Hawkeye13

Hi Stung;
If you don't mind, I'm going to put on my recovering alcoholic shoes here and cross to that side of the street for a minute.

I don't know if you look at the Newcomers page much, but Dee posted a very helpful thread on Relapse yesterday.
I don't know how to do the hot link thing but it raised some issues about when relapse is part of the process of recovery or just a cop out.
There was even another thread running the same time written by ThatDeliveryGuy about how relapse was OK as the process goes--sort of what your therapist is saying?

Anyway, my take on this is that relapse is a very dangerous and slippery slope for an addict. You say he stayed totally clean, had his "slip" and now is slipping regularly.
This is my case in point.

Addicts give themselves "permission" to do this I feel. I know when I had my relapse, it got much easier to justify other slips since I'd already "blown" my big effort at total abstinence.
So I'd say to myself "What the heck self--I have it under control and can handle it."
But I really couldn't because it was building a hidden momentum under the surface which was leading me ever so slowly back to the lifestyle and use of alcohol as a regular thing.

If you read any of the many relapse threads that seems to be a common thing--it's only the pace and severity that seems to vary depending on the person.
The journey back to alcohol use is not a variable, however.

That's why we never see anybody posting on the other side who really manages "moderation" with any success.

I've been very lucky in that I manage not drinking pretty easily which is certainly the exception.
My relapse was because I really thought it was
a "managed" problem and that I, as a very special snowflake like your husband, had managed it and could moderate.

I rethought that and and been totally zero drinking since last August and
I know I cannot "dabble" with a few drinks without at least some slippage back into alcoholism.

I really think your husband needs to "get" that he can't do this and not be building momentum back towards full-blown addiction.
Because you like / love the person he is, you are keeping the door open in part on this therapist's advice, but I'm not so sure that it is OK to keep slipping.

Maybe the stakes need to be higher on your side in terms of your boundary so that he is shaken out of his complacency with relapse (or not)

Sorry this is so long and kind of "advice laden" but when he was really abstaining things were going so well and that's the direction the momentum should be moving--not back towards relapse as an OK thing in any form.

My best, as always , to all of you including your hubs.

Stung

Firesprite, I agree. My counselor explained it as that in recovery sometimes the seeds are planted but the conditions just aren't right. With relapses sometimes more is revealed after the fact and those conditions allow those previously planted seeds to sprout. There are changes. The chaos is at an 2 year minimum thanks to changes in both of us.

I know he's trying. It's a lot of changes for both of us on individual levels and in our marriage. Outside of the relapses, we've been improving. That's what makes all of this so tricky. It's two steps forward, one giant step back. The overall movement has been forward.

Hopeful4, a few weeks ago I was joking with my counselor that she was 1-800-RENT-A-MOM for me. Lol I've had an office mom in each office I've worked in, and each time some other motherly figure has supported me when my mom turned against me. I need to find a nice lady in her mid 50s to adopt me. She would get to play grandma and be inundated with super cute artwork from my 2 and 1 year olds and I would get someone to lean on. Sounds like a good setup to me!

GracieLou

I kind of agree with both of you on this point.

If you are dealing with a binge addict or alcoholic then going once a month or every few weeks appears to be more of a binge then recovery. They are just using. If you look at it from the everyday addict or alcoholic then once a month does appear to move towards recovery.

From what I have seen in the rooms and on a personal level is it does get worse before it gets better. They are at bottom, but not quite. The suffering that they experience after each relapse is sometimes the bottom more than the actual desire to stop. They want the relapsing to stop and the only way to do that is to stop completely. I know that sounds weird but that is what I have seen. They can’t get drunk and they can’t get sober. That is bottom for many. It may take many relapses to see it though.

The part I see in his case that surprises me is the continued denial he is an alcoholic. Most that go to recovery, relapse, recovery, etc. do admit it, they just are not ready to do anything about it yet or use that as an excuse to continue.

hopeful4

LOL...my extra Mom's both have artwork from my girls displayed! They also both sent messages to my older DD this morning wishing her luck at her 9th grade orientation today. I tell my kids all the time, you cannot have too many people who love you. Lucky for me, I also have an older sister who fills in too!

RENT-A-MOM....Maybe we should go into business for this Stung!!!! LOL!

XXX

Stung

The denial of being an alcoholic, I think, was an attempt to make me fight. When he drinks he wants to fight, he looks for and creates those opportunities. It shocked me but I didn't take the bait.

He was an every day drinker and he's hidden it from me consistently. He has some serious deep rooted shame and guilt and anxiety and sneaking around drinking makes these things come out to the forefront. He projects all of his mommy issues on me to boot. What I think he's lacking is realizing that sobriety is for HIM. That he's worthy of living a good life. That he deserves happiness. I think he's trying to be sober for me or our girls or our family when he's near us everyday. I don't think he believes that his life is worth living just for him. Big obligations and big, big expectations.

FireSprite

Dee's thread:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-relapses.html


Thatdeliveryguy's:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ney-again.html


Good stuff, thanks for the suggestion!

Florence

Resist providing or leaning on explanations for his behavior -- it is what it is. Eventually it doesn't matter what's driving his behavior, the problem is his behavior remains problematic for you.

I read a great quote the other day, by Ira Glass of all people:

You've come such a long way. Progress, lady.

FireSprite

Absolutely agree Stung, I think he keeps waiting for you to "let him off the hook" now that he's gone through so many paces. I'll bet you anything he NEVER expected this to go on this long & part of his unraveling is dealing with having no control over the timeline. I think, for me, it all boils down to intent. There will ALWAYS be a reason to drink & the only person an addict is 100% around to depend on is themselves so the desire & motivation to stay sober HAS to come from within.

That desire to change can't be externalized on anyone or anything else. (for most, I'm not speaking in absolutes - there are always exceptions... even more confusing, oy.) To have that kind of INTERNAL change, most people experience whole-life changes to support it - spiritually, emotionally, physically. Those are the areas that we can see growth & progress when the desire inside is driving a person toward sobriety, right? That's what we mean by actions not words?

GracieLou

I was thinking about this thread when I took my walk at lunch.

I wanted to ask and you can tell me it is none of my business as I don’t know your whole story or situation but why are you talking to his sponsor?

I am a very private person. The Breathalyzer and the conversing with my sponsor would make me run for the hills. My recovery is a very private and personal matter for me. I go to AA and I share but the mess is saved for my sponsor. If I thought for one second she was talking about me to others, especially my SO, she would not be my sponsor. I have a hard time trusting and she is about the only one I trust implicitly. There are others I talk to but the deep down mess is for her only.

The Breathalyzer I get. You have children, I can understand and relate. I don’t think there is any way around that.

I have to own my sobriety. I have to own my recovery. I have to do this so that I am the only one responsible for it. Not my SO, my kids, my mother….Me and only me. I don’t think I would get that if I had others running interference.

I get your mom thing. I have no contact with mine as well and one of the last things she did was a factor in my decision. When I went to AA for help she told everyone. My kids, My ex husband, my relatives, all of her friends and even people I have not talked to in years. This upset me a great deal because the release of that information was not for my benefit, it was for hers. She never thought I would stay sober so she was waiting for me to fail so she could tell everyone she was right about me all along. She still pulls that by calling me a dry drunk. It is not true but it hurt after all the work I have done. I know she was protecting herself and her actions so I have pretty much let it go when I let her go out of my life.

I am not saying you are doing that by any means, I don’t think you are. I am just pointing it out because he may feel that way. He may feel that everyone is waiting for him to relapse again so he gives up and does it anyway. This is by no means your fault, it is ALL on him but I guess I just wanted to point out that if you can back up from his recovery even more and put more of it on him he may wake up faster.

The less people to blame the more he has to look at himself.

HHTexas

Hugs to you. I relate to the once a month relapses. And the worries about kids. But you are so strong. And wise . Your kids are blessed for it.

Stung

Well, a little background. I have a controlling personality. Have you ever heard of the Enneagram? It classifies my dysfunction as a perfectionist and protector personality. Basically I'm aggressive, inflexible and controlling. I normally keep those negatives focused solely on myself but codependency had caused me to put these things on my husband too. His alcoholism bled into my stuff and this my dysfunction bled into his stuff. The protector aspects make me a motherly figure to my husband. I defend him. I tell him what to do and how to fix his problems and when he doesn't I get impatient and take over. His mom has always treated him this way. I'm trying really hard (and making progress) on stopping this behavior. I'm also a perfectionist and this wretchedly awful alcoholism, narcissistic, controlling stuff has made me isolate like a mofo.

His sponsor. Well, he and his wife are friends of myself and my husband. If God sends people to help others, they were sent to help us and hopefully we help them or will be given the opportunity to pay them back. I reached out to his sponsor (a friend who understands) because I needed to reach out. I could have texted or called a person from Alanon but I'm not comfortable asking for help to begin with. I shouldn't have. His sponsor is his. But he has two sponsors. Not that that makes it okay. His business is his. Thanks for reminding me.

I'm not waiting for him to fail. I'm waiting for him to see what he has. To see what he's missing. He really does have a wonderful life and he's stealing it from himself.

GracieLou

That helps and while I don't quite understand your condition I am not judging. We all have our issues and problems. It is good that you are so aware and working on them

I agree 100%. I think God puts people in our lives and he place us in the paths of others.


I get this. I have a hard time too. I always feel better after but that phone feels so heavy to pick it up and dial it.

I didn’t think you felt that way, but he might.

Not sure it will help but one of the things I used to do was see his potential. I wanted so bad for him to see what I saw. To see the potential he has if he would only stay sober long enough to see it.

I had to stop doing that. I had to see where he is today, right now. As long as I stay in the now, I can keep my expectations for running rampant.

EmmyG

GracieLou,

You reminded me of a conversation I had with AH awhile back. I said "Why do you have to he so miserable?! You should be happy! You have so much going for you!!" And he said something like "I'll be miserable if I want to be, you can't dictate my happiness. Who are you to decide when another person should be happy?"
It made me think, why am I trying to control his mood? If he wants to be miserable, let him. Maybe he'll never see his potential, but that's on HIM. It takes time to let go of that. I've always been that way - wanting those around me to be happy at all costs.

GracieLou

It does take time and practice. I am still not very good at it but at least I can spot when I am doing it, well most of the time…LOL

I was at a meeting last night and the lead said something like “I hated happy people. I wanted them to be miserable like me”. And that is so true. I never looked at happy people and thought, why can’t I be happy like them?, I always wanted them to sink into my misery to see where I was.

Being on the other side now, it makes perfect sense that the active alcoholic does not want to go up, they want others to come down and when they don’t, they feel like nobody cares or understands them. But that is on them to get help and find people that do. Whether in AA or another program. It is still their choice to remain miserable.

They have to get sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Stung

Well hell. He's drinking again today. I don't know what's going on but I'm glad he won't be around here looking for a Stung sized emotional punching bag. I'm curious how much more of this he wants? So weird that about this time last year he started spiraling too. Completely freaked out a week before big DD's 2nd birthday. If he keeps this up he'll be drunk and absent for her 3rd birthday too and this year she'll actually really notice.

redatlanta

Oh Stung .

I hope he turns it around quick.

You are handling it so well - I'm sorry about your mom not being there but we are here.

LvWrAM123

So sorry...

I do believe that sometimes quitting takes practice, hence the idea of progressive recovery? It does not seem unusual that an A might have some time of sobriety and then think perhaps they have a handle and can moderate. Eventually they will (hopefully) realize this is not possible and will reassess. I also think that treatment can help. Maybe your hubby needs more than AA. Can you find a time to discuss where his head is at during a sober time? If he indicates a desire to quit and stop relapsing, can you ask him if he has ever considered intensive OP or IP treatment? (Vs. "making him" go?)

You are right that they have to want to do it for themselves or it won't stick. 1st time my hubby quit it was for me-started slipping after a year. 2nd time was for him. Precipitating that 2nd attempt he finally had the realization that he would lose everything in his life that he cared about if he didn't pull it together. 1st time he stopped drinking, but wasn't "in recovery", like this second time. It is definitely different this time around. I was lucky in that treatment was his idea, otherwise I would have been where you are at-wanting to "mandate" it. It must be tough to both have done so much work and be in such a better place but still be dealing with relapses, and because there is so much improvement, you hate to just throw in the towel.

I too was frustrated with my perspective of his life as being a good life and not understanding what it was he felt he needed to escape from. I understand now that part of it was that he never felt worthy of having a good life. No self esteem, childhood abandonment issues, low self worth, etc. I will never forget how broken he looked the day I dropped him off at rehab and hugged him and told him I loved him and he said, "I know you do, but I never understood why. I think it is finally time for me to learn to love myself." They drink because they are alcoholics first and foremost, but there is almost always a common thread among them of shame and fear underneath it all. The balance between empathy and codependency can be hard to sort through. Hang in there-

Good vibes coming your way in this difficult time...

PippiLngstockng

Stung, you understood me the other day, and I am getting you here, too.

This is what I relate to, very strongly. I believed that my A would get sober because he fantastically loved his four beautiful children and enjoyed a mostly wonderful family life and I was going to move every mountain to keep things that way.

I was completely wrong and subsequently dumbfounded.

You, imho, are assuming a logic that doesn't work with addiction.

The profound, infinite love of his family was not enough to stop our A from drinking.

I agree wholeheartedly with Hawkeye.

Your boundaries need hardening. I am really, really sorry.

Florence

My XAH used to relapse and cause commotion right before any holiday where he himself wasn't set up to receive presents. He was always bright and bushy tailed during his summer birthday, and usually fresh off of an autumn relapse and buff and shine for Xmas.

I know now that he was drinking at our daughter's first birthday party, August. I tried to confront him but it was no use -- it was my last time trying to argue about it. A month later, we celebrated our anniversary and went camping, when he left in the middle of the night for hours. I lay there in the tent alone and knew then he hadn't slipped, it was a full relapse. He was carrying around vodka in a seal-tight coffee mug. I'd seen the mug. The pieces came together, I made him leave the house until he had a recovery plan. When my son celebrated his 12th birthday a few days later, XAH was on a relapse vacation, nobody knew where he was (he'd stolen all of our camping gear from the week prior out of the garage and went to a campground and turned off his phone). His parents declined to show up for my son's birthday dinner because it was "uncomfortable" for them. A month later they put his present in the garage. This was the third year in a row that he disappeared over my son's birthday.

One of the hallmarks of alcoholism is that they are frequently unable to quit drinking despite catastrophic consequences. It's like watching a slow-motion car wreck, yeah? You can't stop it, but you have to get everyone else out of the way.

FireSprite

I'm sorry Stung, how are you today? Are you feeling impacted by this all or are you feeling ok overall about your boundaries & expectations?

Are you feeling your own recovery limits tested? (It seems from your posts that enmeshment is one of your biggest hurdles in your respective recoveries so it makes sense to me that a relapse on his part triggers a different action for you in your own recovery in order to not take steps backward yourself, right? I hope that makes sense.....)

I hope you are getting the support you need!