DocSobrietist

"Thanks for the email. I need to leave the office, so this will be shorter than I would like.
My goals for our separation include a desire to have the space to work on myself and my own co-dependent behaviors so that we can have better interactions. I have been practicing co-dependent behavior since I was born, pretty much, and I think I will be able to learn better communication skills and relationship skills if I am not constantly rehearsing my co-dependency in our relationship.
Also, there is some element of healing that needs to occur for me. I think I was affected by the incident more than I have allowed myself to believe. I would like to have several positive interactions with you over the course of the next year so that we can rebuild trust and mutual love and affection.
I think we are both very needy right now, and have difficulty getting our needs met. I think it will be easier for us to get those needs met if we share the kids. Under the scenario I'm imagining, we'd each have the kids for 3.5 days, and could spend the remaining 3.5 days doing whatever recovery work was necessary to get back on the right path.
I hope this is helpful. I'm optimistic about the future. "

Comments?

-DrS

HealingWillCome

As others here have suggested, your wife sounds very committed to her own recovery and that is a wonderful thing. A gift to both of you, really. It allows you to put your focus where it really belongs which is on yourself. Couples can't be truly healthy together until each is healthy alone. I hope you are able to honor her request for space. It's a great opportunity to start some trust building.

ResignedToWait

Wow, I wish my AW were as rational as yours sounds.

anykey

Good communication is key. You have nothing to lose on it- and everything to gain.

canofworms

okay that is the note I would write to my RAH. My therapist told me that men just don't get it that women need extra time to heal and that trust just does not "come back". Men get over stuff very fast and move on to the next problem and women dwell. Its somehow hardwired in the brain or something.

When my RAH told me he was ready to come home (after extended stay in rehab) I was okay with it but insisted we move VERY SLOWLY---why?

Because I can't get the image of him lying in bed next to me with those "crazy eyes" while he was hallucinating and in the DT's in withdrawal.

How many nights I couldn't sleep (or woke at the slightest sound ) in case he was going to lose it again. Trust is a hard thing to get back after it has been shattered.

I would have liked for my RAH to live elsewhere for awhile until I was more comfortable but not having much money was a problem --- I opted for him sleeping on the couch. He wants this to work out with us and he is going along and I am happy he is respecting my wishes.

Respect is a big deal too. Alcoholics seem so selfish and just the compromise on his part speaks volumes.

My therapist told me that if all goes smoothly and there are no major problems.......it will take at least one year for the trust to come back----I have over 25 years with this man and asking for a year of healing is nothing when you are looking long term.

In my opinion, Alcohol likes the fast and easy way.......to beat it, you go slow and steady.

Best wishes to you and your family

Mango blast

I'm happy for both you and her. Easy does it. One day at time.

You don't need to have all the answers right now and neither does she. Keep actively working your recoveries and things will improve. It can't be rushed. The hardest thing for me is knowing my husband and I are on completely different timelines. He heals quicker; he's less apt to reach out for help and yet is learning to do this. I'm tenacious, but slow like a tortoise sometimes with my healing. The best thing I've learned is acceptance of both him and I -- how we are, flaws and all. That wasn't easy. I had to do a lot of self-work to get there. It was a huge turning point for both of us. It doesn't mean not improving, just accepting as-is unconditionally in spite of the flaws, and going forward the best we can.

allforcnm

I hope by now you have had additional feedback from her... with such a serious topic my first thought is why would she write it when she knew she didn't have time... why not wait until she had time time to write in length, or talk to you in person... as that's what she said she wanted to do...

I personally don't understand her philosophy that while in recovery....being around you forces her to rehearse her codependent behavior. I would think it would be the opposite and she would learn from the interactions, and could practice the new skills she is constantly learning. it would be an ongoing process. But maybe since she has already been in alanon a year and there has been further deterioration of your marriage, she doesn't feel capable of ongoing interactions.? I just don't see how you rebuild a marriage with the belief "several positive interactions" over the course of a year will work to rebuild trust, mutual love and affection. But she never actually mentions the marriage anywhere..... and her optimism is for the future... in general..

She just sounds very detached, noncommittal IMO...

My hope is that she intends to have ongoing interactions with you during your separation, follow the advise of the marriage counselor in methods to rebuild the relationship WHILE working on her own recovery.

In your case I think the Nesting Agreement might be a good option. If she is the one asking for a break, then maybe she needs to get out of her safety zone, experience the same change in lifestyle that you would be facing... Otherwise with a year separation, I feel like you need a more stable environment where you can actually make a comfortable home for yourself and the kids when you have them half time.

I think in terms of drug usage and the incident... I find a lot of family members of drug abusers/addicts share traumatic stories... overdose... or in the case of my husband his body went into shock when he was trying to detox from Xanax on his own... he had seizure/convulsions, foaming at the mouth, paramedics, stint in the ICU... after he recovered from this.. it was followed by a medical rapid detox for opiates where he was placed on a ventilator. Its all very scary.

Just remember her actions.... not her words are what will show you her truth.

Hopeworks

#1: create the most loving, safe zone possible for your children. Please make sure that they are getting the counseling they need to grow into adults that will not make the mistakes that their parents modeled for them in their relationship.

When we are broken and even shattered and lose our ability to love and trust it does take time... a lot of time to rebuild that trust. When we lose our center and everything around us and our lives are in chaos the path to true peace, serenity and healthy relationships does not happen in a day or even a week or month. This is best done alone for both the alanon and the A... I learned this in my own journey with my XA because we tried to work programs together for four years with NO success!

What I experienced and your family experience may not be the same...but if you really think about it is so wise. The commodity of life that is so hard to find is time and it is rare when we spend a lot of time being introspective and working on ourselves... our spirituality, our values, our choices, our relationships and by sharing the kids you each do get to spend a lot of time on yourselves!

Have you thought deeply into whether or not your concerns might be that you are not so sure that want to embark on a long term soul searching, deep, life changing journey where your world might change up and your wife might change in a way that does not please you?

We are all afraid of change... and lets face it... things might happen and change that are not on your long term goal list. It's scary....but I encourage you to jump on this chance to do something amazing and generous for your wife and children.

To do so would be unselfish and show unconditional love. It would be a huge deposit in her emotional bank account that you are willing to give her the space she needs and the support she has always wanted. If you diligently went after your own recovery like your life and family depended on it they will see it. They will not just hear words they would see change and if you become the loving, caring, devoted father they crave they will welcome you home in time with tears of gratitude.

I wish my daddy had done that. He died an alcoholic death alone. We had all left long ago.

redatlanta

I see several positive things about the note. That she replied so quickly, even if short, shows me she cares and it IS a priority.

I think it comes down to rebuilding trust. Its been gambling, addiction, porn….not to say through that that you haven't been a good father or husband at times (maybe a lot of times). The "incident" as she refers I think was quite a betrayal to her, perhaps the ultimate that with children and her you risked dying to get high - and then put them through it.

As for her recovery - as member Pohsfriend used to say often "one size fits one". I don't see her requesting a separation to be a failure in recovery. Rebuilding trust is a very slow process. Yes she sounds very detached from you - but that tool is a protection in itself from disappointment and hurt. Unfortunately the statistics for relapse in newly sober are higher than the statistics for remaining sober, she knows this.

DocSobrietist

Well, the way I look at things here is that Al-Anon is not magic. I know the whole "it works if you work it" line is uttered in those rooms too - but sometimes what's offered in 12-step doesn't always precisely fit the problems being offered (which is why so many others find success in therapy, non-12-step recovery, etc.), and it has nothing to do with lack of effort - my wife is working very hard at this. Anyways.

I hear what's being said about detachment. I see my wife practicing detachment, but angry detachment has been what she has been falling back on with regularity, particularly over the last year as things have gotten much worse.

I interpreted her email as being positive, while at the same time I interpret her email as practicing her version of detachment even as she writes it. She feels like any close interactions with me right now start her on that path of re-enacting that codependency stuff without even thinking about it, and the fact is - I FEEL IT TOO. I agree. Do I relish the idea of potentially waiting a whole year, living like a coparent-ascetic (no sex!), in relationship limbo, with still an uncertain future with her? NO. But again, part of me is really relieved by this idea. I have been *exhausted* by all the tension and fighting that's been going on over the last year, and really, the last seven years or more. I feel like I've been walking on eggshells around my wife since she got sober, and it's been years, and that's no way to live. Neither of us have been living our completely authentic selves, and that can be TIRING. So I actually am in many ways on board with this idea to a degree that almost surprises me.

However, back to the vagueness of the email (which may be in part due to the fact it was brief and did not necessarily have much detail) - if my wife wants to divorce me and split up the marriage - I want her to say it. I have a nagging fear that part of her codependency is not being able to say such a thing if she really wants to say it. She doesn't want to hurt my feelings, she wants to be loyal, she wants to say what I want to hear, etc. - so I really will need to proceed with my plan of just listening to her this monday, and listening hard. We still can't proceed without a lot of discussion and listening to each other first.

So anyways, I think we can spend a lot of time analyzing my wife's email here. She said she didn't have a lot of time to write it, and she left a lot out. I (deliberately) haven't made a lot of time to talk more about this with her - and that's because I want to engage her only with the therapist present at this point - I need some help figuring out the "rules" as to how to talk to her.

I was talking with a friend on the phone about her (my best friend at work - she knows *everything* that's going on), and I told her that what I think my wife are now embarking on is the metaphorical equivalent of a complete house teardown and rebuild of our relationship. We're not selling the property, mind you (dissolving the marriage), but we're ripping down the entire house to the foundation, and rebuilding it from scratch, because we've found over the last year there is just too much rot in the existing structure for it to be livable. But, we like the property far, far too much to give it up yet.

My wife came home last night (after sending the email). I had spent a pleasant day with my 3-year-old daughter and then my son after picking him up from kindergarten. We briefly chatted. She asked me if I wanted to go to dinner with the three of them. I really wanted to, but I said no - it felt too weird. I really need to talk to the couple's therapist first. I think that was wise of me, if not outright healthy of me to do so. I have my own codependency stuff that I agree, I rehearse with her without even consciously thinking about. I mean, I'm not just the recovering addict / alcoholic and she's the codie - we're BOTH in that role (she's an RA and I'm a codie as well). We both share this in common.

Anyways, more to come. A few more nights in the hotel and then next monday working out the ground rules, more details, etc. This is still a mess, but it doesn't seem quite as gloomy and dark as it did a day or so ago. Thanks for listening, everyone, and I appreciate everyone's comments.

-DrS

Mango blast

Alanon is not magic, no one said it is. I will testify that by working the 12 steps, time and again it does work.

My husband in the past (while in active addiction) threw my health at me, saying all I was doing obviously wasn't working! He was mad about the lack of progress he perceived. I told him he had no idea how much it all was helping and how bad I would be without it. He didn't get it, wasn't listening and at the time kept pulling back my healing process.

There are many times, including fairly recently, if I had pushed him to ask if he wanted a divorce, we likely wouldn't be working so hard at staying together now. Why do you want so much for her to say she wants a divorce if that's ever on her mind?? Why not give her time to sort through things like she's asking? From what I gather from her email, it's a healthy detachment on working on herself, not the preparation to divorce someone.

Continuing to worry about what someone else is thinking is not a part of healthy recovery. When I do that, I know beyond anything else that I need to work my program harder and figure out how to redirect my own focus back to myself.

Let go. That doesn't mean give up. That means to work your own program and stop worrying about hers.

btw -- my husband has a lot on his mind this morning with work. He went over a some things with me that I'm supposed to be doing today. I already knew that; he needs to take care of his stuff and realize whether I am able to do mine or not is up to me, not him. What I manage to get done is a positive for me and I am learning to let anything else go and not beat myself up about it. With him trying to control it, he brings a negative focus to anything I'm not accomplishing. That it's not up to his standards. I cannot live by his standards. I need to do the best I can for myself. He is setting expectations of me and that is setting me up to fail in his mind. Now I'm fighting off the irritation of him trying to control me. Time to do a little more self-work of my own. Each time this happens, it keeps taking my focus off what I'm doing and back to him.

DocSobrietist

You know, what I want is for her to say she's 100% committed to working on the marriage. In the past, when I've asked her, and this has been the case maybe 2-3 times over the last year, she's said, "well, I'm going to couples therapy, aren't I?"

That answer has bothered me. It's a yes or no question. This isn't going to work if we're not both committed to this work - and this is not laying blame on either her or I (like, she should be more committed than she is, or something). Am I wrong here?

-DrS

Mango blast

I think you are wrong here. You're trying to control her. You're not getting the answer you want and keep pushing for that. Continuing to ask isn't giving her the room she's asking for in trying to find that answer; on doing her own work in her own timeframe. If someone had asked me that question anytime in the past 8 or 9 years, most times I couldn't say "yes, I am 100% committed to working our marriage." How could I?? I first needed to work on me!

We've been married 27 years and we will likely have at least that many more years ahead.

HealingWillCome

Well, Doc, she may not have said the words "I'm 100% committed", but all of the above statements email show a level of commitment on her part, IMO.

Be patient. Be careful. We don't always get what we want at the exact moment we want it. Pushing too hard, or expecting that she meet your needs immediately may backfire on you.

I'm one who doesn't like to be told what to do or have expectations set forth by someone who isn't listening to what I'm saying. You can give her the gift of listening to her, respecting where she is at, letting her sort herself out, and then working on yourself at the same time. It's a wonderful gift to yourself at the same time.

DocSobrietist

I'm not getting the answer I want to the question - it's that I'm not getting an answer to the question at all. I just dont see how it's trying to "control" someone to simply ask a question - maybe we just see things differently here.

Whether I'm dissatisfied with the answer (or her avoidance in answering the question) or not is not her responsibility either, of course.

Just briefly chatted with my wife before she went to her meeting. We were amiable, but also briefly chatted about tough stuff too (but were polite and cordial and reasonable when we did it). I asked her that question. She said, "Yes, I am committed to working on the marriage, today" (in other words, she can't speak about tomorrow or yesterday). I am satisfied with that answer.

She also said something pretty useful - she told me that she is really trying to just speak her mind, say what she wants, and try not to "manipulate" me in trying to feel better about the things she's saying or asking for. For example, if she says something and I feel angry or hurt about it, that she just lets me feel angry, and sticks to what she wants. I told her that's great - because I see her going through all this effort and exertion to try and prevent me from feeling (or expressing) negative feelings and frankly it's extremely stressful for me, and pretty much is tailor made to backfire on both of us. So I told her that's good. Progress.

-DrS

HealingWillCome

Just posted about this very point. I think you are getting some answers, just not hearing the exact phrase you would like to hear.

biminiblue

Doc, I think you're wrong for pushing as well. If you continue to push and she is not sure, you may push yourself right up against divorce.

In this year separation, she may or may not decide she wants to make it permanent. So might you. Part of recovery is letting go. Total surrender. If you continue to push, you are not going to like the outcome. The way things are is not working. You don't know what the future will bring, but trying to control her - like you've been doing in all your threads - will. not. work.

Fathom

"The one constant in life is change."

This is my favorite saying because it's simply put and so true. I can promise you that she will not ALWAYS be 100% committed to this marriage, even if she gets there sometimes. What about 90% committed, or 75%? Would that not be enough for the two of you to try? What if sometimes she dips down to 25% when she gets triggered? Does that mean it's doomed? No, not necessarily.

What I'm saying is that I don't think your question has a yes/no answer. I think it has an uncomfortable no answer, because the question has set the bar arbitrarily at the highest level. I remember getting the same question, and I struggled with an answer that I could give that would be positive and encouraging, and truthful. I think the question is unhelpful. Words are often meaningless anyway in these situations. If she is no longer willing to work with you on this marriage, it will become 100% obvious to you without words.

Peace,
Fathom

Stung

I think she gave you a great response, personally. My opinion (do with that what you will) is that you're trying to make a problem where there isn't one. Just let things be and stop being so focused on the outcome. You need to work on yourself but you're not doing that. You're studying and dissecting and injecting meaning into a very short email. Focus on yourself. Why are you putting so much emphasis on her correspondence?

suki44883

Work on you FOR you. Stop trying to make her give you answers she doesn't yet have. You work on you and let her work on her and let whatever happens happen. You cannot control this so stop focusing on her and start focusing on you.

Just my two cents worth.