HopefulinFLA

Stung you are such a brave, strong woman to work on yourself as hard as you have been. Your self awareness is inspiring. Your girls are very lucky to have you as their mom.

Keep up the good work!

FireSprite

I could have written this word for word. This is one of the biggest areas where RAH & I differ so greatly in our way of handling things that there are times we cannot even talk about it.

We have been together 21+ yrs at this point, I went NC with his side of the family about 14 years ago. It took me a while to really understand how sick his mother is, and I mean mentally ill. Compulsive lying, manipulations, constantly creating drama & revelling in the victim role. It goes deeper than that but I've never taken the time to fully dissect it, honestly. We live in different states so her sickness didn't touch us on a regular basis but eventually she had started to involve me in her lies unbeknownst to me. Surprise when we were in town for a visit & I found out! (& they were BIG, detailed stories of BS that involved me & my mom, not little crap.)

RAH refused to allow me to confront her & I told him I refused to pretend & play her games & dishonor myself so until I was "allowed" to be real there would be NC at all. So yeah, 14 yrs ago give or take. She has never been allowed to be around DD without me chaperoning in the room. Of course, I have run into her at funerals, weddings, family reunions, etc over the years & it is extremely uncomfortable.... for her, mostly.

RAH has had many moments of accepting bits & pieces of his past & the damages done. His father was killed in a freak accident when he was 14 leaving him & his brother solely with his obviously off-kilter mom. It damaged him tremendously & allowed him to cling to & accept & make excuses for her abuses in a way that he can't seem to fully unravel in his mind just yet. She had 2 children from a previous marriage that she basically abandoned over time so I know he was possibly in fear that she would do the same to him & his brother once their dad was gone. It seems to me that when he ran into an unacceptable situation with her, he found a way to redefine it in his mind to make it more palatable & acceptable... so over time it became easier for him to take. {and that just maybe he rationalized that accepting her as is was better than being abondoned no matter what the cost}

I also think these self-created definitions are part of why he has been able to accept unacceptable people in his life moreso than me; I call him Rosie sometimes because he always has his rose-colored glasses on where accepting others is concerned, especially anyone who has been pegged as the Underdog. So now he has to tear down those self-created definitions he has been clinging to - leaving him feeling very vulnerable like he is on a high wire with no safety net. He stuggles, a lot, but baby steps..... not my journey, not my monkey.....

Although, there are times that the fire in me rises (i.e. he shows signs of struggling with this) & I want to pick up the phone & rail off at her letting her know that as a woman I find her disgusting & as a mother I find her deplorable. I swear about 2 weeks ago I had one of these moments & told RAH, "Not for nothing, but some days I just want to punch your mother dead in her @!&!$@ face 2 or 3 times & I know that's wrong but sometimes...."

Stung

I am right back at this place again. Although I feel this protective feeling with much less intensity.

A few weeks ago (right after this most recent relapse) my husband went no contact with his mom and sister. It was very evident that they were triggering the ever loving bajesus out of him. They kept calling him and triganulating that he "needs to talk to mom more because she's old and she'll die soon and it would make her happy if you were and the girls were in her life" and then his mom would call him and badger him to call his sister because "she's really struggling with trying to drink less everyday and who is going to take care of her" when his parents die someday. Basically it's his fault that they're both unhappy and why can't he fix their problems. Thankfully he blocked them both. I have his whole family blocked.

Unfortunately, I know that even though they're blocked that they can leave me voicemails and I can access them. Early last week I looked into my blocked voicemail folder and had a half dozen voicemails from MIL and FIL so worried to know where my husband was. Seriously though, they were talking about him like he was a 14 year old boy that ran away from home, not a 33 year old man who hasn't been in contact.

I thought about responding or calling them but then I realized that it's not my business. His FOO is his. He made a choice and I'm not going to allow them to bypass him.

This week MIL started calling all of my husband's high school drinking buddies and their parents inquiring to anyone and everyone for the whereabouts of her son. One of them called my husband and now he's in contact with mommy dearest again. What happens when you put up a fierce boundary? She breaks all of them with no shame until you finally give her what she wants: to be front and center stage in your life.

Flash forward to today. My husband lied to me. He was telling me a story about some icky house stuff he had to take care of this morning before we could put up the tree and he added a lot of exaggerated untrue parts of the story to jazz it up (he lied). I know that he didn't lie because of me and his lies aren't for me or about me - it's all him. But I'll be damned that it doesn't still hurt my feelings. He told me his false story and I bought it. 30 seconds later he said, "I'm sorry. I don't know why I did that. X, Y and Z didn't happen. That was stupid, I'm sorry."

I asked him to leave. I said my feelings were hurt and that I needed space. We were having a totally boring morning and he just injected all this drama needlessly. I could tell he was pissed off at himself as he was leaving but dang, I'm feeling stupid for buying his lies and then wondering why? I know it's not about me at all but why?

Afterwards he told me about the stuff with his mom. He's doing some journalling and adding an extra meeting this evening and listing to some AA podcasts about lying. He originally asked if he could come back over to say good night to our girls but then told me he wanted to respect that I needed space and that he would see our girls tomorrow.

This totally feels like 1 step forward but 2 steps back.

And his mother is freaking psycho. I'm praying that he can find the courage to tell her to f-off. He can't make her change but hot damn, he can maybe tell her that he's going no contact with her this time and do it again.

LexieCat

Sounds to me like he's making a lot of progress, actually. He caught himself lying and corrected it immediately. That's real growth. I know it upsets you that he did it at all, but trust me, that was HUGE progress. Lying is a very deeply ingrained coping mechanism for alcoholics. It's a survival thing. Overcoming those habits takes work and not just quitting drinking.

I'd let him work out what he needs to work out with his family. He's going to have to learn to handle them without your running interference for him. I get wanting to protect him, but he's doing the right stuff right now and as hard as it is, I think you have to try to sit on your hands.

Hugs,

Stung

I think he is too. He went to rehab and was doing great and his sister and his mom were the triggers that put him over the edge. Since then he's really revamped his program. He meets with his brand new local sponsor at least once a week, he has a new male therapist, seeing a psychologist for the first time ever, taking naltrexon and some other stuff RX'd by the psych - which is huge because he's kind of afraid of taking medicine - and has been talking non stop about how great he feels, and living in a sober living environment where he's a full blown equal (in a nice house and in a nice neighborhood) is really going well for him.

With 20/20 vision, the first lie he tells me is usually the first sign of relapse behaviors for him. He told me a very small lie after rehab and my husband was so upset that he became really emotional. At the time I didn't think much of it. Now I know better. It's the struggle. I told him as much this afternoon.

I also am not looking for him to make this feel any better. My hurt is mine and there aren't enough sorries that he can say to make it feel better. I need to revisit my expectations for a newly recovering alcoholic. Do I expect him to be 100% truthful? Shame on me. Even though things have been going really well I should not be surprised when these types of things happen. So I made a gratitude list this evening and included in it that I'm thankful to have a sober husband today. He lied, but he didn't drink.

LexieCat

I also think there's a difference between a lie that is left to lie, so to speak, versus one that is a knee-jerk reaction and corrected immediately. It's almost more like a stutter than an actual lie. If he'd progressed to hiding it or doing other things to make you believe it was true, that would be a whole lot more worrisome.

And while we're on the subject of "triggers," "triggers" are more of a rehab concept than an AA concept. The idea of a "trigger" sort of suggests (a) that the trigger MAKES you drink (as opposed to the notion that you drink because you're an alcoholic and what you're calling a trigger is simply an excuse to drink) and (b) that you should avoid triggers, rather than deal with the uncomfortable emotions and reactions that are the real reason you drink. Dealing with life on life's terms, IOW. Unpleasant, difficult relatives are part of that life.

If he keeps this up, you will hardly recognize him in a year or so, he will be so changed. But in the meantime, yeah, keep a lid on the expectations.

FeelingGreat

Hi Stung, seeing he corrected himself quickly you could give him a little reward by saying something along the lines of 'I'm hurt that you lied, but thanks for admitting it so quickly.' At least that gives him some encouragement to correct himself if he does it again.

Re the NC. If and when he decides to establish NC again, it would make sense for him to tell the psycho relatives in advance so they don't freak out that something's happened to him. At least they'll know he's alive.

Stung

I could but I tend to be controlling and he (and he's recently become very aware of this) seeks validation from me. I also seek validation from him. One of the reasons that he didn't want to come back over here this evening is because he wants to try to validate himself rather than putting himself right next to me when he's feel ashamed and going for his old 'feel good' source. There is a fine line here and I'm trying to be conservative.

I communicated that I know that it's not about me and my hurt feelings aren't necessarily about him but rather that I feel stupid for believing him. I'm not mad at him and he knows that. There was no argument today and we're planning on talking later after his last meeting. He is mad at himself and I'm kind of mad at myself. He didn't lie to me about doing anything shady - he made a VERY *gross exaggeration, and I'll be fair, he has been doing this stuff since I met him.

*I mean gross in the careless meaning, not the ew meaning.

Hammer

WOW. That is SOOO impressive.



After having talked with some recovering A/addicts who get sucked into the Lie stuff -- it seems they truly do not know why. But it is a harsh and hard recovery addiction if it sets in.

Mrs. Hammer will not/can not acknowledge her lies even when caught flat-footed in them. Most she will say is "I did not know." or "There was a misunderstanding." Just more lies on the prior.

But for you . . . . WHO CARES WHY? Do you not follow that he has HONESTY underlying this? 30 Seconds Flash-to-Bang time is wonderfully close in this realm. ALL he needs to make it through is Honesty. If you do not understand this -- Go look at that opening paragraph of Chapter 5 AA Big Book -- How it Works. He is down to 30 seconds from being there.

So Happy For You.

dandylion

Stung.....LOL. Reading your post, the lyrics from the soul song hit, "Don't Make Me Over", popped into my head. I haven't thought of that song in years! (first recorded by Dionne Warwick/Bachrack and David).

***the sequel to the song was done by Jerry Butler--"Make It Easy On Yourself"

dandylion

I was also thinking: His family is controlling toward him; you are controlling toward him

Don't you think that boy has a lot of recovery work(big mountain to climb) ahead for himself.?..LOL!!!

Stung

I've never heard of either of those songs, although I do know the artists.

Don't we all?

Me versus the psychos. There is one main difference: I'm trying earnestly to be a better person. I am very conscious of being controlling or bossy (did you see my Pumpkin Pie post? I walked away instead of digging my heels in. That's a big deal for me! Last year I would have commandeered the process entirely instead of letting it just happen on its own course.) and he's actually enforcing his own boundaries too. When he wants me to be a listener rather than a fixer he just tells me that he wants me to just listen and I keep my trap shut and hear him rather than thinking about what I want to say. Thank you marriage counseling!

Okay, two main differences. I also support his sobriety and I understand that it's about a lot more than "just don't drink anymore." His FOO thinks that I am his sole problem. Not booze. Not emotional baggage. Not self esteem. Just the wife. Eye roll. I wish I was that powerful!

dandylion

Stung...you are far too young to remember these songs....but they are classic soul 1962-63. You can hear both of them on U-Tube.

The Dionne Warwick is the most instructive to the current discussion.

I think soul music is so great because it cuts straight to the emotional parts of the brain--without relying too much on intellectualization.
It is practically impossible to listen to either of these songs without deep empathy or ...actually crying (like I am prone to do)......

dandylion

FeelingGreat

My little sister had a vinyl single of (I think) Michael Jackson singing this and she played it over and over. We can still rile her up by teasing her about it all these years later.

happybeingme

I agree with others who are saying your husband is really doing a great job. I just want to add holy moly your husband sounds like a classic ACoA. Remember there need not be any alcoholism in the childhood home to grow up and discover your an ACoA. I suspect if he checked the Laundry List he would see himself.

It might help him to do a little research on the topic.

Stung

I had to come back and comment on this. Unpleasant relatives are only as much a part of your life as you want them to be. Relatives, in my humble opinion, aren't any different in terms of the CHOICES that we have to keep them in our lives than our friends are. Damaging and difficult people who don't respect boundaries or sobriety are damaging and difficult people who don't respect boundaries or sobriety, regardless of how you're connected with them.

My personal view is that it's totally fine to choose to have no contact with these people for a time until he has grown to a point that he can communicate and maintain boundaries with them. If they love him (and they do) then they'll be around when he's ready to be in these relationships. Any resentments that they may have about him not being in contact is theirs to manage, not his. If removing their influence from his life right now reduces his anxiety and stress then it's in his best interest to not be in contact with them right now. He really isn't getting anything out of these relationships besides obligation and guilt.

Further, they just flat out are not allowed contact with my kids anyway and they don't want to have contact with me. I don't want MIL or the rest of them pushing the message to my kids that love means you have to stay in unhealthy relationships because of DNA or that it's their responsibility to alleviate MIL's anxiety. There is a lot of dysfunctional stuff going on in their family and a LOT of denial. That's not how I am raising my kids and it's not stuff that I feel like they need to be exposed to as 3 and 1 year olds.

He is and has looked into it (both of his parents are ACoA as is my mom and FIL, one BIL and SIL are alcoholics too…so is his uncle and his aunt and both grandfathers.) He's joked before that he's way more qualified to go to my al-anon meetings than I am. I actually think al-anon would be really helpful for him. He's also codependent and controlling but sobriety is his focus right now.

LexieCat

I wasn't suggesting that you can't stay away from unhealthy people, I was just discussing the concept of "triggers." Yes, I think we ALL need to avoid being in the company of people who inflict unneeded damage to us. My point wasn't that he should learn to be in their company, my point was that he needs to learn how to take care of his needs around that on his own, rather than be sheltered by you or anyone else.

Good job on setting your OWN boundaries for you and your kids with them. He needs to set his own boundaries, though, for himself.

Stung

Got it! I misunderstood.

walkinganewpath

I'm not feeling in a place to offer anything to the conversation but I really have to let you all know that the dialogue you are having has been very helpful to me this morning. As does reading that others live in similar insanity and still find gratefulness...lol

Thanks!

happybeingme

Stung- I wouldnt recommend anyone who is newly sober to also join Al-Anon orr ACoA. That would be overwhelming. But, doing some online research or joining a site similar to this could help him with relatability and practical life skills. AA is great but, I think it is too limited. That is just my experience.

I have recently gone no contact with my own mother because I have come to understand she will never change. She is incapable. But, I first needed to learn all I could first about myself, her, and what she has in order to be at peace with my decision. For me no contact is a forever thing. There is no middle ground. It could prove helpful if your husband interacted with others who have done the same