PippiLngstockng

I'm not advising, I am asking. Aïe!

Everyone wants to finish up this crazy divorce. Fine with me. Lawyer #425 wants me to offer him a settlement regarding the support/alimony, assetts, house and its contents.

Okee Doke. He really really wants the house and to give us the least possible. Lawyer #425 doesn't care that the house appraisal fell $70,000 because he fails to maintain the property. Xah's plan is that he gives me a few pennies and the place is his.

This was our family home. 2 out of 4 kids want to keep it in their lives for their vacations, if not to move back. Children #1 and #4 find it creepy and depressing.

It is Xah's life. If he wants to drink himself into a stupor amongst the relics of our former life, it is sort of his business. He wants to keep all of our things, too. Then maybe one day things would go back to the way they were.

I would rather he get healthy, move out, and get himself something reasonable in town.

I don't know what should happen to that house. It was a dream and a nightmare. All the beauty of the gardens, the pretty decorations, the sun and apple trees, the children playing while Dad played the piano and I gathered fresh vegetables with the little ones.

And the nightmare. The huge, dark isolated house where xah drank in the basement and we'd fight and no one was there to help when things escalated and ah wouldn't stop.

Sell him the house for peanuts? Rent? Sell to someone else?

He really really wants the house. How do I use this to my advantage in negotiating a settlement?

And I want some of the pretty furniture and things to build a new home here. How do I get what I want? If I give him a list, he'll fight for everything I want, cause that gives him control.

Lawyer #425 is no help. She's in a hurry and would just as soon let him have everything.

I thought some of you have been down this road and might be kind enough to share your ideas.

Thanks heaps!!!!!!!

CodeJob

What things do your kids want? Would they be in tune with the items you want? Maybe each child has a list of requests to make their future home feel like home?

I'd walk away. Things have never made me happy. My house is full of other peoples cast offs and not much matches. Well I do have new couch and Loveseat. Love these snappy pieces. Especially when I have insomnia!

PippiLngstockng

Hi CJ,

I do have lists from the children.

I am not walking away because the children want these things from their former home. They depend on me to represent their needs.

I appreciate the feelings that things are just things. But the children and I have given up our former country, community, financial wealth, language...

It would be nice if my daughter could at least get her bunny bed back.

ResignedToWait

Would giving him the house be considered as you taking a loss in your side of the negotiations? I don't know your situation, of course...but perhaps if you gave him the house, it would be seen as magnanimous, swinging more of the marriage debt to him to be responsible for?

redatlanta

Its like this - you go into these kinds of negotiations with a list of things you want - but you also need a list of things you don't want. Keep that to yourself. Your list should be long and contain the things you do not want as well as the things you don't. As you go through the process you bargain through and give up the things you really don't want in order to get the things that you do.

Ultimately you will have to give up some things you do want most likely but hopefully get the things that mean the most to you.

As far as buying you out of the house, I assume there is a recent appraisal? If not you need one.

Having worked in Bankruptcy and Foreclosure for years in another life here is my advice to you which I do not waiver on. Get your name off the Note. Get your name off the Deed. A Judge's Order cannot supersede a contract. I spent many an hour with a very upset ex-spouse finding out they were tied into a bankruptcy/foreclosure after the fact. Their names were still on notes and they thought when the Judge said the spouse who received the property had to pay for it that meant THEY no longer had a financially responsibility. Its not true, 10 years from now if he defaults and your name is on the note they will come after you. It matters not what the divorce decree says.

If the house is paid off, your name on deed, he takes out a mortgage and defaults they can and will foreclose against you.

Do not under any circumstance quit claim your interest in the house over to him as part of the divorce. That is the worst situation to be in.

I would ask that he give you equitable 50%. Its too bad if he has lowered the value by not maintaining, there isn't much you can do about that. If he can't buy the house then the house goes up for sale.

You are in the better position here - he wants it and you don't. He may pull some crap and I am sure he will but you already know HE WANTS THAT HOUSE. He showed his cards. Stupid mistake.

Good luck looking forward to this being over for you.

FeelingGreat

Hi Pippi, here are my suggestions, hope some resonate. I'm not telling you to do any of it; it's just my writing style:
- Good that he really wants the house; hold out for a better price, do it in a nice sweet womanly fashion so it's not head-to-head, but you need what you need
- Good that everyone's sick of the wrangling and wants to get it over with, use that by putting a few delaying tactics in there if he doesn't make a reasonable offer. See if you can hold out longer than him. Be sweet.
- Trade off getting some of the children's and your personal effects against the price and the delay
- Don't get nervous if he starts threatening and blustering
- Most people don't like this but I'll say it anyway. Don't give away any of significance for children's stuff. It's fine for them to want things they're attached to, but seriously, they aren't the ones balancing the budget, financing their retirement and so on. Children move on really quickly. I've seen friends of mine do this and then they find the kids have forgotten or don't care that much, meanwhile the friends have made major concessions. I'll go further and suggest you don't involve them much at all, at least in the negotiating points
- Do not give anything away, or make any concession without getting something in return
- INSTRUCT your lawyer about what you realistically need from this settlement, she's to make no concessions without your consent. A firm client is an excellent negotiating tactic for a lawyer
- Go online, or kindle or whatever and look for information on negotiating. Follow it.

FeelingGreat

Top advice redatlanta.

Hopeworks

Another great negotiating tool in dissolving parternships is have one party name the price they want and the other party decides if they want to pay it or RECIEVE it. This methodology keeps it very fair as the person naming the price doesn't know if they are writing the check or receiving it!

Let him name the price then it is out of your hands ... can't you see him absolutely tying himself in a pretzel trying to figure out how to cheat you out of whats fair when he absolutely can't with this solution?

Florence

What redatlanta said.

Have you ever read "The 48 Laws of Power"? It's basically a lesson in narcissistic and sociopathic thinking. With my xNPD, who is a narcissist who has no money or power (ha) I basically played off his self-interest to get what I wanted, and he walked away thinking he'd won.

A narcissist will never negotiate in good faith, so don't expect it. Negotiation and compromise are not part of the landscape. You know he wants the house. Be prepared to play a little chess.

Katiekate

I'm so sorry you are fighting this battle.

You have been through so much already.

The only suggestion I can make is to slow things down, no decision made under such duress will be a good one. I know you want it over with, but take a deep breath and try to collect yourself, and let the children collect themselves as well.

If you feel your lawyer is not really interested in what is best for you, as much of a pain as it is, find another one.

Think 60/40 split, it is reasonable and doable. 60 for you and the children the rest for him.

Let the lawyers bang it out, protect yourself as much as you can from the negotiation, his narcissism does not count in court.

Sweetie this is a negotiation , you needs and the needs of your children are just as important as his perceived wants and needs.

Maybe try to depersonalize it a bit. You do have power here. xo

JustAGirl1971

I'm sorry, Pippi. I have no advice. In our case, I was the one with the higher income. I've been told that I was 'too fair' with my STBXAH financially. But, I'm like codejob, things don't matter as much to me and I just wanted it over with! Of course, it helps that I am in a position to support my children on my own.

I definitely agree that your children should be able to keep their things at the home of their choice. That should be non-negotiable in divorce settlements, imo. Sadly, of course, it's not.

I hope you are able to work out a reasonable settlement with minimal contact with your X.

stella27

Pippi,
How long have you and the children lived in New Country?
It is very likely that they consider New Country and life with you their "home".
Let the bunny bed stay with him in the big house. That is a remnant.

I would focus on moving the children and yourself forward instead of grappling with a narcissist - by now they have new things and a new life and happy (er) mom.

Remember: When you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss is also gazing into you.

I wouldn't haggle over the stuff. It simply WILL NOT be worth it, in my experience dealing with an N.

KateL

In my experience it is impossible to negotiate with a narcissist xxx

MissFixit

I agree with CodeJob. I also agree with KateL.

This is from a movie but it holds true in your situation, "there is no winning, only degrees of losing." You have your kids, your health, some child support and you will get a percentage of the assets. I think you will feel better if you cut your losses with this man. You have a new life in Europe. That is nothing to sneeze at.

lillamy

I keep coming back to this post because I would like to offer some sage advice, but I have none.

On the one hand, negotiating with a narcissist sounds like the title of a horror movie. On the other hand, I know that when I gave in even an inch, my ex moved his positions forward and tried to take not a yard, but a mile.

So if I put myself in your shoes, my instinct would say "let it all go, I don't care" -- but my experience would tell me to fight just in order to keep him where he's at and not try to grab MORE from me... (like try to get child support lowered, try to argue for more time with the kids, etc.) My ex would have done that in a New York second.

PippiLngstockng

Thank you to everyone, I am taking it all in.

And to Lillamy - exactly!!! I have learned this same lesson. As my Dad always said, 'if you give 'em a hand, they'll take the whole arm'.

I have learned to make every interaction between us written, and to never let anything go with him involving money and/or the children. Otherwise, his behaviors get more destructive and out of control. He needs to get the idea that I, or a lawyer, or someone, is onto every move he makes with and involving the children.

But I go about these interactions in a business-like way and try to not get drawn in to any back-and-forths. There is some skill to this, and I do think I am making progress.

Anyway, I sent lawyer #425 my position regarding the stuff, after digesting everyone's input here. She isn't going to like it cause I don't give him an inch. Will keep you all posted!

MissFixit

One thing that is important to remember about the children's things. Even though their things might be with dad at his house, doesn't mean they are not the kid's stuff. They are just the kids things that happen to be with dad to be used when there. I know it stinks to think about but they are his kids too and for now entitled to visit with him.

Rosiepetal

I found it particularly hard to give up my home after separation.
I got married there & birthed my 2 kids there.
I grew up in the same area.
I couldn't afford to buy him out so I had no choice.
Years went by & now 7 years later I don't have the same quality of house nor money for renovations but my house is my kids home.
Turns out my eldest daughter can walk a block to secondary school & it is convenient for it's location as we move to different sports & activities.
So I guess what I'm saying is given time your feelings for the house may change.
My advice is go for everything you can get, I was too kind, had to fight to even get the furniture out of the house & still miss the personal items he would never release.
Hugs to you, I know its not an easy road & you're right lawyers don't care.

stella27

It's not that lawyers don't care, it's that they (we) understand what the courts care about, and believe me, it isn't personal property.

I have seen judges kick people out of the courtroom because they couldn't agree on the property. I heard one judge say "you have 30 minutes to work this out, and if you can't, when I get back, I am ordering it all to go to goodwill."

Divorce tends to bring out the worst in people and what is the most important thing to you may not be of any interest to the judge and you will be spending hundreds of dollars an hour to learn that the hard way.

It's a matter of learning where your resources are best spent - this applies to money, and what I referred to before, it applies to emotions, strength and mental energy as well.

I understand being attached to your own stuff and your children's stuff, but like someone said earlier, the minute he knows it's important to you, the narcissist - with whom you are in a big fight - will never let it go.

theuncertainty

I've started reading up on negotiation skills because I'm trying to find alternate employment and realize that with this one, I settled for far less in pay and benefits than I shoud have. I don't have any solid how-to's yet, just the following info:

Men tend to do better than women when negotiating for their own benefit. However, women drive harder bargains when they're negotiating for a friend, a co-worker, someone else. So we need to keep in mind that we're really negotiating for our kids, cat, dog, fish, housing costs, day care providers....

Best wishes, Pippi!