hopeful4

Doc, I think you have wonderful points. It sounds to me like you are ready to wipe the slate clean and start over and that she is not ready for that.

I know I carried around bitterness and resentment for a long time and ultimately I had to realize that those feelings were never going to go away. If my X-husband would be drunk, sober, kind, a butt....does not matter. The love is completely gone no matter what. For the record, he is not sober nor does he act in a kind way. That aside, the only way I was able to let go of that bitterness and anger was to get away from him.

While I realize the situation is not the same in that you are no longer an addict, but in recovery, I realize how it impacts all of you, including your children. You are absolutely right, it becomes toxic to all of you. I agree, she is most likely as miserable as the rest of you.

For me, Celebrate Recovery for codependency is a great thing. However I found I needed actual therapy to help me see past all of these issues and get myself to a healthy state of mind. Maybe she needs the same (individual therapy).

I wish I could say I know all the answers, but I don't. No one does, most likely not your wife either.

I can only say I wish you the very best of luck, to your entire family. Please get your kids into therapy and make sure they are in a healthy frame of mind and know that you both love them.

God Bless!

redatlanta

I'm curious Doc what your relationship was before and how long the verbal abuse and silent treatment has been going on.

DocSobrietist

The relationship before (focusing on the last 10 years) was at times comfortable, fun, and functional-in-a-dysfunctional-kind-of-way, but with underlying tension. The verbal / emotional abuse, stonewalling / freezing out stuff happened from time to time, never a constant, but enough there so it hung over everything (or at least, that's the way it felt to me).

I felt for the longest time after the kids were born (6 and a half and three and a half years ago) that I was waiting for her to come back to me, waiting for the romance and passion to rekindle, waiting for the closeness to resume. It never really has come back.

During this time, I have worked in a highly responsible position in a very reputable hospital system, have provided lots of assistance with my wife in raising our kids, have never been in trouble with the law. I've been (outwardly) quite functional. Due to some mistakes on my part in not getting support I needed during some stressful events (medical problems with my back and neck, work stress, and also loss of a support group I had attended for years which I neglected to replace), I allowed myself to basically fall apart starting about 18-20 months ago, and my previously "controlled" (not denying it wasn't addictive) use of alcohol ballooned into addictive use of pills, a brief gambling relapse, and an episode of abuse of a very hard drug (which I hadn't touched for 20 years) which landed me in the hospital.

That's the story.

-DrS

hopeful4

Doc, one of the things I could not get past, that possibly she is struggling with, is that even when one is clean, there is always that fear of relapse. It is just reality with an addict. Especially when one stays clean for so long and then experiences relapse. In other words, it's living with the realization this could happen again, and again. At least that is how I felt.

I wonder about her childhood. Were her parents verbally abusive to her, or to each other? I feel I have a very short fuse, and I look at my father and can see where it comes from. It's a personality trait, one that I have learned to control. However, some don't learn to control that and it becomes even worse.

I think my husband always wanted the old me back after we had kids, but I came to the realization that I was not that old me anymore. His addiction, and my reaction to it, had brought out the worst in me. I could not go back to being that person anymore. It also killed any romantic notions I ever felt for him. Having intimacy (not just sex, but just being close, snuggling, etc), was not possible for me any longer because after the roller coaster of our marriage those feelings were just not there.

Maybe that is where her head is, just figuring out for herself if those feelings are there or not. I don't know of course, I am just guessing.

DocSobrietist

I think you pretty much nailed it.

To clarify - my wife's mom is an active alcoholic, and remains so.

And for me, I wouldn't say I was clean, at all, untill 11 months ago. I may have been functional at times (very functional, some would say), but drinking every night isn't sobriety, regardless of how controlled I was about it.

-DrS

hopeful4

I don't think I have congratulated you on your 11 months! Congrats!!

You are correct, being functional does not make it ok. For me, my Xhusband drinking "a little" created in me a complete mess. I was always walking on eggshells waiting for the shoe to drop, for it to escalate and become worse, which sadly it did.

Maybe she wants the space from you for you so to speak. Maybe she wants this year from you to see if you can continue in your sobriety. Again, I don't know, but it's possible.

I think it is great you are examining things and that you are in tune to your own recovery and preparing to let her work on hers.

Thank you for the insightful posts.

redatlanta

Was your wife aware before you were hospitalized that you had started using the "hard drug' again and pill addiction?

DocSobrietist

She was not aware of the pill thing, although she was aware I had used the pills in the past, more openly (for my very legitimately painful neck and back problems, now resolved). I had started using more pills in secret when a doctor had offered them to me for a legitimate ear infection later on (I really had no pain from that - but I accepted the offer anyways).

I never doctor-shopped or obtained the pills from an illegitimate source, but I was using them addictively - much like my alcohol use, I had been using them daily, in relatively small amounts to get high, but I couldn't seem to stop.

In terms of the hard drug, there was no "using." There was literally a single episode of use, which turned bad, quick. It's not something I ever had much experience with (this drug in particular).

-DrS

redatlanta

Well darlin, that explains a lot.

I am curious where you wife's mind frame was before the incident that landed you in the hospital. I am wondering if maybe she was already checked out. She may not have known you were abusing the drugs, but we all know personality changes are there.

Obviously your mind was in a different place to take such a risk with a hard drug.

Congrats on your sobriety it is such an accomplishment. I hope things have been calm at home.

DocSobrietist

Thank you.

She says she had no idea about the pills. She has said that she suspects now that for many years she had simmering resentments that I didn't stop drinking when she did, and that I wasn't more supportive of her sobriety (not that I was unsupportive - just that I wasn't supportive).

Also, I think my problems with the gambling, and then the porn later, weighed on her.

I don't know about personality change thing - I'll just not touch that one.

-DrS

DocSobrietist

OK, so I just woke up again (at the hotel room) at about 3:45am, with my mind going again. This, by the way, has become fairly common for me now - these early morning awakenings, and my mind turning to my relationship issues.

So here's what's going on lately - last night, I had a very nice meeting (Lifering, a meeting I now actually run as a convener). Of course I talked about my unbelievably sh**y last week, what with my living in a hotel, and all the thoughts, fears, and problems I have with the idea of separating from my wife, and my worries about the future.

One of the things another group member brought up to me (this particular member had 6 years sober, was also divorced himself, is amicable and friends with his ex-wife) was - and this had never occurred to me before - he asked me, "why is it you're supposed to move out when your wife asks for a separation"?

That sort of stopped me in my tracks, I was floored.

I have 11+ months sober now. If my wife had asked me to move out a 11 months ago, really, there's no argument - everyone in the world would understand why she would be asking, and I would have to say yes, and yes, I would have done it. But I've been at this sobriety thing for 11 months now, guns blazing, typically multiple meetings per week, and in my opinion, really taking ownership of my program and recovery (I really have - and I feel it too). My wife and I have been having a lot of difficulties of late, particularly the last 6-8 weeks, but I have to ask - at this point, are these problems entirely *my* fault to the point that I should be the one to leave the house, no questions asked? It occurs to me that our problems now are a two-to-tango affair. We both have a part in this.

I mean, would it make any more sense to ask my wife to leave the house? (The answer to that is a resounding NO). She's not entirely at fault here, and neither am I.

So anyways, that point really stopped me in my tracks, and also, I think it's interesting that I never even questioned this - I just unconsciously accepted the premise that morally, I am the one pretty much entirely to blame for my current relationship troubles and so THEREFORE, I should be the one making plans to move out. This is part of my so-called "disease" - accepting that I'm entirely the bad one, that when things go bad in our relationship it's my fault, I need to take the blame because really, I'm the one who made the bad choices. Black-sheep thinking is not uncommon with people with addiction problems is what I've found.

Of course, I am *not*, this coming Monday (our next couples therapy session) going to lead in with, "hey, this isn't my fault this is happening - so why don't you move out?" That would start a fight - last thing I want is another fight with my wife, particularly when we've reached this point. What I will say is, "why should either of us be moving out?" First, there have been no relapses, there is no physical abuse, there is no infidelity (at least, not as far as I know), no betrayals. It's not clear why (or even if) either of us should move out. Our problem is we fight, we're not getting along. Not saying separation is out of the question, but it's hard to argue that either of us clearly should move out based on what's been going on lately.

Also, if one of us moved out, the one who moved out would have to get another place that's at least two bedrooms in size, with extra furniture (e.g., a bunk bed, or two extra beds), and the kids would now be required to schlep their stuff to another house at least two days a week or more depending on the arrangement.

If my wife's goal in asking for a separation is she's just looking for a last-ditch way to continue to work on our marriage (which is possible), I think I'm going to suggest a couple of things. First, I'm going to point out that if we pursued a separation now, this would not be following the "no big relationship changes a year out from sobriety / beginning recovery" guideline (which applies to both of us - even though I don't do 12-step, I definitely subscribe to this).

Second, I'm going to suggest that if separation is something my wife won't back down on, the only kind of arrangement I can accept right now (assuming she still wants to work on reconciling) is something I heard suggested at last night's Lifering meeting - doing a "nesting" arrangement.

In a nutshell, a nesting arrangement is my wife and I find a room somewhere (much cheaper than a condo or a 2 or 3-bedroom place with lots of extra furniture), and we switch off with who is living with the kids. Neither parent moves out - they rotate.

I can see with my wife and I, in the first (say) three months of this we have a strict schedule with who is switching off and gets what days, etc. Date nights would be set, shared family events are set, and 1:1 communication takes place primarily by phone. Perhaps after three months, if things go well (lots of couples therapy takes place in this time), we can start easing up on a night or two. I stay and watch a TV show with her a couple nights a week. We get more face time. AND, if things get dicey between the two of us - for example, of my wife starts getting into her verbal nastiness / stonewalling thing because that's what she does - then I have an escape hatch that protects me emotionally and morally (doesn't make me the bad guy by pushing her when she she can't talk), and gives her space to breathe and collect herself. In other words, if we fight, and say my wife starts name calling, I don't sit and take it - I have an escape hatch, I get to raise my hand and say "this is not right what you're saying to me - I'm leaving now."

Also, again, with the nesting agreement, I'm not moving out (making me the bad guy and her the aggrieved party - I'm frankly *sick* of that dynamic), it's both of us flexing to try something different to make the marriage work.

Also, finally, if my wife declines this nesting arrangement suggestion - I think this will give me a lot of information as to where her head is as far as reconciliation goes - I think this will help to answer whether she wants to work on the marriage, or if she's already got a foot out the door. Which is possible. As you've seen from my other posts, she and I may have been through too much at this point for us to go back to the drawing board yet again. I'm beginning to mentally prepare for that.

What do people think?

-DrS

Hawkeye13

I hear what you are saying DS about not wanting to be the bad guy, or forced to move, etc. and congratulations on your 11 months. It really sounds like you are working your program hard and making progress.

I'm going to be honest as that seems to be what you after and you are doing a great job on sifting through the advice and views offered here.

I personally would not want to be moving in and out of a home and working on recovery.
So if I was your wife, I would most likely say no.

Whoever the "primary care" parent will be should be in the home--and that person should be the one with the sustained track record as far as addiction goes, in my opinion.
I say this as an Adult Child of Alcoholic(s), and a recovered alcoholic myself.
The children's peace, security, and stable living should be the priority--not your recovery, nor your wife's simmering anger and explosions towards you.

11 months, while very admirable, is still quite early in the recovery process.
You are still processing quite a lot of things, as I well recall from my own early recovery, so to my mind it is logical that you be the one to move, and keep working your program.

You don't have to choose to "read" this as you're the bad guy in the situation--just that you are making space for some healing for both of you.

You also don't have to choose to "read" her saying no as some message that she is not interested in eventual reconciliation.
If I try to put myself in your wife's place, I believe I would say no because it would be stressful and disruptive to "rotate" living as you suggest here, for me as the mother,
and the children not having a truly stable routine, and not because of a hidden agenda.

I also would still have my doubts about you not possibly relapseing.
I don't mean that personally in any way, but 11 months is not that long, and I would not be willing to risk the upheaval to the kids (or to myself for that matter) given your track record.

I know you are doing your best here, and I firmly believe recovery is possible, as I am living it, but the harm we have done as addicts to our families makes them justifiably worried and anxious in terms of trust and expectations.


It might be best to just back off and quit trying to mitigate the situation to "terms" you find more acceptable.
I am still putting up with some things I don't like from my spouse because I understand why he has so much anger based on what I did to him for years.
I can't undo that but I can live my recovery and give him space and time to heal.

It sounds like you both have a lot of pain.
I wish you both healing, but I really think pushing her at this point will have a negative or even explosive effect.
Maybe the boil needs to be lanced, but don't expect "calm and rational" when there is that much fury inside of a person.
Her verbal abuse, and the unacceptable levels it has gone to, are clear evidence of that.

DocSobrietist

Hawkeye, what you're saying makes sense. Thank you.

It's my wife's birthday today. We were supposed to go out tonight for dinner (had planned it a few weeks ago) - but it's been put on hold for now. However, I will be heading over to the family home this morning to watch one of the kids today, and I will bring her a "birthday latte" and a card.

I was up at 3:45am, like I said. Happens a lot lately :-(

I just wrote my wife this email. I don't think any of it is dumping or complaining. It's a lot of stuff I needed to say right now. I hope it's a good setup for our couples session on Monday. It's all true.

******

Up at 3:45am, thinking about a lot of stuff. This has been the most difficult week since at least 11 months ago (when I was in the hospital), and in many ways, believe it or not, even more difficult than that - I confess I've gone in about 20 different directions since the last therapy session. I've gone from self-blame and hopelessness, to anger, to resignation, to glimmers of hopefulness, and lather rinse repeat several times. Please don't feel you have to respond to any of this right now.

Before we make plans for anything - aside from arresting the unhealthy dynamic that has been going on between the two of us, particularly over the last 6-8 weeks - what would be our own individual goals for doing a separation? In asking this, I'm not asking for a diagnosis and prognosis of our problems and an argument as to why this is an inevitable solution (because neither one of us has all the answers) - instead, what would you or I want to accomplish with a separation? Also what would you or I want to accomplish with continued couples therapy (whether or not we separate)? What are your goals for working on our marriage (assuming you still want to do that)? My immediate goal would be that we stop what has been happening between us (mostly over the past 6-8 weeks) via whatever means necessary or effective to achieve that.

You talked at the last session about being "flexible" and open to discussion. Do you see any possibilities for arresting this dynamic between us aside from separation? On Monday, I would please ask that we talk, and you have an open mind as to whether separation is really the only answer, at least right now. Keep in mind I'm not saying I'm categorically opposed to it - because I see some benefits to the idea, depending on how it's implemented, and depending on our shared goals.

I think when you speak of boundaries, I think you're probably getting to the core of things for both of us right now. When one of us triggers the other, we seem to have a terrible time not at merely having boundaries, but at setting / enforcing them assertively and effectively. This has all been made more difficult for you and I because you have so much on your plate right now as regards navigating all of the resentments and anger you (understandably) have about what happened with me 11 months ago and what has happened over the years between the two of us, and having me around sometimes makes that work so much more difficult. I really apologize for that. This is the part about recovery being selfish - and I've been selfish, and while I know all the recovery literature talks about that being necessary to a certain degree, I really apologize for how difficult it has been for you.

One thing I commend you for is trying to do things differently between the two of us - regardless of how it's been executed on either of our parts (and I've been very bad at execution myself), I think we're both really trying, and your putting separation on the table is an example of that. If you and I are 100% committed to work on saving our marriage, I think if we keep with that attitude (whether we do a separation now or not) we will eventually succeed.

I love you, I will always love you because you're the mother of my kids, I've shared so much of my life with you (the very good and the very bad), and you understand me better than anyone on earth right now. When I fall asleep with you at night and your ankle touches mine, there is no more peaceful and secure feeling on earth for me than that. I miss you.

No matter what happens (whether we stay together, separate, or divorce), I really, really, really do want to devote my energies to getting along better with you, whether or not we remain together as a couple, I want us to be friends. I hope you believe that.

I'll see you in about a couple of hours. I'll bring you a birthday latte. :-)

*****

-DrS

fedup3

Doc reading you last post was very difficult for me to read, not that there was any thing wrong in what you said but it brought feelings inside of me that how I would have loved if my X would have tried just a bit of what you are doing for your marriage. All I can wish for you is that you keep working your recovery and don't give up on your marriage.

CarryOn

Hi Doc - I can really see that you have been giving this a lot of thought and taking into consideration all the various viewpoints and alternative approaches you have heard about. I hope that you take the open mindedness that is evidenced in your message to your wife into the coming days & your appointment on Monday, as I believe it will benefit both of you greatly. I second fedup in appreciating your willingness to acknowledge your part in where your relationship is and commitment to making it better. I continue to wish you both all the best!

hopeful4

I completely agree with CarryOn! I too wish you both the best.

Thanks!

ru12

Well, in my opinion, the person that wants the separation should probably be the one to leave the home. There is no way I would leave my home where my kids live... unless forced to by the courts. And if you do leave you are establishing a pattern that most courts will continue when she files for divorce.

It is your choice, but I would put a smile on my face and return this minute. Then I would consult a good father's rights attorney. But that is just me.

cleaninLI

I agree with the above poster. Since you are the one here asking for advice then I'm thinking of YOU and YOUR CHILDEN'S best interest if this all comes to a divorce and custody becomes an issue. Generally, the parent who remains in the home will be the one who is awarded custody. Perhaps your wife did find sobriety before you but is she truly in recovery? I've read the term "dry drunk" frequently and by what you have described of your wife's volatile temper and harsh name calling it looks like she has a way to go. Just the fact that you are on here trying to make sense of all this and keep your marriage intact tells me you have great intentions and that you care a lot about your family.

Its unfortunate in many cases when a person crosses the line and starts verbally abusing someone, it opens the floodgates and makes it easier to lash out at other people too. It becomes a pattern in how they relate to others. What happens when you aren't there to sling nasty words at when she's had a bad day or one of your kids does something she doesn't like? I've lived my childhood with this type of person who does not control what comes out of her mouth....my Dad got the brunt of it but when he wasn't around my brother and I did. My mother was also the daughter of an alcoholic, so I assumed alot of it was learned behavior.....probably the way her own father lashed out towards her and other family members. Not saying all ACOA behave in this way....the cycle can be and is broken.

I'm not even saying that she would do that because I don't know her. You know her best. She could be the best one to parent your kids. She probably does have lots of pent-up anger and resentments because of your alcoholism and addictions, and is only lashing out at you.

I really hope this does not come to divorce and you guys can repair the damage and move forward. If she gives a little toward making your lives together happy I think you have a go at this. Provided she is willing to do this. But, I do think that when you make your decision you need to think toward the future and how this will play out in the event you two should divorce. Your life and your children's lives depend on it.

DocSobrietist

One thing is for sure, I'm not agreeing to anything without talking running it by a trained professional first (ideally a mediator - as I don't want this to be adversarial). I don't think I can push any issues right now. I'm in the hotel until at least Monday, I'm not going to push any of these stickier issues without the couples therapist present.

So much of this is riding on where my wife is right now. So much of this is out of my control (sucks). I'm glad I sent the email earlier today. I'm glad I got her a latte. I'm glad I got to give her a birthday hug. I think we're well set up to have a decent session Monday. I'm nervous staying out of the house any longer without a formal separation agreement drawn up.

I'm hoping (without any basis for hoping, or being totally hopeless) that she's willing to consider taking the separation off the table for now and trying something else first. Anything.

Anxiety. Not ending.

-DrS

cleaninLI

Oh Doc, I forgot to mention the email. I liked it! I thought it was honest and sincere...you described what you've been going thru apologized for putting her thru it and even showed that you understand how it must have been for her. You explained what you hope to gain from therapy or a separation....making it clear, without being pushy or imposing your will that you would rather avoid a separation, but are willing to try anything to improve your marriage and make it work.

I'm glad you were able to see her today and be a part of her special day. I hope she saw that as your love and dedication towards her. She liked the latte....you got a hug back...looks like progress.