1st post here - Toxic Relationships
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brink of Sanity, BC
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1st post here - Toxic Relationships
I have been a quiet lurker here for a few months and want to thank all who share their stories and thoughts.
Would like to share an article which has helped me alot .
Wish I had read it at the beginning of my relationship with my AH. Forward....
If you have (or had) toxic relationships of any kind, read this now!
Warning! This story includes a naughty word – however - this word is necessary – because its shock-value is what catapulted me to change my life. I share this naughty word now with only the most loving intentions – hoping it might be an empowering caffeinated jolt to any sleeping spirits out there!
About a decade and a half ago I used to joke that for me all dating should be re-named ‘blind-dating” – and instead of saying I was “seeing someone right now” – I should be more honest, and say, “I’m dimly viewing someone.”
I remember I was once “dimly viewing” this particular guy. I’ve written about him before (here in an article about good compromise vs. bad compromise) . I explained how every time I said this guy’s name, my girlfriends would sing the theme song to Batman. Not because this man looked great in black Spandex tights. No, no. It was because he was a bad man.
“Dadadadadadada Bad-man! Bad-man!” my girlfriends would sing, right after I’d finish telling a particularly bad Bad-man episode—of which there were many.
Let’s call this ex of mine “Bruce Wayne” – to protect his not-so-innocent secret identity.
Today I want to share something I never told you about Bruce.
Ready?
Bruce’s “dadadadadada bad-behavior” began very early on - a few weeks into our relationship.
Yep, right out of the gate Bruce displayed what I felt were highly controlling and paranoically jealous behaviors.
Yet I continued to date him.
I even went away with Bruce for a week long vacation in Turkey – where we had a very big fight one evening. I made a silly joke to our Turkish waiter – who then laughed – and touched my shoulder before he left our table. Bruce then became convinced that I was flirting with this Turkish waiter. He specifically wanted to know if I’d rather be dating this waiter – a man who could barely speak English – plus lived well beyond a 5,000 mile radius of my zip code. I kept reassuring Bruce I was not the teeniest bit interested in this Turkish dude – yet Bruce refused to talk to me for a full two days of our vacation!
When I came home from vacation, I sought out therapy. I found a nice older psychotherapist, named Sid, who eventually became like a “grandfather from another great-grand-mother.” I adored Sid.
“You’ll never believe what Bruce said/did last night,” I’d begin each and every therapy session. And then I’d launch into another “Dadadadadadada Bad-man Episode”!
“Bruce said he doesn’t want me to have brunch with girlfriends on weekends anymore – unless he comes along.”
“Bruce told me he doesn’t want me to take an evening painting class – because he thinks I just want to meet someone.”
“Bruce told me he doesn’t want me to go to the gym – because he thinks I just want to meet someone.”
“Bruce told me he doesn’t like it when I come home happy from work – because he worries I enjoy work more than him! He actually became angry the other day because I came home so happy!”
Each week I’d tell Sid story after story – quickly followed by rationalization after rationalization – always explaining why I should stay with Bruce.
“You know what your problem is Karen?” Sid asked me one session. “You’re so smart, you’re stupid.”
I laughed. “What’s that supposed to mean?”
“You are able to over-think things so much – that you wind up talking yourself out of what you already know.”
“So you think I should break up with Bruce?” I asked.
Sid sighed loudly. “I’m a therapist. I’m not supposed to tell you what to do. But if you want my honest opinion… I can’t believe you’re gonna stay with him, when he’s an *******.”
“Wow! I can’t believe you just called Bruce an a***hole,” I said. “But you’re right, he is an a**hole.”
“Actually, I didn’t call HIM an a**hole! I called YOU an a**hole. You heard me wrong. I said, ‘If you continue to stay with Bruce, then YOU are an a**hole.’”
“What? I’m not the a**hole! Bruce is the a**hole!”
“At this point, Karen, if you stay with Bruce knowing what you know – then YOU are the a**hole.”
“I’m the a**hole?” I repeated this word out loud – a word as opposite in content as a mantra could ever be – but alas, more powerful than any mantra I’d ever used.
This word “a**hole” became my wake up call!
Sid was right. If I stayed with someone who was so very toxic to my well being – then I became the A**hole to me – for allowing this soul-crushing, freedom-squelching relationship to continue!
“Listen, Karen,” Sid said, “at this point in therapy we are simply wasting time talking about Bruce – and how messed up he is. Quite frankly, you are only using stories about Bruce to distract yourself from your real issues – and the important inner work you have to do on yourself. It’s time we talk about the white elephant in the room: your wounds! There’s obviously something very wounded inside of you, that you feel the need to stay with Bruce – when he is so toxic.”
Although this story happened well over a decade ago, I think about it often. I particularly think about it whenever I’ve found myself starting to enter into what I intuit might be a toxic relationship –be it in love, business or friendship.
I feel if we’re not careful we can all find ourselves wasting a lot of precious tick-tocking time complaining about how badly someone is behaving towards us.
I believe we need to stop asking questions like:
“Why is this person treating me this way?”
“Why did this person do that crappy thing to me?”
“What is wrong with this person?”
“Are they an a**hole?”
“Are they a sociopath?”
“Are they a narcissist?”
“Isn’t this person simply just a terrible person?”
The really important questions we should be asking instead are:
“What did I miss in the vetting process that I allowed this person into my life?”
“What is wounded inside me that I choose/chose to stay with this person for as long as I do/did?”
“How can I grow from this experience – so it doesn’t repeat itself into a bad pattern?”
“Do I want to make this a story about how I was a victim – or how I became a victor?”
“Do I want to waste my time, thoughts and energy on toxicity or use it for a higher purpose?”
“Aren’t I wise and strong for how I moved on to be with better people and live better days?”
If you’re presently caught up in telling stories about the toxic misbehaviors of someone – the time has come to stop getting caught up in name-calling, contempt and blame.
The time has come to recognize you’re just distracting yourself with all the drama, chaos and static!
Yep, the more you stay with and/or complain about a toxic person, the more you’re merely delaying doing the important inner work you need to do – to heal your wounds, expand your limiting beliefs, and show yourself far more love and respect.
All of this time expended on them could be time spent on expanding you – growing who you are!
My lesson/your lesson: Don’t be an a**hole to yourself. Stop staying with (and/or complaining about) toxic people. Choose to focus your time, energy and conversation around people who inspire you, support you and help you to grow you into your happiest, strongest, wisest self.
Would like to share an article which has helped me alot .
Wish I had read it at the beginning of my relationship with my AH. Forward....
If you have (or had) toxic relationships of any kind, read this now!
Warning! This story includes a naughty word – however - this word is necessary – because its shock-value is what catapulted me to change my life. I share this naughty word now with only the most loving intentions – hoping it might be an empowering caffeinated jolt to any sleeping spirits out there!
About a decade and a half ago I used to joke that for me all dating should be re-named ‘blind-dating” – and instead of saying I was “seeing someone right now” – I should be more honest, and say, “I’m dimly viewing someone.”
I remember I was once “dimly viewing” this particular guy. I’ve written about him before (here in an article about good compromise vs. bad compromise) . I explained how every time I said this guy’s name, my girlfriends would sing the theme song to Batman. Not because this man looked great in black Spandex tights. No, no. It was because he was a bad man.
“Dadadadadadada Bad-man! Bad-man!” my girlfriends would sing, right after I’d finish telling a particularly bad Bad-man episode—of which there were many.
Let’s call this ex of mine “Bruce Wayne” – to protect his not-so-innocent secret identity.
Today I want to share something I never told you about Bruce.
Ready?
Bruce’s “dadadadadada bad-behavior” began very early on - a few weeks into our relationship.
Yep, right out of the gate Bruce displayed what I felt were highly controlling and paranoically jealous behaviors.
Yet I continued to date him.
I even went away with Bruce for a week long vacation in Turkey – where we had a very big fight one evening. I made a silly joke to our Turkish waiter – who then laughed – and touched my shoulder before he left our table. Bruce then became convinced that I was flirting with this Turkish waiter. He specifically wanted to know if I’d rather be dating this waiter – a man who could barely speak English – plus lived well beyond a 5,000 mile radius of my zip code. I kept reassuring Bruce I was not the teeniest bit interested in this Turkish dude – yet Bruce refused to talk to me for a full two days of our vacation!
When I came home from vacation, I sought out therapy. I found a nice older psychotherapist, named Sid, who eventually became like a “grandfather from another great-grand-mother.” I adored Sid.
“You’ll never believe what Bruce said/did last night,” I’d begin each and every therapy session. And then I’d launch into another “Dadadadadadada Bad-man Episode”!
“Bruce said he doesn’t want me to have brunch with girlfriends on weekends anymore – unless he comes along.”
“Bruce told me he doesn’t want me to take an evening painting class – because he thinks I just want to meet someone.”
“Bruce told me he doesn’t want me to go to the gym – because he thinks I just want to meet someone.”
“Bruce told me he doesn’t like it when I come home happy from work – because he worries I enjoy work more than him! He actually became angry the other day because I came home so happy!”
Each week I’d tell Sid story after story – quickly followed by rationalization after rationalization – always explaining why I should stay with Bruce.
“You know what your problem is Karen?” Sid asked me one session. “You’re so smart, you’re stupid.”
I laughed. “What’s that supposed to mean?”
“You are able to over-think things so much – that you wind up talking yourself out of what you already know.”
“So you think I should break up with Bruce?” I asked.
Sid sighed loudly. “I’m a therapist. I’m not supposed to tell you what to do. But if you want my honest opinion… I can’t believe you’re gonna stay with him, when he’s an *******.”
“Wow! I can’t believe you just called Bruce an a***hole,” I said. “But you’re right, he is an a**hole.”
“Actually, I didn’t call HIM an a**hole! I called YOU an a**hole. You heard me wrong. I said, ‘If you continue to stay with Bruce, then YOU are an a**hole.’”
“What? I’m not the a**hole! Bruce is the a**hole!”
“At this point, Karen, if you stay with Bruce knowing what you know – then YOU are the a**hole.”
“I’m the a**hole?” I repeated this word out loud – a word as opposite in content as a mantra could ever be – but alas, more powerful than any mantra I’d ever used.
This word “a**hole” became my wake up call!
Sid was right. If I stayed with someone who was so very toxic to my well being – then I became the A**hole to me – for allowing this soul-crushing, freedom-squelching relationship to continue!
“Listen, Karen,” Sid said, “at this point in therapy we are simply wasting time talking about Bruce – and how messed up he is. Quite frankly, you are only using stories about Bruce to distract yourself from your real issues – and the important inner work you have to do on yourself. It’s time we talk about the white elephant in the room: your wounds! There’s obviously something very wounded inside of you, that you feel the need to stay with Bruce – when he is so toxic.”
Although this story happened well over a decade ago, I think about it often. I particularly think about it whenever I’ve found myself starting to enter into what I intuit might be a toxic relationship –be it in love, business or friendship.
I feel if we’re not careful we can all find ourselves wasting a lot of precious tick-tocking time complaining about how badly someone is behaving towards us.
I believe we need to stop asking questions like:
“Why is this person treating me this way?”
“Why did this person do that crappy thing to me?”
“What is wrong with this person?”
“Are they an a**hole?”
“Are they a sociopath?”
“Are they a narcissist?”
“Isn’t this person simply just a terrible person?”
The really important questions we should be asking instead are:
“What did I miss in the vetting process that I allowed this person into my life?”
“What is wounded inside me that I choose/chose to stay with this person for as long as I do/did?”
“How can I grow from this experience – so it doesn’t repeat itself into a bad pattern?”
“Do I want to make this a story about how I was a victim – or how I became a victor?”
“Do I want to waste my time, thoughts and energy on toxicity or use it for a higher purpose?”
“Aren’t I wise and strong for how I moved on to be with better people and live better days?”
If you’re presently caught up in telling stories about the toxic misbehaviors of someone – the time has come to stop getting caught up in name-calling, contempt and blame.
The time has come to recognize you’re just distracting yourself with all the drama, chaos and static!
Yep, the more you stay with and/or complain about a toxic person, the more you’re merely delaying doing the important inner work you need to do – to heal your wounds, expand your limiting beliefs, and show yourself far more love and respect.
All of this time expended on them could be time spent on expanding you – growing who you are!
My lesson/your lesson: Don’t be an a**hole to yourself. Stop staying with (and/or complaining about) toxic people. Choose to focus your time, energy and conversation around people who inspire you, support you and help you to grow you into your happiest, strongest, wisest self.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
msm....you say that you wish you had read this at the beginning of your relationship with your AH.
Do you think that it would have made any difference? After all, it even took Sid a long time to even get you to "see".
It has been my disappointing experience that those who need to take this material to heart are exactly those who are the most resistant to it.
If you have any tips on how to get someone who needs to hear this...to take it to heart and act on it....please share that with me.
Thanks for the article, anyway......
dandylion
Do you think that it would have made any difference? After all, it even took Sid a long time to even get you to "see".
It has been my disappointing experience that those who need to take this material to heart are exactly those who are the most resistant to it.
If you have any tips on how to get someone who needs to hear this...to take it to heart and act on it....please share that with me.
Thanks for the article, anyway......
dandylion
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,699
Yeah, that was great to read!
Dandylion, I do believe *something would have registered with me if I had read this in the beginning of my relationship. I've struggled with the back and forth of who's crazy as much as I've struggled with "getting him sober" (lol) in 3.5 years. I may not have taken action right away after reading it, but it would have reinforced in me not to second guess myself so much, and in that sense would have made a lot of difference.
I think we all leave or not on our own timeline - and I like to think that these little tidbits build up the scales on my "why I NEED to leave" scale.
Dandylion, I do believe *something would have registered with me if I had read this in the beginning of my relationship. I've struggled with the back and forth of who's crazy as much as I've struggled with "getting him sober" (lol) in 3.5 years. I may not have taken action right away after reading it, but it would have reinforced in me not to second guess myself so much, and in that sense would have made a lot of difference.
I think we all leave or not on our own timeline - and I like to think that these little tidbits build up the scales on my "why I NEED to leave" scale.
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 164
I like this because the list of questions that we ask ourselves -- "is this person a narcissist? a sociopath? why is s/he cruel?" etc. are in themselves a sign that something is wrong. If we have to ask these questions, then (the article implies) that relationship is already toxic. It doesn't matter what the answer might be to any of those questions. If you have to ask, you already know. Get out.
At 19, after my first real breakup, I promised myself that if I ever again found myself asking myself, "should I break up with this person?" the answer should always be yes and I would never debate it or drag it out ever again. Because the question should never come up in a healthy, non-toxic relationship. (Over the years, unfortunately, I've questioned and ignored the insights of my 19 year old self so many times (she'd be so disappointed with me.)) Are there exceptions to this little "rule of thumb?" Of course. But usually I think that if these very serious questions come up, that tells you that something is very, very wrong.
Sometimes the answers we're seeking are smaller details within a huge, horrifying picture we're failing to step back and see for what it is.
At 19, after my first real breakup, I promised myself that if I ever again found myself asking myself, "should I break up with this person?" the answer should always be yes and I would never debate it or drag it out ever again. Because the question should never come up in a healthy, non-toxic relationship. (Over the years, unfortunately, I've questioned and ignored the insights of my 19 year old self so many times (she'd be so disappointed with me.)) Are there exceptions to this little "rule of thumb?" Of course. But usually I think that if these very serious questions come up, that tells you that something is very, very wrong.
Sometimes the answers we're seeking are smaller details within a huge, horrifying picture we're failing to step back and see for what it is.
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 741
I was working on some "letting go" writing this morning and this post really hit home. Time to stop concentrating on labeling the XAH's behaviors or dysfunctions and start working on myself. Thanks so much for posting this thread!
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 40
This is a great article. Thank you so much for sharing.
As for reading it in the beginning of a relationship, the person in the article said she saw signs right after they started dating. In my own case, the signs of anger and "toxicity" didn't show up for several years.....and they were few and far between. Thirty years and two kids later, they are here and deeply entrenched. So in my case reading it before hand wouldn't have made a difference. But as every new bad behavior occurs, I'm ready to tell someone and vent....but it's nearly a daily occurrence now. Who wants to listen? So this really spoke to me:
Thank you msm, for this share.
And dandylion the way I read this, msm isn't the subject of the story. SHE wasn't the one who was seeing Sid. She came across the article and shared it for us. I agree with you that those who need it take it to heart have a hard time acting on it. Myself included. For me personally, after years of neglecting my health and focusing on everyone else (codie anyone?) I'm getting myself healthy first while I'm under his benefits. For many years I thought he acted the way he did because I was sick with Crohn's disease, fibromyalgia, had major cervical spine surgery, had hysterectomy etc. He was always going places doing what he wanted and I always stayed home because I wasn't up to going....
I'm new to Al-Anon and they say don't make major decisions for six months as you learn thee program and get stronger in recovery. I pray to my HP daily on what to do and how to leave if that is His will.
I yearn for a small place of my own with serenity, but at the moment I can't see how that is financially possible for me. All I can do is take things one day at a time, get myself healthy -- physically AND emotionally, and work the program. I pray that God gives me the strength to do whatever He asks me to do.
As for reading it in the beginning of a relationship, the person in the article said she saw signs right after they started dating. In my own case, the signs of anger and "toxicity" didn't show up for several years.....and they were few and far between. Thirty years and two kids later, they are here and deeply entrenched. So in my case reading it before hand wouldn't have made a difference. But as every new bad behavior occurs, I'm ready to tell someone and vent....but it's nearly a daily occurrence now. Who wants to listen? So this really spoke to me:
"Yep, the more you stay with and/or complain about a toxic person, the more you’re merely delaying doing the important inner work you need to do – to heal your wounds, expand your limiting beliefs, and show yourself far more love and respect."
Wow...... he got angry with me even while typing this story because when answering a question he asked, my voice trailed off and he didn't hear what I said. Really? How long am I going to put up with this??Thank you msm, for this share.
And dandylion the way I read this, msm isn't the subject of the story. SHE wasn't the one who was seeing Sid. She came across the article and shared it for us. I agree with you that those who need it take it to heart have a hard time acting on it. Myself included. For me personally, after years of neglecting my health and focusing on everyone else (codie anyone?) I'm getting myself healthy first while I'm under his benefits. For many years I thought he acted the way he did because I was sick with Crohn's disease, fibromyalgia, had major cervical spine surgery, had hysterectomy etc. He was always going places doing what he wanted and I always stayed home because I wasn't up to going....
I'm new to Al-Anon and they say don't make major decisions for six months as you learn thee program and get stronger in recovery. I pray to my HP daily on what to do and how to leave if that is His will.
I yearn for a small place of my own with serenity, but at the moment I can't see how that is financially possible for me. All I can do is take things one day at a time, get myself healthy -- physically AND emotionally, and work the program. I pray that God gives me the strength to do whatever He asks me to do.
Last edited by allinon; 07-25-2014 at 05:43 AM. Reason: clarification
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brink of Sanity, BC
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The author is Karen Salmansohn. Follow her on facebook or at notsalmon.com. Lots of great articles which may be of interest to others on this board.
The lesson of not being an a--hole to myself was a longtime coming but the future looks so much better now. I have regained respect for myself and trust my intuition again for the first time in many years.
The lesson of not being an a--hole to myself was a longtime coming but the future looks so much better now. I have regained respect for myself and trust my intuition again for the first time in many years.
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Brink of Sanity, BC
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by firebolt 
Yeah, that was great to read!
Dandylion, I do believe *something would have registered with me if I had read this in the beginning of my relationship. I've struggled with the back and forth of who's crazy as much as I've struggled with "getting him sober" (lol) in 3.5 years. I may not have taken action right away after reading it, but it would have reinforced in me not to second guess myself so much, and in that sense would have made a lot of difference.
I think we all leave or not on our own timeline - and I like to think that these little tidbits build up the scales on my "why I NEED to leave" scale.
Dandylion, I do believe *something would have registered with me if I had read this in the beginning of my relationship. I've struggled with the back and forth of who's crazy as much as I've struggled with "getting him sober" (lol) in 3.5 years. I may not have taken action right away after reading it, but it would have reinforced in me not to second guess myself so much, and in that sense would have made a lot of difference.
I think we all leave or not on our own timeline - and I like to think that these little tidbits build up the scales on my "why I NEED to leave" scale.
Hoping one day I will have the strength to move forward and make the changes need for my sanity. One choice at a time. Right?
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: New York City, NY
Posts: 45
Thank you for this post, MSM! So familiar for me, too. The crazy accusations out of nowhere, having no social life as they think you are always "up to something". I once asked for his set of keys back to give to my sister who was visiting me in NYC and he didn't speak to me for several days! So crazy. We are on 3 weeks of not speaking because I went out for a glass of wine alone. Thank you!
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Location: United Kingdom
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Thank you for posting this. I don't think if I had read this before my exAH left me it would have made any difference. It's only now that I read it can I see that I am still focused on him and need to change the focus onto me.
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