women for Sobriety which looks like a great program also.

Sorry, just some random ideas off the top of my head.

NWGRITS

This is a disease built on "yet," as others have mentioned. She'll either find recovery or she won't, but neither will be because of you. None of her drinking has anything to do with you. If she did jump headfirst into the bottle if you left, that still wouldn't be your fault. She would likely find another reason if you stay. The "coincidence" of these events benefits the alcoholic because it makes you feel guilty, like you caused it to happen. No, it was going to happen anyway, you just created an opening to make yourself the scapegoat. To second Hammer, get thee to Al-Anon.

Rosalba

The vast majority of people I know in Alanon are non-religious; it's a spiritual program, not a religious one. You're probably already aware of the concept of a Higher Power; this can be the power of the group, or anything else which is meaningful to you. In the preamble to meetings, it states specifically that atheists are perfectly capable of working the program.

In fact, just thinking about it... I'm the only one in our home group who DOES attend church. I recall being rather nonplussed when I first joined Alanon when I was told quite forcibly in one group that I didn't need to believe in God. I told them that was OK, because I did. They then came back more forcibly with "Ah - but you don't need to!" In fact that group was quite forcible about a number of things, and I didn't go back.

Which brings me on to another thing... if you do decide to go to Alanon, it might be useful to attend different groups because they are all different even if they're following the same kind of meeting structure - and you will inevitably find that some suit you better than others.

Neumena

UPDATE:

Well, confrontation happened tonight, rather than Sunday as planned. There was an insignificant argument about some petty BS, she asked if I was mad at her over that, and it couldn't be held back anymore.

I was hoping for remorse and a sincere promise to get help. I got sorrow and a half-hearted promise to get help. She's so upset with her life (she has had a rough hand dealt her...chronic illness make her feel like crap all the time). She's so convinced she has no (happy) future she'll do anything to escape the present...makes me feel a fool for trying to build a future together. She agreed to do whatever I wanted to stay together, but seems to have no interest in getting help solely for her own good. I made it clear to her, seek help, stop substance abuse, or we won't have much longer together.

Worst part...just over the past couple days I've found concrete evidence that she's been huffing paint fumes as well. She completely denied it though couldn't even address the evidence I presented...another lie tears me up more than any of the rest of it.

Anyway, in as much of a future as we have together, there's therapy ahead for us and Al-Anon for me at least. Hopefully we can find a way through this though I just don't know...

Croissant

Neumana. I'm really sorry to hear this.

Any illness she has is going to be made worse by drinking anyway. There's no logic to what her argument is.

I'm so sorry....I actually probably didn't realise she was so deep into the mindset of her drinking. It seems she is in deep, and the paint fumes....I can't even imagine how you found that out.

You do what you need to do for closure on this....for now, I am very very sad for the future you wanted with her and she seems to be saying no to that. It's not going to be what you hoped if she doesn't get help.

Put your life first. I wish I could tell you not to get caught up in the games now...protect yourself - if only for the sake of your future wife you may not have met yet and children, try not to let any more damage happen to you.

Whatever she does from here is not your responsibility. Honestly.

ladyscribbler

I don't really see a benefit to couple's counseling with someone who is drinking alcoholically and huffing paint. She is not in her right mind. Having a counselor try to make her see things your way is not the answer to this.
I also agree with previous posters who said that a lot of her "functioning" is the result of you enabling and propping up her lifestyle. While that seems like a loving choice, it is actually doing her harm. Every time you protect her from consequences, it gives her one less reason to seek sobriety for herself.
Do some individual work- Alanon, therapy, anything. Find out why none of this insane behavior is a deal breaker for you. You really do deserve better.

Neumena

Thanks,

It's definitely a deal breaker...if this was how she was acting at the beginning we wouldn't have made it past a couple dates. But while she's always been "a drinker" the most concerning activity (hiding & lying about it) has occurred over the past 5-6 months...I'm just trying to figure out if anything can be salvaged from the past 2+ years.

Croissant

Yes, I made my comments earlier in the thread about relationship counselling because I thought she might be open and not have progressed so far.

If I can say, she is so far in, she has no idea what she's losing with you. Unfortunately, that's the saddest thing for both of you.

Wishing you all the best with it.

Neumena

Yeah, tried to point that out...she's trading long term stability and happiness for short term satisfaction...classic addict behavior, logic need not apply.

Looked in her car, cause that's where the booze often is now (the best place, right?). Found a can of spray paint. Couple days later she came home reeking of paint. Checked car again, can was gone but there was a plastic shopping bag that also reeked of paint. She doesn't have a job or any hobbies that would require her exposure to paint.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I'm getting there.

Another big dilemma is if I tell her parents the extent of her problem...she's BEGGED me not to, but I think it would be best if I did...especially if we break up, she'll need family support.

changeneeded

Everyone here always has such great advice.

My very first post was a little like yours, (I've changed my name since then) except that I'm married 20 years, a bit more known eachother for 25. It doesn't change. Not unless you mean what you say.

I don't remember exactly who, but there were two people who called me out and informed me that "functioning" is NOT possible. A functioning person would not be hiding alcohol. Yep, that's the kind of responses got.

One person said something to the affect of your husband hiding alcohol in the garage isn't normal. Why wouldn't he just keep it in the fridge or cupboard like most people? Another told me he wasn't going to change; it would only get worse, why would I be any different than the rest of the people on the board?

I thought they didn't know what they were talking about. Well, the one about hiding alcohol hit me hard and between the eyes. The one about the likely hood of him changing I wasn't too happy about.

"She doesn't know who I am."

I'm still here, and my A is hiding bottles again. Okay - still.

That doesn't mean things can't change for you, but do what you say you're going to do, follow through and don't give in. Otherwise, you will be like some of us,five to ten years later, and you will be here, answering a post just like the one you wrote.

NWGRITS

Couples counseling with an active A is like shoveling the walk while it's still snowing. It's pointless. Until she comes to terms with HER problem, you're just wasting money on a perfectly good therapist. Work on yourself because you are the only person you have any power to control.

If you do choose to notify her family, be prepared for a bit of backlash. Depending on the family dynamics, you could just be poking the bear. Just a word of caution since this is all pretty new to you.

Rosalba

This ^^^. Counselling is a complete waste of time and money when addiction's present, unless the client is also addressing their alcoholism/drug abuse/gambling/whatever - of their own free will, because they want to recover. By all means get counselling for yourself, though Alanon will address the issue more directly.

If you split up with her, her family will know soon enough. Even if she tries to hide her various addictions and blame it all on you, her family will know soon enough. Don't make it your business to get involved, unless you want to sign up for another, different merry-go-round.

FeelingGreat

Hi Neumena, I've just read through the thread and as a former alcoholic, it seems obvious your GF is in real trouble. The paint sniffing is especially alarming. You're going to have to make some hard decisions here. She's still at the bargaining stage, which is 'if you stay I'll do this or that'. She can't admit to the paint problem, not because she wants to lie but because the denial is too strong.
Be very clear with yourself here. If you stay you have years of this ahead of you and will have to change your goals and dreams. That's your choice, but make it with open eyes, and a clear idea of what you'll face. You're worried about forcing her further into addiction, but you're with her now and she's still using/drinking. So your presence isn't helping her. It might be keeping her away from the real crisis she needs to face her addictions.
If you leave, it will probably precipitate a crisis. It sounds like she's barely hanging on now, but she's not using that desperation to seek help of her own accord. In fact she can't even face the extent of her addiction. Normally I'd say let her tell her family herself if and when she wants, but she's not going to do that. It possibly won't help but maybe you should tell them.
Good wishes for whatever you decide to do.

ladyscribbler

I understand. If my ex had behaved the way he does now when we first met eight years ago it would have been no go for me as well.
It sounds like she has progressed very far into her disease in a short time and is still nowhere near a bottom. At this time there is probably nothing to salvage. She will do a lot of quacking to try to keep you around because she doesn't want to lose her enabler, but everything she is doing is not to save the relationship, it is to protect her disease. You can't save her, but she can drag you down, and the only return you are going to get on your two year investment is more misery and pain and wasted years of your life if you stay.

fairlyuncertain

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. Al-anon is a fantastic resource. Whether you break up or not, it offers great support and a clear-eyed look at alcoholism and its effect on family.

As for what can be salvaged: you have the opportunity to learn a lot about addiction, any tendencies you have toward codependence, and you don't have children or a pregnancy, thank goodness.
When I first went to Al Anon I had a lot of difficulty understanding my unique situation. Now, I see how common it is, and I'm more able to easily spot red flags and detach--a helpful skill if you start dating again.

Your girlfriend is already in a deeply committed relationship: with alcohol and other drugs. In a best case scenario, she will have a primary commitment to her sobriety, with any other relationships coming second to that. I hope the best for both of you!

martina12

Hi Neumena

I'm so glad you found us on this site for help and support. I joined this time last year when I was so very desperate for help. I knew nothing about alcoholism at all. I thought alcoholics were homeless people on park benches with paper bags. How naive I was!

I married my 'knight in shining armour' thinking that he was a high flying civil servant with connections to government. No way did I think there was any problem with alcohol.

Then I noticed the hidden empty bottles of vodka. Confrontations followed...then rehab etc etc. He had major shakes from detoxing and needed medication to stop the shakes.

I realised that this was actually a serious problem. I have 2 lovely children and I was compromised as to what to do? I loved him with all my heart and so did my children but I was putting my children and myself at risk with him.

I started to read up and learn about alcoholism. I went on when hell of steep learning curve! We were all at risk with him living with us...the crazy train and all that entails and it only gets worse...progressive and all that.

I got back in touch with the rehab with family side and sought counselling..with their support I put boundaries in place with no vodka. I thought he would seek help again..oh no he ran pronto to where he could drink vodka in copious quantities. End of marriage.

I was left grief stricken and bereft as were my children. Even worse I started to worry about my own nightly wine drinking to such an extent that I now have periods of time without any alcohol as I worry that things may escalate for me.

I would like to echo others advice and run as fast as you can away from this situation as hard as this will be for you. The longer you leave it the harder it will be....she certainly doesn't sound like a responsible wife/mother already?

Thoughts are with you as I know how hard it is...