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Children: How to support their parents without feeding into their denial?



Children: How to support their parents without feeding into their denial?

Old 03-31-2014, 12:53 AM
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Children: How to support their parents without feeding into their denial?

I’m just coming from reading another thread where it discusses the long term effects of alcoholism and family dysfunction on adult children of alcoholics.
It’s heart breaking.

Sometimes I read or hear spouses of alcoholics talk about their children, what a great partner the alcoholic is when he isn’t drunk and that the children are too young to understand what’s going on.
I’m neither an ACOA nor do I have children, but I’ve had an alcoholic in my life.
Experience and wise people taught me that the great person and the drunk destructive person are the same person, and that a lot of the collateral damage f&f suffer only becomes visible after there’s a break from all the drama.

My question is – how do I respond to the parents who believe their children are not affected in any way?
(I know that not everyone is affected equally and I've also come accross lots of great parents who go above and beyond to provide a healthy upbringing for their children - these are NOT the ones I'm trying to discuss here)

I know everybody takes their own time to wake up and open their eyes to the drama that surrounds them and I am very aware how painful this is.
At the same time I also believe that the young years of childhood are very formative years and need protection.

I can only imagine how hard being a good parent is these days, especially when living in a family with alcoholism.
I want to be supportive and respectful to the spouses and parents I encounter, but - acknowledging that they are the only ones that can proetct their children from the insanity - not feed into their denial.

Any advice?
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Old 03-31-2014, 04:13 AM
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No advice, but I think you're asking an important question. Thanks for bringing it up for discussion. I'm looking forward to hearing what folks here have to say.
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Old 03-31-2014, 05:12 AM
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I don't think there is anything that you can do, IMO. To me, this is like asking how to make an in denial alcoholic realize that they actually are an alcoholic. Also, not all spouses of alcoholics are equal and not all parents are equal. I personally think my 2 year old picked up on a lot of what was/is happening where as other people think its way too young for a child to even comprehend more than "dad is acting weird, mom and dad are fighting, I'm scared."

For me personally, the best child related "advice" came from people who already had walked a mile in similar shoes. I feel like there are so many other wives & husbands married to addicts, with children, who can tell me about their own similar experiences and sometimes its their eerily similar experiences that halt me in my tracks and make me think. That did/does make me feel like they really understand and have experienced what I'm going through and already have come out the other side. And usually for the better. I also feel its important to add, that while only one parent mat be an addict I think it's very common for both parents to have issues to overcome. I was reluctant to buy in at first but I'm a firm believer that both sides really do need recovery, especially if there are children involved.
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Old 03-31-2014, 05:16 AM
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I know that when I first found this forum and started posting, I was surprised that some folks suggested that I might be providing a less than ideal solution for my teenage daughter. You might say that I even took some offense, as. I truly have her best interests at heart. So, I appreciate your efforts to present the issue in the kindest manner possible. I don't think any sober parent would like to be told that they are doing exactly the wrong thing for their children's wellbeing.
Although, my DD is no longer a youngster (17), my plans are to move us both from the home in May, when school is over for the summer. We should have a year of peace for her, which is better than none.
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Old 03-31-2014, 08:40 AM
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Hello 91111,

When I read how kids can choose to be good I started to feel guilty that my kid was no longer a 'good' kid but was a bundle of ACoA traits. What is his personality, nature/nature, ACoA?? My RAH isolated himself. He still does this. He's a smokin' introvert. So quite a bit I felt like I operated as a single mom. But where I used to be proud of my relationship with DS, now I wonder what was I supposed to do differently? When my kid holes up to play Minecraft, is he a normal kid or isolating himself like his father?

Partners are told to keep the family together, detach about the disease because of the Three C's, and just keep on keepin' on. Hope & pray AH chooses recovery on his own accord. Your efforts will improve things 50%, etc.

Personally this is why I am extremely uncomfortable about the disease model of A. Codie F&F stay and try to intervene bc they think AA, recovery, intervention, therapist, whatever medical intervention will work bc it is a disease. They split the A's behavior into A and wonderful partner "when he/she's not drinking." The problem is this behavior is exhibited by the SAME person. Splitting the behavior is not particualry helpful for a codie. "He didn't mean it...." Who the heck cares if he meant it or not - it is unacceptable behavior. A codie makes excuses for the A behavior bc we are addicted to the addict. IMO the disease model tends to discount the choice aspect that the A has to WANT the change for their own self. Then when the F&F finally start to give up on the cyclical and progressive addiction, the A says, "You can't ditch me bc I am sick. If I had cancer you would not abandon me..." So the disease model sort of fails to address the full spectrum of what is going on in addiction and hamstrings those who care by making us think we can get a medical cure or stay bc it is a disease - but at the end of the day it all comes down to the addict's choice.

Even when someone relapses, we say they did not have a 'true' recovery bc they were not doing the 'program'. They must have been a 'dry drunk', etc. etc. There is not one medical thing in the program except fellowship which could be loosely considered group counseling. Each day, the A has to choose not to use for their own well being.

And my qualifier - he claims it was a choice. He too discounts the disease model. Which surprised me bc he too threw out "I'm sick" as his new excuse nearly a year ago...

I had to let it all go. Whether DS is a good kid bc he knew I had my hands full dealing with an AH or not - hard to pull that web apart. As for the whole disease or not argument, I am not a MD. All that matters to me is if my RAH relapses, I did my time up front so I will be moving on. Since I am working my recovery, I get more clarity almost each day.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:07 AM
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My question is – how do I respond to the parents who believe their children are not affected in any way?
(I know that not everyone is affected equally and I've also come accross lots of great parents who go above and beyond to provide a healthy upbringing for their children - these are NOT the ones I'm trying to discuss here)

I think this is slippery slope, depending on the person you are responding to. It also matters whether the advice was solicited or not, IMO. I tend to just abstain from giving any unrequested advice. (part of MY codie-recovery is to stop telling everyone how I think they should fix their lives no matter how much knowledge I may have about a situation..... giving unsolicited advice is almost always a bad idea in my world.) If it's a poster here on SR & I don't have firsthand experience to share I tend to read & thank but not necessarily reply. (I learn lots from those that do respond though.)

If you're talking about IRL people, I think I'd ask them what they base their opinion on....(every time I ask a parent this I get a blank stare, which tells me they are making assumptions, & have no real point of reference) and then ask if they have ever taken the time to talk to an ACoA. Most often parents think that in the absence of dramatic crisis-like behavior (i.e. "acting out"), that their kids are unaffected & everything is perfectly OK. Most of them don't know the common traits that a child of an addict develop and therefore don't know what signs to even be looking for. So...... you don't think your kids are affected & you also don't know the signs you'd be looking for to know if they are or not? Hmmmm......

In my personal experience & even being an ACoA, I have learned WAY MORE by listening to others share their experiences than I would have anticipated. They are the voices that helped me to recognize some of the same patterns, habits, dysfunctions in my own world that even *I* was missing..... I truly thought I had escaped fairly unscathed from my childhood because my history is so much less abusive than what other's have experienced. I was so very wrong.

If anything, it sometimes makes it harder to define our damage when there isn't a big obvious neon arrow pointing it out & instead we have to sift & sort through every memory, habit & personality trait & put it to a litmus test to see: does it belong to me naturally, or was it borne of damage done via my environment that I can choose to change/overcome?

Stung made a good point to keep in mind - not every non-A spouse is healthy or ready to hear that they need to work their own recovery. If they aren't ready to hear & see all of this, there's nothing you can do to make them. I can see how, if you are really NOT ready to face the music, then you would resist any idea that your kids are hurting... that can be too much for some to handle emotionally. None of us wants to ever think that we are allowing our kids to get hurt.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:52 AM
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Thank you all for your responses and sharing your experience with me. I know it is a very emotional and not an easy topic.

I volunteered at a soup kitchen last december, and watched a young woman with 2 little kids walking in. It was pretty cold and snowing and I noticed all of them were wearing no jackets and the kids had no shoes on. The woman seemed really stressed and asked to use the phone. Later she told me that on the drive home she got into an argument with her husband who left her and the kids stranded on a sidewalk before he took off. The woman was very very worried that he might harm himself in drunk stupor, telling her children to stop crying as she would have to search daddy..

I agree that without having walked in her shoes in terms of being a parent I can not give her advice. I also agree that similar to dealing with an alcoholic,k trying to cut through her denial doesn't make much sense.
After having experienced alcoholism and its craziness I would not think that she doesn't care about her children or doesn't have their best interest at heart. My own experience taught me that while acting with the best of intentions, I made a lot of mistakes. Mistakes I have to own, and that I can't change but that I can learn from. I know it's hard to ask for help and I'm glad the woman came in.

I think what I'm trying to say is that while I haven't lived this familie's life, my own experience helped me understand a part of their struggles and reality, and maybe see it with more compassion.

What stuck with me in the Acoa thread was that children with parents in denial experience their own reality being disregarded. Do not speak. Do not feel. Do not act.
I believe it is the parents responsibility to raise their children and non of my business. But by acting as if nothing has happened and saying nothing because I haven't walked in their parents shoes, I think I am re-enforcing what some children might experience at home. I join their parents on the merry-go round of denial.
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Old 03-31-2014, 12:10 PM
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Well, I do believe every situation is different. Every qualifier is different and every child is different. Also, alcoholism is progressive, so a family in the early stages is less likely to have as big an impact compared to someone in the late stages exposed to more of the negative behaviors. I also think there is some element of denial in homes. We live it everyday, it becomes our norm so its hard to see it from a different perspective.

I know when I first came here I was in denial. Certainly my situation was different. My A was a closet, hidden drinker, never argumentative or violent so therefore how could my kids (pre-school and early elementary age) even know he was drinking or be affected by it. Well guess what they were!! The drinking progressed, the kids got older and started noticing things. And just the tension in the household from my crazy codependant ways and trying to control everything affected them. After a few years of reading and learning and listening, I see how it has affected them. My daughter has anxiety and is in therapy for it. I can't 100 percent say this was "caused" by alcoholism but Im sure it didnt help. My son who is 5 has severe anger outbursts now and is showing signs of low self-esteem. I do think this directly relates to my AH and him not being able to "count" on him to play with or be involved as much as he needs him to be because his father's focus is drinking. He will be getting into therapy too as soon as my new insurance kicks in.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:42 AM
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[QUOTE=FireSprite;4561005]
Stung made a good point to keep in mind - not every non-A spouse is healthy or ready to hear that they need to work their own recovery. If they aren't ready to hear & see all of this, there's nothing you can do to make them. I can see how, if you are really NOT ready to face the music, then you would resist any idea that your kids are hurting... that can be too much for some to handle emotionally. None of us wants to ever think that we are allowing our kids to get hurt.[/QUOTE]

That's a very good point. I think in every relationship with an alcoholic, no matter if friend or family, children or not, there's a lot of "unthinkable stuff" involved, and that it can be a long stretch from building awareness to taking it to action.

Even after closing the door to insanity once and for all, I had a hard time reading about "enabling". Together with the accusations I had to hear from the alcoholic and their "support system" it was more shame than I could handle, so I get what you say about the emotional pain and keeping in mind that every family is different.

I like the idea about asking family members why they think their children aren't affected and to read up on ACoA. Thank you for that!
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CodeJob View Post
Hello 91111,

When I read how kids can choose to be good I started to feel guilty that my kid was no longer a 'good' kid but was a bundle of ACoA traits. What is his personality, nature/nature, ACoA?? My RAH isolated himself. He still does this. He's a smokin' introvert. So quite a bit I felt like I operated as a single mom. But where I used to be proud of my relationship with DS, now I wonder what was I supposed to do differently? When my kid holes up to play Minecraft, is he a normal kid or isolating himself like his father?

Partners are told to keep the family together, detach about the disease because of the Three C's, and just keep on keepin' on. Hope & pray AH chooses recovery on his own accord. Your efforts will improve things 50%, etc.

Personally this is why I am extremely uncomfortable about the disease model of A. Codie F&F stay and try to intervene bc they think AA, recovery, intervention, therapist, whatever medical intervention will work bc it is a disease. They split the A's behavior into A and wonderful partner "when he/she's not drinking." The problem is this behavior is exhibited by the SAME person. Splitting the behavior is not particualry helpful for a codie. "He didn't mean it...." Who the heck cares if he meant it or not - it is unacceptable behavior. A codie makes excuses for the A behavior bc we are addicted to the addict. IMO the disease model tends to discount the choice aspect that the A has to WANT the change for their own self. Then when the F&F finally start to give up on the cyclical and progressive addiction, the A says, "You can't ditch me bc I am sick. If I had cancer you would not abandon me..." So the disease model sort of fails to address the full spectrum of what is going on in addiction and hamstrings those who care by making us think we can get a medical cure or stay bc it is a disease - but at the end of the day it all comes down to the addict's choice.

Even when someone relapses, we say they did not have a 'true' recovery bc they were not doing the 'program'. They must have been a 'dry drunk', etc. etc. There is not one medical thing in the program except fellowship which could be loosely considered group counseling. Each day, the A has to choose not to use for their own well being.

And my qualifier - he claims it was a choice. He too discounts the disease model. Which surprised me bc he too threw out "I'm sick" as his new excuse nearly a year ago...

I had to let it all go. Whether DS is a good kid bc he knew I had my hands full dealing with an AH or not - hard to pull that web apart. As for the whole disease or not argument, I am not a MD. All that matters to me is if my RAH relapses, I did my time up front so I will be moving on. Since I am working my recovery, I get more clarity almost each day.
I hear you.

I like the concept of alcoholism as a family disease. Family and Friends can get as sick or even sicker as the alcoholic (Depression, Anxiety, PTSD...) and just as they can't expect the alcoholic to take care of them - as he's not a professional AND a sick person - he can not expect their lives to revolve around him and his recovery.

Children aside, I believe it's our own responsibility to figure out if we need help and ask for it. Life is about the choices that we make.
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Old 04-01-2014, 01:01 AM
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When I first joined SR, I was in such denial about so much. There were a group of posters that shook me to my core to wake me up. I didn't like them at first, lol. There were also some very kind posters to comfort me. I am equally thankfully for both.

All the above the above posters had very strong recoveries, I think that's what made the difference for and to me.

Great question. Thank you!!
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Old 04-01-2014, 07:02 AM
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Great topic! And one I've wondered about...... A little back ground, been married 24 years and have 2 sons, in early 20s, and I have often wondered if I damaged them by staying with the father for far too long. I've been in al anon for 7 years. For the majority of our marriage he worked 50+ hours a week and was rarely home because of that and I really did function as a single parent the majority of the time. I would also add that the disease wasn't in full swing then. I have my own reasons for not leaving sooner, fear being a huge factor, but he was a great dad. I often felt like I was hiding the disease from the boys, but they knew when things were "off", but since we had operated so long on our own, they didn't really feel like it impacted them when they were younger. Fast forward in life to last few years. Hubby switched jobs just after oldests graduation, now works less hours (because the stress from former job was causing him to drink...haha), has MUCH more time on his hands, and throw in fact that we live in Nevada (can anyone see where this is leading?), and it has become a toxic situation. I've been in al anon for several years, I've detached, lived doing the "next right thing"for so long that I'm tired of it, and so are they. Since he changed jobs, and has been home more, I do notice that they have become "busier".

They are great kids, and I am soo fortunate, and thank my lucky stars every single day....but I wonder what I've modeled for them. I am not the AcoA, but both of my parents were so I know where I got my Codie tendencies, and I worry that I have passed on that trait. I watch them closely for that type of behavior, and if anything I think it has swung the other direction, and they have NO tolerance for alcoholics. To them it's not a disease, it's a choice, and they feel that he is choosing "to stop at a casino" on his way home over seeing them, and to that end I agree. They understand the compulsive part that one is too many, and not enough at the same time, but it's that first choice.....

So now I am at a crossroads in my life. Hubby and I are separated, because I am done with the roller coaster. Life is calmer again for me, and they don't "hole themselves up" playing a video game or taking only night classes, so they don't have to deal with their dad. They are comfortable enough to question me on what I've been thinking the last few years as his disease has progressed, they know about al anon and I've even heard them reiterate it back to me, so I know some has sunk in. They ask their dad about his "recovery" but also are quick to call him on his BS, and acknowledge that it's his life....

Now I instead of questioning what I have modeled, I know I'm that I have been, and continue to, model al anon. Al anon principals have helped me through some tough issues the last few years, helped me to accept what is mine, and leave what is not, and I hope that is a lesson they have learned as well.

That's all I have for now, thanks!

Last edited by Smiley1; 04-01-2014 at 07:05 AM. Reason: Spelling/grammar.... Hate typing on tiny iPad. :)
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