Is this what it's like?
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Originally Posted by TonightTonight 
So. I feel like I have a decision to make. I think about it everyday, try not to so I don't feel more insane/tired/frustrated/etc. But I do 
I definitely felt this way when RAH relapsed. We are now near two years at sobriety and the only way I was able to get a handle on it was to go to Al Anon and work the steps.
Now I find myself back in the same situation with an addict business partner (literally had no idea) that makes RAH relapse seem like stubbing my toe.
Thankfully, I do have some experience under my belt now. The insanity and frustration still rear their ugly head with my business partner. With addiction things are as they appear and things are not as they appear, so we sit and swirl it around in our heads trying to make sense of behaviors that make no sense - applying logic and rational thinking where there is none. It doesn't compute.
More is always revealed. Some of the best advice I got was that I did not have to make a decision today, tomorrow or next month. Neither do you. I was told to work on myself and stop focusing on my A. I did. I figured out that arguing with him was a waste of time so I stopped. I figured out that I could have some level of peace in my home and a bigger level of peace in my head by making myself a priority rather than expending energy on an A that was in denial.
I also had forgotten that I had choices. it sounds so weird but I see others that look at their situation the same way. I am not sure why I fell into that thinking. It was very depressing - like I had gotten a life sentence and this was my life forever - lots of rationalizations as to why I couldn't do anything to change it like he won't leave, he will make my life hell, If I leave he will die, and better just to stay than upset the apple cart. NOT
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Join Date: Jun 2014
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What DesertEyes said. 
My homegroup has a few old-timer women who stayed in their marriage, a few women w/ recovering husbands, a couple with husbands in relapse, one who recently divorced him. I'm among 3 regular male attendees, one is an older double-winner, myself and a newbie but I don't know his story yet.
So its a pretty good mix. I started in Feb 2014 fresh out of the crisis with RAW and one of the comforts I felt right away was the old-timers who shared about how things can get better. They chose to stay with their active alcoholics, one got into something like a recovery the other not but they ladies are still there because alanon helped them so much.
When I first started I was deliberating about about how long I would be waiting for her to recover, making a list of boundaries etc. Note how much of that is still focussed on her... I guess I started getting w/ the program- I do have one boundary at the moment; no active alcoholism in the house - period - I would hope she would have the same one if our situations were reversed. (8yr old daughter in the house) And if theres a big relapse I'd ask her to leave, and would expect the same in the reverse case, a return being contingent on evidence of recovery. Its kind of scary having such a determination- its been broached in our couples therapy... sometimes her or my codependency turns it into an "issue".
Our sexlife is at pretty much a complete halt at this point which is a real drag.. my take on it is the emotional situation for her is tangled up, the booze being used to medicate and its going to take a while to work through that. If she has mixed emotions about us in general I theorize that sex just amplifies the discomfort so its not something she's really inclined to do... though I concede that the girlbrain is mysterious so wtf do I know...
From a practical standpoint I think there is no relationship "to go back to" emotionally or physically, for my part it seems that we're working on a new one.
But you know a just few months ago I had no hope at all
lolz, I do hope the new one has a sexlife...
My homegroup has a few old-timer women who stayed in their marriage, a few women w/ recovering husbands, a couple with husbands in relapse, one who recently divorced him. I'm among 3 regular male attendees, one is an older double-winner, myself and a newbie but I don't know his story yet.
So its a pretty good mix. I started in Feb 2014 fresh out of the crisis with RAW and one of the comforts I felt right away was the old-timers who shared about how things can get better. They chose to stay with their active alcoholics, one got into something like a recovery the other not but they ladies are still there because alanon helped them so much.
When I first started I was deliberating about about how long I would be waiting for her to recover, making a list of boundaries etc. Note how much of that is still focussed on her... I guess I started getting w/ the program- I do have one boundary at the moment; no active alcoholism in the house - period - I would hope she would have the same one if our situations were reversed. (8yr old daughter in the house) And if theres a big relapse I'd ask her to leave, and would expect the same in the reverse case, a return being contingent on evidence of recovery. Its kind of scary having such a determination- its been broached in our couples therapy... sometimes her or my codependency turns it into an "issue".
Our sexlife is at pretty much a complete halt at this point which is a real drag.. my take on it is the emotional situation for her is tangled up, the booze being used to medicate and its going to take a while to work through that. If she has mixed emotions about us in general I theorize that sex just amplifies the discomfort so its not something she's really inclined to do... though I concede that the girlbrain is mysterious so wtf do I know...
From a practical standpoint I think there is no relationship "to go back to" emotionally or physically, for my part it seems that we're working on a new one.
But you know a just few months ago I had no hope at all
lolz, I do hope the new one has a sexlife...
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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You’ve been given a lot of great advice and I hope that you realize that you aren’t alone. Wanting love, intimacy, and to feel cherished is not unrealistic. I have two friends that wound up getting divorced because they found themselves in loveless marriages that they ultimately could not tolerate and wanted more. As far as I’m aware alcohol didn’t play into the picture. From the little I’ve read of your post you’re dealing with two things, the alcohol (not clear if he’s even acknowledged he has a problem), and the whole sex/intimacy issue.
I’m not sure that what I’m going to say is going to be very helpful but just wanted to give my two (or three) cents from “the other side” of the fence. I am Schnappi’s AW (alcoholic in recovery wife) with no drive. My sobriety date is 2/8/14. Beyond standard recovery stuff (treatment, trying to find an AA meeting I feel at home with) I’ve done a lot of reading of these forums and I’ve listened to a number of audiobooks written by other alcoholics to try and get a better understanding of where other people are coming from.
First I would say that until/unless your husband owns up to an alcohol problem you’re in a challenging spot. Hubbie and I were in therapy for a couple of years due to intimacy issues and basically got nowhere, admittedly my fault, until a crisis point came and I had to acknowledge and deal with the fact I had an alcohol problem. I don’t think we made much true headway if any in therapy while I was drinking.
If you have not already done so, your husband needs to know exactly how you’re feeling. Getting an alcoholic to acknowledge they have a problem is no small feat but IMHO you at least need to make it clear how you feel. Also the fact that you are unhappy with the sex life and intimacy he needs to know. Maybe you’ve made both of these points crystal clear and he’s not acknowledging or dealing with them. If that is the case, I do apologize. While in group counseling though I got called out on venting my own frustrations in our relationship to a group but not my husband himself. I saw this with a number of other people as well in group. They were unhappy about various things but not willing to tell their partner-not healthy and not likely to get anyone anywhere.
My take on the intimacy thing is complicated since obviously reading hubbies post (Schnappi) its still a very huge issue for us. What is going on with your hubbie would certainly be a giant guessing game. Either he actually has a libido problem (possible and alcohol is exacerbating the problem) or there could be a number of other emotional issues in play though honestly I’d guess on libido but just a wild guess. For us its been a process of elimination and not there yet. In the interest of privacy I’ll be vague here but we dealt with a number of crisis points a number of years ago that in some respects I think are possible affecting me emotionally that I’ve never truly gotten over that have played into my drive issues. A cancer diagnosis and two surgeries in the past year and a half have not helped the situation in any way. I may have flat out libido issues as well. I’m at 5.5 months sober so if alcohol was in play I’d think they would have dissipated by now. I have calls into two therapists right now with to make an appointment with the intent of really trying to focus on untangling that web. My husband deserves a passionate wife and so do you with your husband. For what its worth I actually do feel very badly about the grief I’ve put him through. I have some walls in place though that I myself don’t understand. Don’t know about your hubbie just wanted to give you a perspective from “the other side.”
If your hubbie truly cares about your feelings and realizes that you cannot go on with the current state of affairs forever then he will take action. He’ll go to therapy with you, admit his problems and do something or he will deny everything. In the end if he chooses to do nothing you have a lot of things to consider for your future. Alanon will be wonderful for you but I also think some counseling would be helpful as well to help you work through your own feelings and decide where you want to go.
This is terribly long-winded I’m afraid but in all the reading I’ve done and talking with other alcoholics it seems like there are two camps. Some of us that are simply clueless about the harm of our actions and others. There are others that don’t care enough to give up the booze or change. There are a good number of alcoholics that do indeed care far more about their addiction than other people. Yet I have also met a good number of people like myself that were simply clueless until a crisis occurred to force us to deal with our problems. I don’t know where your hubbie fits into the equation.
I wish you best of luck, you do deserve more as do all people that are harmed by other people’s bad behavior.
Peace
I’m not sure that what I’m going to say is going to be very helpful but just wanted to give my two (or three) cents from “the other side” of the fence. I am Schnappi’s AW (alcoholic in recovery wife) with no drive. My sobriety date is 2/8/14. Beyond standard recovery stuff (treatment, trying to find an AA meeting I feel at home with) I’ve done a lot of reading of these forums and I’ve listened to a number of audiobooks written by other alcoholics to try and get a better understanding of where other people are coming from.
First I would say that until/unless your husband owns up to an alcohol problem you’re in a challenging spot. Hubbie and I were in therapy for a couple of years due to intimacy issues and basically got nowhere, admittedly my fault, until a crisis point came and I had to acknowledge and deal with the fact I had an alcohol problem. I don’t think we made much true headway if any in therapy while I was drinking.
If you have not already done so, your husband needs to know exactly how you’re feeling. Getting an alcoholic to acknowledge they have a problem is no small feat but IMHO you at least need to make it clear how you feel. Also the fact that you are unhappy with the sex life and intimacy he needs to know. Maybe you’ve made both of these points crystal clear and he’s not acknowledging or dealing with them. If that is the case, I do apologize. While in group counseling though I got called out on venting my own frustrations in our relationship to a group but not my husband himself. I saw this with a number of other people as well in group. They were unhappy about various things but not willing to tell their partner-not healthy and not likely to get anyone anywhere.
My take on the intimacy thing is complicated since obviously reading hubbies post (Schnappi) its still a very huge issue for us. What is going on with your hubbie would certainly be a giant guessing game. Either he actually has a libido problem (possible and alcohol is exacerbating the problem) or there could be a number of other emotional issues in play though honestly I’d guess on libido but just a wild guess. For us its been a process of elimination and not there yet. In the interest of privacy I’ll be vague here but we dealt with a number of crisis points a number of years ago that in some respects I think are possible affecting me emotionally that I’ve never truly gotten over that have played into my drive issues. A cancer diagnosis and two surgeries in the past year and a half have not helped the situation in any way. I may have flat out libido issues as well. I’m at 5.5 months sober so if alcohol was in play I’d think they would have dissipated by now. I have calls into two therapists right now with to make an appointment with the intent of really trying to focus on untangling that web. My husband deserves a passionate wife and so do you with your husband. For what its worth I actually do feel very badly about the grief I’ve put him through. I have some walls in place though that I myself don’t understand. Don’t know about your hubbie just wanted to give you a perspective from “the other side.”
If your hubbie truly cares about your feelings and realizes that you cannot go on with the current state of affairs forever then he will take action. He’ll go to therapy with you, admit his problems and do something or he will deny everything. In the end if he chooses to do nothing you have a lot of things to consider for your future. Alanon will be wonderful for you but I also think some counseling would be helpful as well to help you work through your own feelings and decide where you want to go.
This is terribly long-winded I’m afraid but in all the reading I’ve done and talking with other alcoholics it seems like there are two camps. Some of us that are simply clueless about the harm of our actions and others. There are others that don’t care enough to give up the booze or change. There are a good number of alcoholics that do indeed care far more about their addiction than other people. Yet I have also met a good number of people like myself that were simply clueless until a crisis occurred to force us to deal with our problems. I don’t know where your hubbie fits into the equation.
I wish you best of luck, you do deserve more as do all people that are harmed by other people’s bad behavior.
Peace
Last edited by cookiesncream; 07-20-2014 at 07:38 PM. Reason: punctuation
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Okay, so I think I'm getting a hang of this inner quote thingamagig. My apologies for the multi-responses! If I could figure out how to quote others in the same message I would do it. Sorry!
Yes...there are so many ways I've reached out and tried to connect with AH, and looking back it wasn't a connecting with as much as it was a complete giving without much in return. I also feel used, and the times he has threatened divorce in arguments (that's another post altogether!) combined with the distance and lack of interest in me, I for sure feel discarded.
There are plenty of meetings in my neck of the woods. I try to frequent as many as I can, maybe I need to chat more afterwards and meet new people. Posting here really has helped!
Huh. This is how it feels, but I didn't realize it until now. It's like I thought we were walking side by side but we just started drifting ever so slowly down paths that stretched away from one another. We lost our house several years ago and that was our major "us against the world" moment - before that there had been plenty of drama in the relationship, but it seemed like the thing that would help us. Instead it was just a part of the spiral down.
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
For me it wasn't just the hurt, the jealousy, the rejection. I felt used, discarded and betrayed.
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
...That was my experience too, with my first few meetings. They taught me all kinds of wonderful new skills and gave me a new awareness, but I lacked the "connection" with other people in my same circumstances. As others have suggested, I shopped around for other meetings.
Originally Posted by DesertEyes
Somewhere in the darkness of her addiction I lost track of _me_ and where I fit with this huge, crazy world. We had stopped being "us against the world" and became "save yourself"... except I never got the memo.
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Originally Posted by redatlanta
With addiction things are as they appear and things are not as they appear, so we sit and swirl it around in our heads trying to make sense of behaviors that make no sense - applying logic and rational thinking where there is none. It doesn't compute.
Originally Posted by redatlanta
...It was very depressing - like I had gotten a life sentence and this was my life forever - lots of rationalizations as to why I couldn't do anything to change it like he won't leave, he will make my life hell, If I leave he will die, and better just to stay than upset the apple cart. NOT
There's no fear on my part that he'll die if I leave, none at all. In fact, I think I resent the hell out of knowing that he would be perfectly, absolutely fine. He will have no problem finding someone else and he will enjoy the rest of his life drinking without consequences. Maybe he'll even be really happy. At least - that's the nightmare/fantasy in my head I've created.
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schnappi99 and cookiesandcream:
Wow. When I read both of your posts you could have picked my jaw off the floor. Thank you so much for both reaching out to me! How amazing that you are both on this board together. I appreciate your perspectives so much; Schnappi99 for your view of what it's like in our shoes and cookiesandcream, for your thoughts from "the other side."
Somewhere in my responses here I think I mentioned that AH has not really admitted to having a problem - it's something he's gone back and forth on. Now, back in the day, a couple years before Al Anon, he started telling me, randomly, that he thought he was going to stop drinking. And I just didn't get it, really, I had no idea what I was dealing with (even though his parents are alcoholics and other members of his family). After Al Anon and as time went on, he slowly started progressing into hardcore denial of having any problem. I did all the codie things of trying to "convince" him after finding bottles in his car, under furniture, other weirder hiding places, but to no avail.
So now, I am terrified of bringing up his drinking because I feel completely at a loss as to how to even discuss it with him without going down the path of trying to convince him he has a problem, and how to deal with his responses (usually a lot of deflection, the typical stuff, but also anger and a crazy demeanor).
As for counseling, we've been together and he's been on his own. The first time didn't prove helpful but the second time, when he went on his own, there was a noticeable change, and he even said he was glad he had been going. Neither time did he stop drinking - when the first counselor asked if it was a problem, we both said no (again this was before my al anon revelation). The second time I'm not sure as he was going on his own. In both cases he kept drinking but at least he seemed to have better communication with me.
You're right...I guess I'm too afraid to put myself out there and make a declaration/give an ultimatum until I'm completely ready to hold to it. Al Anon has been helping in the meantime. Thanks so much for your reply!
Wow. When I read both of your posts you could have picked my jaw off the floor. Thank you so much for both reaching out to me! How amazing that you are both on this board together. I appreciate your perspectives so much; Schnappi99 for your view of what it's like in our shoes and cookiesandcream, for your thoughts from "the other side."
Somewhere in my responses here I think I mentioned that AH has not really admitted to having a problem - it's something he's gone back and forth on. Now, back in the day, a couple years before Al Anon, he started telling me, randomly, that he thought he was going to stop drinking. And I just didn't get it, really, I had no idea what I was dealing with (even though his parents are alcoholics and other members of his family). After Al Anon and as time went on, he slowly started progressing into hardcore denial of having any problem. I did all the codie things of trying to "convince" him after finding bottles in his car, under furniture, other weirder hiding places, but to no avail.
So now, I am terrified of bringing up his drinking because I feel completely at a loss as to how to even discuss it with him without going down the path of trying to convince him he has a problem, and how to deal with his responses (usually a lot of deflection, the typical stuff, but also anger and a crazy demeanor).
As for counseling, we've been together and he's been on his own. The first time didn't prove helpful but the second time, when he went on his own, there was a noticeable change, and he even said he was glad he had been going. Neither time did he stop drinking - when the first counselor asked if it was a problem, we both said no (again this was before my al anon revelation). The second time I'm not sure as he was going on his own. In both cases he kept drinking but at least he seemed to have better communication with me.
Originally Posted by cookiesncream
If your hubbie truly cares about your feelings and realizes that you cannot go on with the current state of affairs forever then he will take action. He’ll go to therapy with you, admit his problems and do something or he will deny everything. In the end if he chooses to do nothing you have a lot of things to consider for your future. Alanon will be wonderful for you but I also think some counseling would be helpful as well to help you work through your own feelings and decide where you want to go.
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Update - discussion!
Well, that was interesting.
The other night after responding here, I spoke to AH briefly and went to take a shower. When I got in the bathroom, I broke down and started crying, and AH was at the door knocking shortly thereafter. We started talking through the door about what to do for dinner, and I realized he hadn't heard me crying, so I tried to compose myself, wipe my face and opened the door when I felt I looked fine. He noticed immediately, asked me what was wrong, and when I tried to make an excuse he said "You're going to lie to my face?"
I told him I'd already told him last week, the day he was getting ready to leave for work travel (Not great timing I know, I had broken down and didn't mean to). I should add, last week when I talked he stood there emotionless while I cried, telling me he was affectionate, this didn't make sense, then he eventually gathered his things to leave, put on his sunglasses while I was talking (!) and proceeded to pretend that nothing had happened, joked that he was nervous about the flight, "Is that all the kiss I get?" as I pecked him goodbye.
ANYWAY. This time when I told him, he firstly did not remember what I had told him last week, and thought it was something else. Then he had a few things to say:
"Don't take it personally. It has nothing to do with you - if it's something with me then it has nothing to do with you."
"No, it's not you at all. You look great, you really do."
"I just don't think of it (sex, to initiate). Not even just for me, to, you know. (and something about how it used to be every other day for him)."
"I don't know - maybe something's wrong with me."
"Is it really that big of a deal?"
"I'll make more of an effort..."
At the end he gave me a hug.
I did my best to get my point across that it's not just about sex. He doesn't reach out to me, hug me, touch me etc. (He is so freely loving to the pets, grr!). Perhaps stupidly and naively, I even expressed my concerns that he is somehow getting that need met in other ways, and he replied that no, that's not happening, that I don't have to worry about that.
Fast forward to last night - he had quite a bit to drink and was his usual, negative self. He did reach out for me on the couch, which was nice. Then he mentioned how his upcoming trip for work will have him gone for a week. "What will you do while I'm gone for a whole week?" I said "I don't know, I'll have to find something." "Or someone" he said. I brushed that off. Then, referring to something I'd said earlier about freshly cleaned sheets being a great sleeping aid, he said "Yeah, fresh penis? That'll help you sleep better."
He had been drinking, I know. But the fact that he joked about that after me telling him MY concerns, oh man. My head was spinning.
Finally, when we went to bed quite late, he woke up or was still sleeping and started groping me saying "Oh sometimes I just wanna..." (sometimes he does this, falls asleep and wakes up or is still half-asleep and starts up). Then fell back asleep. Then we were both awake and one thing lead to another. Ta da. We did it. Smh. I don't know what to say about it, really.
Thanks everyone again for your replies. It's so great to have this resource and the wisdom from your collective experiences.
Time to get my butt in gear for myself today...
The other night after responding here, I spoke to AH briefly and went to take a shower. When I got in the bathroom, I broke down and started crying, and AH was at the door knocking shortly thereafter. We started talking through the door about what to do for dinner, and I realized he hadn't heard me crying, so I tried to compose myself, wipe my face and opened the door when I felt I looked fine. He noticed immediately, asked me what was wrong, and when I tried to make an excuse he said "You're going to lie to my face?"
I told him I'd already told him last week, the day he was getting ready to leave for work travel (Not great timing I know, I had broken down and didn't mean to). I should add, last week when I talked he stood there emotionless while I cried, telling me he was affectionate, this didn't make sense, then he eventually gathered his things to leave, put on his sunglasses while I was talking (!) and proceeded to pretend that nothing had happened, joked that he was nervous about the flight, "Is that all the kiss I get?" as I pecked him goodbye.
ANYWAY. This time when I told him, he firstly did not remember what I had told him last week, and thought it was something else. Then he had a few things to say:
"Don't take it personally. It has nothing to do with you - if it's something with me then it has nothing to do with you."
"No, it's not you at all. You look great, you really do."
"I just don't think of it (sex, to initiate). Not even just for me, to, you know. (and something about how it used to be every other day for him)."
"I don't know - maybe something's wrong with me."
"Is it really that big of a deal?"
"I'll make more of an effort..."
At the end he gave me a hug.
I did my best to get my point across that it's not just about sex. He doesn't reach out to me, hug me, touch me etc. (He is so freely loving to the pets, grr!). Perhaps stupidly and naively, I even expressed my concerns that he is somehow getting that need met in other ways, and he replied that no, that's not happening, that I don't have to worry about that.
Fast forward to last night - he had quite a bit to drink and was his usual, negative self. He did reach out for me on the couch, which was nice. Then he mentioned how his upcoming trip for work will have him gone for a week. "What will you do while I'm gone for a whole week?" I said "I don't know, I'll have to find something." "Or someone" he said. I brushed that off. Then, referring to something I'd said earlier about freshly cleaned sheets being a great sleeping aid, he said "Yeah, fresh penis? That'll help you sleep better."
He had been drinking, I know. But the fact that he joked about that after me telling him MY concerns, oh man. My head was spinning.
Finally, when we went to bed quite late, he woke up or was still sleeping and started groping me saying "Oh sometimes I just wanna..." (sometimes he does this, falls asleep and wakes up or is still half-asleep and starts up). Then fell back asleep. Then we were both awake and one thing lead to another. Ta da. We did it. Smh. I don't know what to say about it, really.
Thanks everyone again for your replies. It's so great to have this resource and the wisdom from your collective experiences.
Time to get my butt in gear for myself today...
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I can only say that my XAH accused me of having affairs which never ever happened. Come to find out, he's the creep having the affairs. Just b/c his mind works in that way does not mean mine does.
You deserve to be loved, not talked to like a prostute, just saying. Again, what are you getting out of this relationship today, not what once was?
You deserve to be loved, not talked to like a prostute, just saying. Again, what are you getting out of this relationship today, not what once was?
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"Hmm. I'd like to feel important, wanted, precious, special. I want love, affection, intimacy, trust, equality, respect, admiration - is that too much to ask? "
TT- no that is not too much to ask for in a relationship. And its something I haven't had in a long time. I'm working on giving myself those things. It's hard to rely on someone else who has no clue.
peace
TT- no that is not too much to ask for in a relationship. And its something I haven't had in a long time. I'm working on giving myself those things. It's hard to rely on someone else who has no clue.
peace
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Originally Posted by mauihope
"Hmm. I'd like to feel important, wanted, precious, special. I want love, affection, intimacy, trust, equality, respect, admiration - is that too much to ask? "
TT- no that is not too much to ask for in a relationship. And its something I haven't had in a long time. I'm working on giving myself those things. It's hard to rely on someone else who has no clue.
peace
TT- no that is not too much to ask for in a relationship. And its something I haven't had in a long time. I'm working on giving myself those things. It's hard to rely on someone else who has no clue.
peace
From the guy standpoint, I'd make much the same list. Maybe our "previous" marriage was amateur-hour and there was enough of the items around enough of the time for it not to be an issue for me (not speaking for her here)- and when the emotional and physical wall started coming down back in the 2008/9 timeframe being cut off from a lot of those things and the situation clearly worsening I amped up my codie response; "pull" harder at the relationship oars w/ mounting frustration. Alanon has taught me a lot stuff- detaching and self-care being early revelations.. working on that list by me for me is my goal. Thats not to say RAW provides none of them more that I'm responsible for getting my warm-fuzzy needs met.
For my part I don't think RAH is clueless, I tend to think each of us has our respective issues distorting the situation. Its funny how delicate our marriage feels compared to the meeting "feel"- I guess thats not unexpected since we're trying to put things back together. Both of us were pretty much ready to quit back in Jan/Feb.
Tell you what though keeping free of the codie voice is double-tough, particularly wrt judgement and what-ifs.
@TT - I wouldn't read too much into the bedroom action, RAW and I had a few scenes back in fall 2013 before things really stopped.... enough content to check off the "have sex" box and not much else.. but really things were pretty much like that for years before.
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Posts: 273
I apologize in advance here because I don't want to go hijacking your thread. IMHO Alanon will be very helpful but I also think some individual counseling would be in order to figure out what you want and if he does not choose to meet your needs what you are going to do. Not easy.
Your AH sounds like he was completely clueless about your issues and kind of brushed them off. Callous and mean. The problem with alcohol is that until an addict starts facing some pretty severe consequences for their behavior they are likely to be in the denial stage for quite awhile, I certainly was. At this point it doesn't seem that he has faced any major consequences. Every alcoholic that maintains sobriety for any length of time seems to have a "tipping point" that forces them to take action. Many as you've read on these forums face the potential loss of families. As long as he can continue to drink and get away with it and pacify you enough so that you don't take some serious "line in the sand" actions he'll probobly continue his drinking. Therapy for us didn't make much headway as long as the next argument we had I would still go and "self medicate," apologize and then repeat the cycle. Some serious action which you need to be ready to take, will need to be taken is my guess if he is going to "see the light." There are always risks to that approach but if you're miserable enough you may in time be ready to take them. I'm hoping that as you work through your issues you'll figure that out.
I'd like to "think" I'm not clueless. I'm very aware of hubbies frustrations with our intimacy issues and there is not one day that i don't feel like a rotten wife. I genuinely care however and given a choice of booze or losing my marriage, our daughter I'll pick sobriety any day. Unfortunately it did take a crisis point where I had to face the music. After reading this weekend's posts of yours it was certainly helpful that a therapist called me back that specializes in sexual dysfunction and I certainly hope that someday we will be able to report back on posts like yours and say "there IS hope" if BOTH partners are properly motivated. I don't unfortunately think you're going to make a whole lot of headway until/unless your hubbie has to face the drinking problem as a real issue and not just an annoyance.
I do feel badly for you for finding all the booze in weird places and questioning what the heck is going on. We alcoholics seem to think that we are so clever with hiding (which most of us have done) and don't think our significant others are catching onto it.
Again best of luck to you. Thanks for listening to me. I'm not proud of the anguish you go through because of our problems.
Peace,
Your AH sounds like he was completely clueless about your issues and kind of brushed them off. Callous and mean. The problem with alcohol is that until an addict starts facing some pretty severe consequences for their behavior they are likely to be in the denial stage for quite awhile, I certainly was. At this point it doesn't seem that he has faced any major consequences. Every alcoholic that maintains sobriety for any length of time seems to have a "tipping point" that forces them to take action. Many as you've read on these forums face the potential loss of families. As long as he can continue to drink and get away with it and pacify you enough so that you don't take some serious "line in the sand" actions he'll probobly continue his drinking. Therapy for us didn't make much headway as long as the next argument we had I would still go and "self medicate," apologize and then repeat the cycle. Some serious action which you need to be ready to take, will need to be taken is my guess if he is going to "see the light." There are always risks to that approach but if you're miserable enough you may in time be ready to take them. I'm hoping that as you work through your issues you'll figure that out.
I'd like to "think" I'm not clueless. I'm very aware of hubbies frustrations with our intimacy issues and there is not one day that i don't feel like a rotten wife. I genuinely care however and given a choice of booze or losing my marriage, our daughter I'll pick sobriety any day. Unfortunately it did take a crisis point where I had to face the music. After reading this weekend's posts of yours it was certainly helpful that a therapist called me back that specializes in sexual dysfunction and I certainly hope that someday we will be able to report back on posts like yours and say "there IS hope" if BOTH partners are properly motivated. I don't unfortunately think you're going to make a whole lot of headway until/unless your hubbie has to face the drinking problem as a real issue and not just an annoyance.
I do feel badly for you for finding all the booze in weird places and questioning what the heck is going on. We alcoholics seem to think that we are so clever with hiding (which most of us have done) and don't think our significant others are catching onto it.
Again best of luck to you. Thanks for listening to me. I'm not proud of the anguish you go through because of our problems.
Peace,
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: Wherever we go, there we are.
Posts: 108
Hopeful - I'm embarrassed to say there's "jokes" from both of us about affairs, but I will say that I started it, even before I realized AH may be an alcoholic, the distance got to me and out of insecurity/suspicion/fear I started saying little comments. It's SO embarrassing to admit this, but I did. And I still do :o/ But anyway. Being talked to like that...yeah.
Schnappi - uh yes I totally admit that I have my own issues that are distorting the situation. I have had a really hard time detaching lately as I see AH's anger and misery as if I am to blame (maybe if I went back to doing all the nice things I used to do for him, even though they're kind of enabling, he'd be nicer to me, etc.). Maybe that's my denial talking. In short my codie ways can take over, and my insecurities, and it's one big circle.
Cookiesandcream - No worries! There has been no hijacking. Honestly, I've been reading others' threads here and feel my concern is so silly amongst the others here. It's been a tough time in Al Anon and in general as it's weird for me to call him AH when well, I can't be 100%, only he can? I don't know if that makes any sense. So that trips me up a lot. It doesn't matter how many bottles I find, or how many times he leaves after an argument to go get something to drink (even though I'm not supposed to know that's what he's doing). Someone told me once that it wasn't fair to blame the violence on the alcoholism, because not all alcoholics are violent/abusive. So I started to think that about other things, and soon enough I was questioning everything. "Is *this* because of the disease?" etc.
Anyhoo. Thank you so much again
Schnappi - uh yes I totally admit that I have my own issues that are distorting the situation. I have had a really hard time detaching lately as I see AH's anger and misery as if I am to blame (maybe if I went back to doing all the nice things I used to do for him, even though they're kind of enabling, he'd be nicer to me, etc.). Maybe that's my denial talking. In short my codie ways can take over, and my insecurities, and it's one big circle.
Cookiesandcream - No worries! There has been no hijacking. Honestly, I've been reading others' threads here and feel my concern is so silly amongst the others here. It's been a tough time in Al Anon and in general as it's weird for me to call him AH when well, I can't be 100%, only he can? I don't know if that makes any sense. So that trips me up a lot. It doesn't matter how many bottles I find, or how many times he leaves after an argument to go get something to drink (even though I'm not supposed to know that's what he's doing). Someone told me once that it wasn't fair to blame the violence on the alcoholism, because not all alcoholics are violent/abusive. So I started to think that about other things, and soon enough I was questioning everything. "Is *this* because of the disease?" etc.
Anyhoo. Thank you so much again
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: MD
Posts: 658
I've been working my my alanon 4th step- the Blueprint book. I'm in the self-worth section, which asks how we protect ourselves from physical,emotional,verbal abuse. Clearly I've given and received it in various ways at various times. It seems blaming alcoholism for the abuse is kind of getting the abuser off the hook- codies are good at doing that even while they they themselves indulge it in consciously or not. I've done that too. The abuser is a person and responsible for their actions, no matter if the alcohol got them to the state where they're doing it or not- there are reasons but not excuses.
As a question of abuse or no I would not call it silly in the least... its fundamentally about boundaries. I find I do owe C&C further amends on that front.. my abuse has been verbal and emotional.. mostly unconscious but when things have been bad between us, intentional. In a real way I have been episodically acting more or less crazed for a long time, I can trace it back to teenagerhood.
So I'd say its important to get yourself straight.. perhaps alanon or something else.. else the "weaponized" affection is likely to worsen.
As a question of abuse or no I would not call it silly in the least... its fundamentally about boundaries. I find I do owe C&C further amends on that front.. my abuse has been verbal and emotional.. mostly unconscious but when things have been bad between us, intentional. In a real way I have been episodically acting more or less crazed for a long time, I can trace it back to teenagerhood.
So I'd say its important to get yourself straight.. perhaps alanon or something else.. else the "weaponized" affection is likely to worsen.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Since you're powerless over your husband, his drinking, words and actions, you must decide if this is what you want for yourself. If you're ok with it, stay; if not, then start thinking about what changes you're going to make. "Accept the things I cannot change, change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference."
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Originally Posted by TonightTonight
....I've been reading others' threads here and feel my concern is so silly amongst the others here. ...
It's not the details of our lives that brings us together here on SR, or in meetings, or elsewhere in real life. Each one of us has a completely different life. What all of us share is the _pain_ of loving someone who is consumed by the disease of addiction. It is because we _love_ them that we are in pain and in need of support and strength.If we did not love them we would simply be done with them and never have another thought.
There is _nothing_ silly about your pain, nothing at all.
Mike
Moderator, SR
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 273
I have had a really hard time detaching lately as I see AH's anger and misery as if I am to blame (maybe if I went back to doing all the nice things I used to do for him, even though they're kind of enabling, he'd be nicer to me, etc.). Maybe that's my denial talking. In short my codie ways can take over, and my insecurities, and it's one big circle.
What I'm going to say here is more of the same. Go to ten zillion Alanon meetings and find one that "fits" for you and find some counseling for yourself. First regarding the word "alcoholic." Its a loaded word so I do understand struggling with whether he is or is not. This is a point that can be debated ad nauseum. IMHO the point where I went from binge drinking to flat out abusing the heck out of alcohol (alcoholic) was when I was drinking too much to be socially acceptable so had to start hiding it (your husband IS) and when rather than getting serious about what was prompting my use (depression, anger, etc) I would go and take another drink to self medicate. If he's doing either of the two (sounds likely he is) he has a dependency problem. There is rarely an alcoholic I've encountered (myself included) that isn't using booze in part to medicate unhappiness in our lives. So long as we abuse the booze though we are never forced to deal with underlying issues. Your husband may or may not realize this, I sure didn't. He may or may not ever "see the light." Those reasons are why you are getting the advice you're getting-focus on YOU. You can't change him, you can merely do some very serious self introspection, get some self esteem and support, and decide what you can and cannot tolerate.
I hesitate in saying the following because since hubbie and I have both posted here saying the following feels a bit passive agressive so I'll try and be vague. Lets just say that I myself did feel the way you did. "If I just do XYZ then he'll be happy." Problem is that didn't work and I doubt it'll work for you. Spending your life walking on eggshells trying to please somebody and feeling like you're at fault for their bad behavior and misery is no way to live.
As a way of plugging Alanon while our marriage has a long way to go my hubbie is much more at peace then I've seen him for most of our marriage. I hope that in time as I continue my sober road to recovery I'll find that sense of peace. I hope in time you'll find that within yourself.
Peace and smiles:-)
What I'm going to say here is more of the same. Go to ten zillion Alanon meetings and find one that "fits" for you and find some counseling for yourself. First regarding the word "alcoholic." Its a loaded word so I do understand struggling with whether he is or is not. This is a point that can be debated ad nauseum. IMHO the point where I went from binge drinking to flat out abusing the heck out of alcohol (alcoholic) was when I was drinking too much to be socially acceptable so had to start hiding it (your husband IS) and when rather than getting serious about what was prompting my use (depression, anger, etc) I would go and take another drink to self medicate. If he's doing either of the two (sounds likely he is) he has a dependency problem. There is rarely an alcoholic I've encountered (myself included) that isn't using booze in part to medicate unhappiness in our lives. So long as we abuse the booze though we are never forced to deal with underlying issues. Your husband may or may not realize this, I sure didn't. He may or may not ever "see the light." Those reasons are why you are getting the advice you're getting-focus on YOU. You can't change him, you can merely do some very serious self introspection, get some self esteem and support, and decide what you can and cannot tolerate.
I hesitate in saying the following because since hubbie and I have both posted here saying the following feels a bit passive agressive so I'll try and be vague. Lets just say that I myself did feel the way you did. "If I just do XYZ then he'll be happy." Problem is that didn't work and I doubt it'll work for you. Spending your life walking on eggshells trying to please somebody and feeling like you're at fault for their bad behavior and misery is no way to live.
As a way of plugging Alanon while our marriage has a long way to go my hubbie is much more at peace then I've seen him for most of our marriage. I hope that in time as I continue my sober road to recovery I'll find that sense of peace. I hope in time you'll find that within yourself.
Peace and smiles:-)
Last edited by cookiesncream; 07-24-2014 at 05:42 AM. Reason: quotes
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