Anger, again
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Anger, again
I've been thinking about this because Aeryn mentioned in two different posts that she feels Al-Anon tends to discourage anger as an unproductive emotion. And I've noticed that, too. I agree with her.
I've been thinking and thinking and I think the question that came to my mind today is this: I know that as codies, we tend to mistake pity and compassion and guilt and attachment for love. That's something I've had to relearn. That love is not the appropriate word if I'm staying with someone because I'm afraid they're going to kill themselves if I leave. It's not love if I mold myself like an amoeba to what another person would like me to be. Love is being myself, and honestly enjoying the company and companionship of another person who is being himself -- and our caring for each other is something that is natural and healthy and happens without one of us compromising who we are as individuals.
So here's the thought that struck me: What if it's the same with anger?
Hear me out, it's not fully thought out. But -- I'm dealing with an NPD, possibly also bipolar, actively drinking AXH. He has again filed to drag me back to court. He won't win. All that will happen is that my legal bills will get larger, and since he isn't paying me a penny, that will result in less money I can spend on the children he helped bring into this world.
Today I just lost it. (I thought.) I told my lawyer I'm done. See, what AXH does is he files some damn complaint or request for revisiting of something that the court accepts, and then he contacts my lawyer and says "I will withdraw this IF MY EX does thus and such." It's all a ruse to maintain the conflict and get vengeance on me by not letting me live my life in peace.
I've done too much compromising. So today, I just said, "No. No more compromise. He wants a court fight? Bring it. Let me know what the court date is. I will bring documentation that shows that I have lived up to not just the letter but the spirit of the court decisions that have been handed down, and I will also bring documentation that shows that he has NOT. You can tell him that."
I then apologized to my lawyer in a second e-mail and said "I just got so ANGRY" and he responded "That's not anger. That's rational thought."
Wow. Well, maybe my anger didn't come across? But it occurred to me that maybe just as I have misdiagnosed "love" for most of my life, what if I've misdiagnosed "anger"? What if what I call "anger" is simply "standing up for myself"? And the brewing feeling I get in my stomach is just healthy?
Thoughts?
I've been thinking and thinking and I think the question that came to my mind today is this: I know that as codies, we tend to mistake pity and compassion and guilt and attachment for love. That's something I've had to relearn. That love is not the appropriate word if I'm staying with someone because I'm afraid they're going to kill themselves if I leave. It's not love if I mold myself like an amoeba to what another person would like me to be. Love is being myself, and honestly enjoying the company and companionship of another person who is being himself -- and our caring for each other is something that is natural and healthy and happens without one of us compromising who we are as individuals.
So here's the thought that struck me: What if it's the same with anger?
Hear me out, it's not fully thought out. But -- I'm dealing with an NPD, possibly also bipolar, actively drinking AXH. He has again filed to drag me back to court. He won't win. All that will happen is that my legal bills will get larger, and since he isn't paying me a penny, that will result in less money I can spend on the children he helped bring into this world.
Today I just lost it. (I thought.) I told my lawyer I'm done. See, what AXH does is he files some damn complaint or request for revisiting of something that the court accepts, and then he contacts my lawyer and says "I will withdraw this IF MY EX does thus and such." It's all a ruse to maintain the conflict and get vengeance on me by not letting me live my life in peace.
I've done too much compromising. So today, I just said, "No. No more compromise. He wants a court fight? Bring it. Let me know what the court date is. I will bring documentation that shows that I have lived up to not just the letter but the spirit of the court decisions that have been handed down, and I will also bring documentation that shows that he has NOT. You can tell him that."
I then apologized to my lawyer in a second e-mail and said "I just got so ANGRY" and he responded "That's not anger. That's rational thought."
Wow. Well, maybe my anger didn't come across? But it occurred to me that maybe just as I have misdiagnosed "love" for most of my life, what if I've misdiagnosed "anger"? What if what I call "anger" is simply "standing up for myself"? And the brewing feeling I get in my stomach is just healthy?
Thoughts?
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Yeah, that's not anger, them's BOUNDARIES. (Also, good for you. Screw him.)
I think for us we are taught that you have to be FED UP to draw lines in the sand, when regular folks are always drawing lines and renegotiating lines without drama. I was taught that to say no was rude, so to justify my insolence, I had to have real drama and pomp to do it, and all the build-up of anxiety that came with it.
I think for us we are taught that you have to be FED UP to draw lines in the sand, when regular folks are always drawing lines and renegotiating lines without drama. I was taught that to say no was rude, so to justify my insolence, I had to have real drama and pomp to do it, and all the build-up of anxiety that came with it.
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Lillamy-
I have been in anger for awhile now, and almost brought up one of your old posts a number of weeks ago as my therapist and I worked on something similar.
I can BE angry, I can BE in conflict, I can set boundaries.
I can't control other's reactions. My hubby would overeact to my tip toeing around a little thing that I always shut down. I also was terrified of bringing up something big because I always ended up leaving those discussions thinking it was my fault. I said it wrong, I did it wrong etc.
I am starting to learn that anger is my signal that someone crossed a line or boundary. It is protective, it is resilant and for me it is about time.
I am also starting to learn that just because I FEEL angry it does not make my behavior or actions around it wrong or inappropriate. I don't usually yell or raise my voice, but I am still upset/angry.
Finally what she shared about Al-anon (being a double winner) was that for some in Al-Anon they come in with BIG emotions. Yelling, angry, really upset or sad, and sometimes with BIG behaviors to go along with it. Her belief is the modulation of emotion that Al-Anon talks about is from that. In her opinion that is one of the extremes of how people in Al-anon act, feel and behave.
I have struggled off and on in Al-Anon with one big arching theme....I feel in some ways that they try to encourage suppressing of emotions, something I excel at (probably related to my own addiction issues).
She helped me to see that I came into recovery completely emotionless, and into Al-Anon just starting to tap into what I feel. I tend to not be big about emotion, and even less big in my actions around emotions.
She also reminded me that we come to Al-anon to get well, but that not everyone is working their recovery as hard as I have been.
Taking what I like from Al-Anon about this topic has been a huge learning experience for me. I have brought it up on more than one occasion as a topic for the meeting, and I have learned so much when I have. Again having my therapist to help me sort the discrepancies have been invaluable.
I have been in anger for awhile now, and almost brought up one of your old posts a number of weeks ago as my therapist and I worked on something similar.
I can BE angry, I can BE in conflict, I can set boundaries.
I can't control other's reactions. My hubby would overeact to my tip toeing around a little thing that I always shut down. I also was terrified of bringing up something big because I always ended up leaving those discussions thinking it was my fault. I said it wrong, I did it wrong etc.
I am starting to learn that anger is my signal that someone crossed a line or boundary. It is protective, it is resilant and for me it is about time.
I am also starting to learn that just because I FEEL angry it does not make my behavior or actions around it wrong or inappropriate. I don't usually yell or raise my voice, but I am still upset/angry.
Finally what she shared about Al-anon (being a double winner) was that for some in Al-Anon they come in with BIG emotions. Yelling, angry, really upset or sad, and sometimes with BIG behaviors to go along with it. Her belief is the modulation of emotion that Al-Anon talks about is from that. In her opinion that is one of the extremes of how people in Al-anon act, feel and behave.
I have struggled off and on in Al-Anon with one big arching theme....I feel in some ways that they try to encourage suppressing of emotions, something I excel at (probably related to my own addiction issues).
She helped me to see that I came into recovery completely emotionless, and into Al-Anon just starting to tap into what I feel. I tend to not be big about emotion, and even less big in my actions around emotions.
She also reminded me that we come to Al-anon to get well, but that not everyone is working their recovery as hard as I have been.
Taking what I like from Al-Anon about this topic has been a huge learning experience for me. I have brought it up on more than one occasion as a topic for the meeting, and I have learned so much when I have. Again having my therapist to help me sort the discrepancies have been invaluable.
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I am starting to learn that anger is my signal that someone crossed a line or boundary. It is protective, it is resilant and for me it is about time.
And I totally agree with the "take what you want and leave the rest" at Al-Anon. They, and SR, saved my sanity.
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Originally Posted by lillamy 
Love is being myself, and honestly enjoying the company and companionship of another person who is being himself -- and our caring for each other is something that is natural and healthy and happens without one of us compromising who we are as individuals.
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Originally Posted by lillamy
I've done too much compromising. So today, I just said, "No. No more compromise. He wants a court fight? Bring it. Let me know what the court date is. I will bring documentation that shows that I have lived up to not just the letter but the spirit of the court decisions that have been handed down, and I will also bring documentation that shows that he has NOT. You can tell him that."
Nothing to apologize about at all. JMHO.
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Well I saw this clip on FB and I think it speaks to a larger issues how emotions are perceived differently depending on their gender. At least it is wicked funny.
The Broads Must Be Crazy - Belittled Women - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central
The Broads Must Be Crazy - Belittled Women - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central
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Anger *can* of course be VERY unproductive... anything to excess is usually a problem. But, I don't think anger would exist if it did not have its purpose and place, at times.
Peace.
Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But when they get angry, they bring about a change. ~James Russell Lowell
Peace.
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Good food for thought, lillamy. I wouldn’t say you’ve been misdiagnosing anger. Anger has some pretty distinct characteristics. Maybe what you experienced is a healthy response to the anger you were rightfully feeling?
Your post made me dig out an old self-help book called Mind Over Mood. I used it years ago after xah’s affair which ended our marriage. The exercises on understanding anger were helpful at the time. For whatever reason, I believed that it was wrong to feel anger. I was trying to cope with betrayal on bazillion different levels, and not letting myself feel angry about it. THAT is unproductive.
These passages from the book relate to your thoughts about anger, I think:
“There is great individual variation in the type of event that elicits anger. One person may get angry standing in line and yet listen calmly to criticisms of job performance. A different person may be perfectly content to stand in line and yet quickly attack anyone who points out work flaws. The types of events that provoke our anger are usually linked to our past as well as to rules and beliefs that we hold.”
“Physically, anger is characterized by muscle tension, increased heart rate, increased blood pressure, and defensiveness or attack.”
“The cognitive component of anger involves the perception of being mistreated or perceiving others as being hurtful or unfair. We become angry if we think we have been treated unfairly, hurt unnecessarily, or prevented from obtaining something we expected to achieve. Notice the emphasis on fairness, reasonableness, and expectation. It is not simply the hurt or damage that makes us angry, but the violation of rules and expectations."
“If a child steps on your foot while you are riding on a bus, you feel pain. Whether or not you feel angry depends on your interpretation of the intent and reasonableness of the child’s behavior. Your anger is likely to be quick if you think the injury was intentional. But if you think that the child stepped on your foot by accident when a swerve of the bus made the child lose balance, you wince in pain but probably do not feel anger. The probability of anger in response to an unintentional injury is related to your judgments of “reasonableness.”
“These rules of anger seem quite straightforward until you consider that people vary greatly in what they consider fair and reasonable expectations.”
The chapter devotes exercises to understanding and coping with anger, and describes natural behaviors associated with anger: defend/resist; attack/argue; withdraw (to punish or protect).
You really kind of nailed it. Standing up for yourself is part of anger. The brewing feeling in your stomach is part of anger. All natural, but your response (to your lawyer) was a healthy one. Thanks for sharing. I'm trying to work on anger myself right now. I too easily let a bad mood make me angry at others for no reason. Got some work to do.
Your post made me dig out an old self-help book called Mind Over Mood. I used it years ago after xah’s affair which ended our marriage. The exercises on understanding anger were helpful at the time. For whatever reason, I believed that it was wrong to feel anger. I was trying to cope with betrayal on bazillion different levels, and not letting myself feel angry about it. THAT is unproductive.
These passages from the book relate to your thoughts about anger, I think:
“There is great individual variation in the type of event that elicits anger. One person may get angry standing in line and yet listen calmly to criticisms of job performance. A different person may be perfectly content to stand in line and yet quickly attack anyone who points out work flaws. The types of events that provoke our anger are usually linked to our past as well as to rules and beliefs that we hold.”
“Physically, anger is characterized by muscle tension, increased heart rate, increased blood pressure, and defensiveness or attack.”
“The cognitive component of anger involves the perception of being mistreated or perceiving others as being hurtful or unfair. We become angry if we think we have been treated unfairly, hurt unnecessarily, or prevented from obtaining something we expected to achieve. Notice the emphasis on fairness, reasonableness, and expectation. It is not simply the hurt or damage that makes us angry, but the violation of rules and expectations."
“If a child steps on your foot while you are riding on a bus, you feel pain. Whether or not you feel angry depends on your interpretation of the intent and reasonableness of the child’s behavior. Your anger is likely to be quick if you think the injury was intentional. But if you think that the child stepped on your foot by accident when a swerve of the bus made the child lose balance, you wince in pain but probably do not feel anger. The probability of anger in response to an unintentional injury is related to your judgments of “reasonableness.”
“These rules of anger seem quite straightforward until you consider that people vary greatly in what they consider fair and reasonable expectations.”
The chapter devotes exercises to understanding and coping with anger, and describes natural behaviors associated with anger: defend/resist; attack/argue; withdraw (to punish or protect).
You really kind of nailed it. Standing up for yourself is part of anger. The brewing feeling in your stomach is part of anger. All natural, but your response (to your lawyer) was a healthy one. Thanks for sharing. I'm trying to work on anger myself right now. I too easily let a bad mood make me angry at others for no reason. Got some work to do.
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Anger isn't always bad - 5 ways that anger is GOOD!
I stumbled onto this via a blog I was reading and thought it fit with this discussion.
I stumbled onto this via a blog I was reading and thought it fit with this discussion.
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Just started reading a lovely book on anger by Tich Nach Hahn (I think I spelled his name correctly).
He is a Thailand Buddist, but the book, called Anger won a number of awards in 2001.
It is very helpful, though somewhat repetitive.
It encourages you when you have anger and you recognize it to cradle it like you would a baby, and treat it kindly and gently so you can distinguish the "Root Cause," of the problem. In the baby analogy is it because the baby is hungry, in a soiled diaper etc. He encourages you that by treating it like a baby and finding out the root cause you can help to move through it instead of being stuck in it.
He seems to be seperating out the feelings of anger from the behavior....and I like that.
I have not gotten to a part in it about boundaries etc or addiction so I still have some reservations....but I am relieved he has not told me to "not" be angry any longer.
He is a Thailand Buddist, but the book, called Anger won a number of awards in 2001.
It is very helpful, though somewhat repetitive.
It encourages you when you have anger and you recognize it to cradle it like you would a baby, and treat it kindly and gently so you can distinguish the "Root Cause," of the problem. In the baby analogy is it because the baby is hungry, in a soiled diaper etc. He encourages you that by treating it like a baby and finding out the root cause you can help to move through it instead of being stuck in it.
He seems to be seperating out the feelings of anger from the behavior....and I like that.
I have not gotten to a part in it about boundaries etc or addiction so I still have some reservations....but I am relieved he has not told me to "not" be angry any longer.
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Go girl go!
Good for you. What he is doing is pure manipulation. Why would you not respond in anger. We dance around all of these issues, we try to focus on ourselves, all the while dealing with addicted, bipolar behavior. Of course they could still have a quality life even having bipolar but that would require them to actually take control of their own life and choices, not.
I am just betting he changes his tune a bit now. I get this. I was so pi$$ed the other night when my kids called and said pretty sure ol dad is drinking. I was just livid. To my mom, I let out some very unkind yet very truthful things. She looked at me and said, "Good for you, it's about time you get good and pi$$ed off about this." It shocked me, she is not that way. However, she is right. I spent years trying to get him to make the right decisions and it just makes me very angry that he chooses to hurt himself and our children.
Fight for your babies in any way you need to. You are a good and strong person, you've got this!
XXX
Good for you. What he is doing is pure manipulation. Why would you not respond in anger. We dance around all of these issues, we try to focus on ourselves, all the while dealing with addicted, bipolar behavior. Of course they could still have a quality life even having bipolar but that would require them to actually take control of their own life and choices, not.
I am just betting he changes his tune a bit now. I get this. I was so pi$$ed the other night when my kids called and said pretty sure ol dad is drinking. I was just livid. To my mom, I let out some very unkind yet very truthful things. She looked at me and said, "Good for you, it's about time you get good and pi$$ed off about this." It shocked me, she is not that way. However, she is right. I spent years trying to get him to make the right decisions and it just makes me very angry that he chooses to hurt himself and our children.
Fight for your babies in any way you need to. You are a good and strong person, you've got this!
XXX
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I see no anger there as well. It is you being genuine in the fighting mode having enough and saying "That's it." Actually, that is probably the best emotion. It apparently made you ready for some real action that is going to be productive.
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This is really interesting. I feel like AA discourages anger and dismisses it as bad and something wrong with you. I seem to have the unpopular opinion that it's not quite right.
The way I look at it, anger is a natural human reaction/feeling. Just like sadness, guilt, happiness, jealousy, and fear and all of the other things. The problem is that I don't always handle natural human reactions/feelings very well. I take them to the extreme, often.
I've always been a person that will stand up for myself. I have to be careful now that I don't use the fact that standing up for myself is a healthy thing as an excuse to get angry and act a fool. I've done it. I can justify any of my own bad behaviors. Every time.
Bottom line, I'm human. I will feel anger. There is no way around it. Hopefully I will show that anger in a appropriate way that actually doesn't harm another person and may make a difference. My motive has to be right and damn that ain't always easy.
The way I look at it, anger is a natural human reaction/feeling. Just like sadness, guilt, happiness, jealousy, and fear and all of the other things. The problem is that I don't always handle natural human reactions/feelings very well. I take them to the extreme, often.
I've always been a person that will stand up for myself. I have to be careful now that I don't use the fact that standing up for myself is a healthy thing as an excuse to get angry and act a fool. I've done it. I can justify any of my own bad behaviors. Every time.
Bottom line, I'm human. I will feel anger. There is no way around it. Hopefully I will show that anger in a appropriate way that actually doesn't harm another person and may make a difference. My motive has to be right and damn that ain't always easy.
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Lillamy
You're thread made me angry - ha ha! (Towards your ex that is)
Sometimes you wonder when it is going to stop & you get to live a peaceful life eh?
I fully understand.
It has been said that anger can be a healthy emotion if it guides you towards a better situation.
Take him to court, enough is enough, let it be sorted once & for all.
I agree with the lawyer, I think you were thinking rationally & it was anger that guided you there.
You're thread made me angry - ha ha! (Towards your ex that is)
Sometimes you wonder when it is going to stop & you get to live a peaceful life eh?
I fully understand.
It has been said that anger can be a healthy emotion if it guides you towards a better situation.
Take him to court, enough is enough, let it be sorted once & for all.
I agree with the lawyer, I think you were thinking rationally & it was anger that guided you there.
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Anger is good when it is rational thought (as your lawyer identified). It isn't helpful and productive when it veers to the irrational (e.g., drunks quacking angry threats over imagined blame-y wrongs). Anger can help you see and enforce a boundary, and it can spur you to action and healthy change, rather than lingering in the inaction and indecision of passivity.
As a side note, fighting an NPD drunk - calling their bluff - can be a good move. Sometimes they are just bullies, and they back down if they realize they can't win or it's going to cost them money. My AXH NPD also likes to contact my lawyer directly, because it costs me money without costing him. I told my lawyer to tell his lawyer that AXH is not to contact my lawyer and that AXH's lawyer can deal directly with my lawyer (costing him money if he wants to bully and threaten).
As a side note, fighting an NPD drunk - calling their bluff - can be a good move. Sometimes they are just bullies, and they back down if they realize they can't win or it's going to cost them money. My AXH NPD also likes to contact my lawyer directly, because it costs me money without costing him. I told my lawyer to tell his lawyer that AXH is not to contact my lawyer and that AXH's lawyer can deal directly with my lawyer (costing him money if he wants to bully and threaten).
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I'm not an angry person. I am truly a pretty laid back and accepting person. Things rile me, but they are the exception rather than the rule. However, as a result of growing up in an abusive home, I learned to suppress anger, and when I felt anger, those suppressed emotions would manifest itself in inappropriate ways: Passive aggressive behavior, procrastination, sarcasm, depression, frustration...
For me, getting in touch with my own emotions has been helpful. It's good practice to be aware of your own feelings. When you're numb, or suppressing feelings you really don't know what you feel and your actions can appear inexplicable (insane) both to yourself and to an outside observer.
In contrast, my RAW has slowly given me the insight to see that she is (sometimes) an angry person. Anger roils around in her mind and in her gut like an dark serpent. Things that would roll off my back like water, fester in her. For her, anger is not only an unproductive emotion, it's dangerous. She used alcohol to suppress it, and it's vital that she finds other ways of dealing with her own anger.
For me, it's helpful to accept that anger is on the very long list of things I'm powerless over. It's an emotion, it's literally the physical reaction of my body to something that's happening to me. I don't control that feeling. On the other hand, it's only a feeling. A feeling is something that I can learn to step back and observe. I can watch as anger arises, and then continue watching as it passes away. I don't have to do anything when I'm angry. I can just pause.
And that anger that doesn't pass away? That's no longer the emotion of anger, that's our own "stinking thinking," that's the squirrel cage in our mind, that's our monkey mind. And that kind of anger truly doesn't serve any purpose except to make us miserable. But unlike that physical emotion of anger, our stinking thinking is something we can learn to control through prayer, meditation and changed attitudes.
For me, getting in touch with my own emotions has been helpful. It's good practice to be aware of your own feelings. When you're numb, or suppressing feelings you really don't know what you feel and your actions can appear inexplicable (insane) both to yourself and to an outside observer.
In contrast, my RAW has slowly given me the insight to see that she is (sometimes) an angry person. Anger roils around in her mind and in her gut like an dark serpent. Things that would roll off my back like water, fester in her. For her, anger is not only an unproductive emotion, it's dangerous. She used alcohol to suppress it, and it's vital that she finds other ways of dealing with her own anger.
For me, it's helpful to accept that anger is on the very long list of things I'm powerless over. It's an emotion, it's literally the physical reaction of my body to something that's happening to me. I don't control that feeling. On the other hand, it's only a feeling. A feeling is something that I can learn to step back and observe. I can watch as anger arises, and then continue watching as it passes away. I don't have to do anything when I'm angry. I can just pause.
And that anger that doesn't pass away? That's no longer the emotion of anger, that's our own "stinking thinking," that's the squirrel cage in our mind, that's our monkey mind. And that kind of anger truly doesn't serve any purpose except to make us miserable. But unlike that physical emotion of anger, our stinking thinking is something we can learn to control through prayer, meditation and changed attitudes.
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Originally Posted by lillamy
Wow. Well, maybe my anger didn't come across? But it occurred to me that maybe just as I have misdiagnosed "love" for most of my life, what if I've misdiagnosed "anger"? What if what I call "anger" is simply "standing up for myself"? And the brewing feeling I get in my stomach is just healthy?
Thoughts?
Originally Posted by Florence
Yeah, that's not anger, them's BOUNDARIES. (Also, good for you. Screw him.)
Originally Posted by mattmathews
I'm not an angry person. I am truly a pretty laid back and accepting person. Things rile me, but they are the exception rather than the rule. However, as a result of growing up in an abusive home, I learned to suppress anger, and when I felt anger, those suppressed emotions would manifest itself in inappropriate ways: Passive aggressive behavior, procrastination, sarcasm, depression, frustration...
For me, getting in touch with my own emotions has been helpful. It's good practice to be aware of your own feelings. When you're numb, or suppressing feelings you really don't know what you feel and your actions can appear inexplicable (insane) both to yourself and to an outside observer.
For me, getting in touch with my own emotions has been helpful. It's good practice to be aware of your own feelings. When you're numb, or suppressing feelings you really don't know what you feel and your actions can appear inexplicable (insane) both to yourself and to an outside observer.
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You know, this standing up for myself thing may become a *thing*... 
AXH backed down. My husband likes to say "when faced with a big bully, make sure you bring a bigger bully." And I think that's what finally happened.
I feel like I should do one of those NFL "oh yeah, who the man?" end zone dances. Would you mind?
AXH backed down. My husband likes to say "when faced with a big bully, make sure you bring a bigger bully." And I think that's what finally happened.
I feel like I should do one of those NFL "oh yeah, who the man?" end zone dances. Would you mind?
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