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RAH told me his amends today

Old 08-03-2014, 02:12 PM
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And I understand that. I've been here for two years and it's the same things here over and over and over. Their poor son is getting the sh*t end of the stick here. I'm used to her circling around and making.excuses. It's just so incredibly frustrating as a child of an alcoholic to see someone willingly doing this and basically playing dumb after years of the same thing.
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:21 PM
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For arguments sake, I've been at it for over 30 years. Both of my parents are alcoholics and then I married one. I was the abused little boy growing up and now I'm working on myself.

I'm not going to trigger on her situation but rather see the good she's doing in her own recovery.
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:33 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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NW I understand how you feel. As an acoa myself I find myself wanting to save the children. Unfortunately we can't. It would make us nuts even trying. And some people really don't see a problem with this kind of ' toughening up' of boys. I find it appalling but I can't stop it.

What I can do is share my feelings regarding these amends. I am not a formal AA member but do believe in the importance of making amends to our loved ones at least. The OPs description sounds like a really attempt at appeasing her and not true amends
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:45 PM
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Making your first amends two months after a slip is probably a mistake. If you are no more than eight weeks past the self delusion entailed to drink, you almost certainly lack the self awareness required to do a ninth step. It's not about saying "I'm sorry" - anyone close to him already knows the sorry state of his affairs. It's about making amends. If he didn't clearly state what he was going to do differently or ask what he could do to right past wrongs, what you experienced was far from the mark of what the ninth step is about.
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:55 PM
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I'm not in AA, but isn't 2 months a little too early to take in the full panoramic view of the wreckage of what ones drinking has done?

From the other side, I see a lot of posts where people get on the Pink Cloud, and go through what they think is a checklist to sobriety, before they've even had a chance to understand how to stay sober.

Re the sarcasm, yes, it's an unhealthy thing. I still deal with a Father who is an adult child of an alcoholic, every second sentence is ended with, "only joking". Well, he can "only joke" by himself now.
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Old 08-03-2014, 03:16 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Lizatola,
I knew the minute I saw the title of your thread, where this was going.
As an AA person myself and ACOA, all I can say is,
"That was not an amends".
I think his "sponsor" is Snuffleufucus.
Or, given your husband's past behaviour, he has picked a lovely gentleman that he can "Identify with". I can only imagine the "sponsorship" going on there.
That said, I really don't know that he is ever going to take his seat in class and listen to the message.
I would have stopped him at the first couple of lines and said,
"Stop! I see where this is going and I am not going to let you vomit all over me with your sick, bonkers, deranged, loony soup!"
Basta! as they say in Italy, Enough!
Is it really good recovery for an AlAnon to have given him a polite audience for his verbal vomit?
I am really asking....
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Old 08-03-2014, 03:50 PM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NWGRITS View Post
And I understand that. I've been here for two years and it's the same things here over and over and over. Their poor son is getting the sh*t end of the stick here. I'm used to her circling around and making.excuses. It's just so incredibly frustrating as a child of an alcoholic to see someone willingly doing this and basically playing dumb after years of the same thing.
At this point, I'm too emotionally drained to defend myself or whatever. Believe me, I frustrate myself at times. All I can say is that I am grateful for your caring and your concern and I truly do know where your heart is in this, I appreciate that. Thank you!
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:14 PM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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What's happening to your son and how your husband is justifying it is very disturbing.

My mother "bullied" me and it trashed my self-esteem and made it very hard to
trust and interact "normally" with other people as an adult.

I don't think your husband is really working at recovery from this example of "amends"
so the beat goes on.

I'm very sorry you are suffering from his quacking, blaming, and aggression.
That's not much of a family life.
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:30 PM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
I doubt very much his sponsor knew about that 'amends'. I'd bet real $$ he winged it and was going on a fishing expedition to get you to give him a checklist of what you want to see. Here is my cynical opinion - he either wants you to give him a short cut, doesn't want to engage in real recovery and isn't even seeing a sponsor just making it up as he goes, or he has a personality that, at a fundamental level, does not allow him to 'see' anything outside his inner experience.
Oh I hate agreeing with Thumper on this one, but it fits his M.O. He's displaying all the external "show" of a recovery without ever REALLY making it past Step 1, IMO. His history is so relevant here because he has proven to be able to sustain illusions for pretty good lengths of time before losing his control on it. (((((hugs))))) Liz, I hope you continue to take steps to ensure your independence.
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:59 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
Oh I hate agreeing with Thumper on this one, but it fits his M.O. He's displaying all the external "show" of a recovery without ever REALLY making it past Step 1, IMO. His history is so relevant here because he has proven to be able to sustain illusions for pretty good lengths of time before losing his control on it. (((((hugs))))) Liz, I hope you continue to take steps to ensure your independence.
Yes, this! He's a lot of things, but a recovering alcoholic isn't it. He hasn't shown any true signs of recovery. Blame-shifting, gaslighting, all of his kind games aren't recovery. He's a dry drunk, not an RAH.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:50 PM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jmartin View Post
My AW has made several attempts to "make amends" that have also devolved into similar blaming of others, offering of excuses, and other things that have not sounded much to me like she is accepting responsibility for her actions. As if to say yes, she drank, but there were extenuating circumstances! Like you, I have sometimes wondered whether she is getting bad advice from a sponsor or counselor. I am left with the feeling that she is apologizing because she knows she is supposed to..., or in order to get something that she wants
Not to hijack this thread and Lizatola I've already told you what I think... his amends were, awful, incomplete, and a host of other things I can think of that don't involve nice language. I liked the other response about amends and that is you don't have to accept them.

So back to my hijacking and a few things that Jmartin mentioned above that resonated with me. First I confess having rationalized my addiction while active and in the early days of sobriety with the extenuating circumstances nonsense. We addicts are all too good at rationalizing stuff and our bad behavior. Whats tough to do and admit is that there are a pile of other people that have experienced (fill in the blank-loss, illness, rejection, abuse, etc) that DON'T go self medicating. At the end of the day if our drinking is affecting other people negatively then all of our rationalization doesn't matter. So if you are a little, shall we say "perturbed" by that you should be.

Regarding the apologizing because she feels like she has to. Honestly from the addict perspective I GET that temptation. Your spouse is angry. Kids are angry. Everyone else you may have harmed is angry. Ya wanna make that go away and I definitely know I felt some pressure. You know you screwed up and want to make that go away STAT. I've done my first round of making amends but I confess that the ones very early on were probably made for selfish reasons. I in fact likely need to do a REDO of them. That said trust your gut which it sounds like you're already doing. If you feel like she's checking off a list to pacify you you're probably RIGHT. If she's genuinely sincere time and actions will tell. Just felt a need to respond to this piece since it jumped out at me.

Hang in there all and peace in your journeys wherever they make take you.
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:24 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NWGRITS View Post
Yes, this! He's a lot of things, but a recovering alcoholic isn't it. He hasn't shown any true signs of recovery. Blame-shifting, gaslighting, all of his kind games aren't recovery. He's a dry drunk, not an RAH.
True, but at least with 5-7 meetings a week, there's a chance that something will sink in over time. He was a dry drunk for the first 15 years of our marriage before he even started drinking again so I'm well aware that this recovery is very new and that old habits and thinking patterns are hard to break. I have to laugh because I can just look at myself for that example!
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:45 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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True, but at least with 5-7 meetings a week, there's a chance that something will sink in over time.
Is he a narcissist? That's not how narcissism works.
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:35 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Florence View Post
Is he a narcissist? That's not how narcissism works.
He was told by our marriage therapist that he was, but I've heard many in AA and Al Anon tell me that sometimes the alcoholism looks like narcissism. I think over time it will become more apparent if there is a personality disorder that is resistant to certain levels of change.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:55 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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I feel for you Liz. Narcissists are really tough to break away from and they are experts at gas lighting.

This weekend I was pleasantly surprised to find a huge message board on reddit about narc parents that pretty much confirmed for me that my entire upbringing was as a classic scapegoat child. I was reading other people's experiences that I verbatim could have written myself. I wonder if your husband is providing similar experiences for your son.

Is your son currently in counseling or therapy? I cannot control who my parents are but I soooo wish that I would have started individual therapy when I was a teenager. I might have followed a more fulfilling career path, choose a partner that didn't have similar dysfunction, etc. rather than trying to do whatever I could to make my mom show me love. Your son might be doing something similarly (and he may not confess it to you) trying to gain his father's love that truly will always be unattainable. From what I've read from your posts it sounds like your AH projects a lot of nasty stuff onto your son. Trying to force him into a worldwide road trip, waking him in the middle if the night to talk about your lab results and family history of cancer, admitting to you that he "needs" to treat your son in a "tough" manner to prepare him for the "big bad" real world. That can't feel good as a teenage boy.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:19 AM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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Stung, do you have a link for that reddit thread?
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:23 AM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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I don't think your husband is really working at recovery from this example of "amends"
My ex is a textbook case of NPD, and this attempt at "amends" sounds very much like him. I'm vaguely sorry but basically, it's all your fault. That's not "amends" -- that's blame shifting.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:24 AM
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Liz, have you ever heard this one?

A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately.

A faithful Christian man heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to himself, “I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a divine miracle to save me.”

The neighbors came by his house and said to him, “We’re leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!” But the man declined. “I have faith that God will save me.”

As the man stood on his porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called to him, “Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!” But the man again said, “No thanks, God will save me.”

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into his living room and the man had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw him at the window. “We will come up and rescue you!” they shouted. But the man refused, waving them off saying, “Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!”

The flood waters rose higher and higher and the man had to climb up to his rooftop.

A helicopter spotted him and dropped a rope ladder. A rescue officer came down the ladder and pleaded with the man, "Grab my hand and I will pull you up!" But the man STILL refused, folding his arms tightly to his body. “No thank you! God will save me!”

Shortly after, the house broke up and the floodwaters swept the man away and he drowned.

When in Heaven, the man stood before God and asked, “I put all of my faith in You. Why didn’t You come and save me?”

And God said, “Son, I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more were you looking for?”
I understand the need to wait and see. Time will tell, right? But I think time has told you. It's your call now whether or not you want to be chained to an abusive, narcissist alcoholic. Based on his patterns he's shown you over and over again, nothing is changing other than his stories.

When I used to doubt myself, I would go back and reread my old posts, all the way back from the beginning. The stuff I dealt with is shocking in hindsight. The stuff you put up with from this guy is similarly shocking and dismaying. He's mean to you and your special needs son. He's MEAN. It's hard to hear you continue to defend him and defend your choice to stay.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:27 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Going to AA every day doesn't make a person sober any more than standing in your garage makes you a car. I met a man once who had faithfully attended AA for decades but never got sober. He fell into the Christmas tree at a meeting once because he was so drunk he couldn't stand up. Recovery comes when he WANTS TO CHANGE. Which, demonstrated by his actions and hid treatment of you, he doesn't want. Hr keeps reeling you back in, but you're a willing.participant. Every time you post, we remind you that xyz isn't healthy, what he's doing isn't part of the program, he's dry drunking it, it's abusive, whatever. And then you start backpedaling saying that you knew all that already and laughing at yourself. You take him seriously every single time. You shouldn't be laughing at yourself for these things. You're throwing yourself under the bus time and time again, and it appears that you enjoy it. That's the sad part. I worry so much for you and your son, but I know I need to stop. This is the life you clearly want, as evidence by your posts over the past two years. And that's so sad, but it's your choice.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Florence View Post
Stung, do you have a link for that reddit thread?
http://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/
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