Rewarding someone into recovery?
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Rewarding someone into recovery?
I came across an article about the "CRAFT"approach in the secular F&F section.
The idea that F&F can "influence" recovery by positive and negative rewards triggered feelings of guilt and shame in me - did I give up to soon, haven't I done enough?
Despite my strong initial reaction I do not want to bash the program, but would be interested what others think or if anyone has experience with it.
Mods - if for any reason it's not appropriate to post this here, please delete and sorry.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ervention.html
The idea that F&F can "influence" recovery by positive and negative rewards triggered feelings of guilt and shame in me - did I give up to soon, haven't I done enough?
Despite my strong initial reaction I do not want to bash the program, but would be interested what others think or if anyone has experience with it.
Mods - if for any reason it's not appropriate to post this here, please delete and sorry.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ervention.html
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To the contrary, CRAFT teaches you how to map out your loved one's patterns to figure out the best ways to alter them. You learn two critical skills that allow you to do this. One is to identify the early triggers and signs of a drinking or drugging episode. The other is to determine which consequences you can influence or orchestrate yourself to begin to manage those episodes
I wasted too much time on stuff like this. Trying to "manage his episodes". Not guilt-tripping, not enabling, letting him experience the consequences. No matter what I did, how I tried to help, not help, make things work, let them fall apart, none of it made one iota of difference in the progression of his disease.
This may work on certain types, but it did not/would not have worked on my A. Possibly because of the other issues- TBI and PTSD that accompanied the drinking behavior. I don't want to judge either, because I know that there is no one size fits all solution for sobriety, but the best and really the only thing I could do was to get out of his way and start living my life.
I wasted too much time on stuff like this. Trying to "manage his episodes". Not guilt-tripping, not enabling, letting him experience the consequences. No matter what I did, how I tried to help, not help, make things work, let them fall apart, none of it made one iota of difference in the progression of his disease.
This may work on certain types, but it did not/would not have worked on my A. Possibly because of the other issues- TBI and PTSD that accompanied the drinking behavior. I don't want to judge either, because I know that there is no one size fits all solution for sobriety, but the best and really the only thing I could do was to get out of his way and start living my life.
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I have a really hard time with this approach too. We get so much blame-shifting from the A themselves in the interests of protecting their addiction... why would I volunteer to take it on?
In our dynamic, RAH has big issues with authority & I work really hard to never be seen by him as his "Mother" or authority figure of any kind. This method would have kept me pushing for more control & him pushing back simply to not give in to my demands, and the real issues would be left unaddressed. Never mind I don't understand the idea of having a certain responsibility to support/control the qualifier in my life without any way of enforcing it or holding him accountable. It's a lose-lose for us, IMO.
In our dynamic, RAH has big issues with authority & I work really hard to never be seen by him as his "Mother" or authority figure of any kind. This method would have kept me pushing for more control & him pushing back simply to not give in to my demands, and the real issues would be left unaddressed. Never mind I don't understand the idea of having a certain responsibility to support/control the qualifier in my life without any way of enforcing it or holding him accountable. It's a lose-lose for us, IMO.
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To the contrary, CRAFT teaches you how to map out your loved one's patterns to figure out the best ways to alter them. You learn two critical skills that allow you to do this. One is to identify the early triggers and signs of a drinking or drugging episode. The other is to determine which consequences you can influence or orchestrate yourself to begin to manage those episodes
1) Ain't nobody got time for that.
2) Are we dealing with an adult here, or are we dealing with a dog who has an engrained and stubborn begging behavior that we are responsible for changing?
My gut feeling is that it's degrading to the addict to treat them as a "case" that you can solve by a reward policy. That this is not allowing the addict the dignity of taking responsibility for their own life. It sounds a bit like rewarding kids for getting straight As and removing the reward or punishing them when they don't. I'm wondering how this strategy helps the addict develop their own sense of responsibility for their actions? If the authors here even see them as capable of doing that, and not just as an automaton that responds to certain actions.
That said -- you know, whatever floats your goat. I don't think I would have turned down any idea or strategy when I was in the thick of it.
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Dog Shaming.jpg
If I could have forced my husband into a public shaming I totally would have tried it, but it would not have worked and probably would have enforced his man child qualities that I already dislike.
For us, he needed me to stop interfering (which was sooooo hard for me at first) so he could focus on himself and I could focus on myself.
I tried rewards, punishments, being sneaky, being nice, being mean. I could not get my husband to seek sobriety no matter what I did.
If I could have forced my husband into a public shaming I totally would have tried it, but it would not have worked and probably would have enforced his man child qualities that I already dislike.
For us, he needed me to stop interfering (which was sooooo hard for me at first) so he could focus on himself and I could focus on myself.
I tried rewards, punishments, being sneaky, being nice, being mean. I could not get my husband to seek sobriety no matter what I did.
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Lets see, here is how I feel about it. I am not rewarded for taking care of my children, going to my job, paying all payments and keeping track of our money, lining up everything for our kids practices and events, doing the laundry, mowing the grass, cooking dinner or for anything else I do for my family. I do so b/c it is my responsibility. I do so because it is the right thing to do and my moral obligation to put my children's well being first.
Sorry....this method has always pi$$ed me off. It's like giving a kid a sticker chart for doing good at their chores and school work. Sure it works, but as a grown adult should you really need those things to do the right thing?
Sorry in advance, I am sure this will make someone out there mad, but this is how I feel.
Sorry....this method has always pi$$ed me off. It's like giving a kid a sticker chart for doing good at their chores and school work. Sure it works, but as a grown adult should you really need those things to do the right thing?
Sorry in advance, I am sure this will make someone out there mad, but this is how I feel.
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I agree with you, Hopeful. And the comparison that comes into mind is my children.
My oldest one was a straight-A student with constant headaches and stomach problems. He wasn't a straight-A student because he loved studying -- he was a straight-A student because he was afraid of the consequences if he came home with a C, because AXH would punish him for it for MONTHS. He knew that. His motivation was all external -- fear of punishment, wanting the reward (which was attention from his father, something he didn't get a lot of). The second AXH no longer had access to his school records, his grades dropped to the point where he was threatened with expulsion from his school. He had zero internal motivation, zero work ethic or responsibility. He was still able to pull As, but he didn't have a motivation to.
Next kid, who came into high school after AXH was out of the picture, is every bit as bright as the oldest. She's not a straight-A student, but she enjoys school, enjoys learning, often brings up things they are studying over dinner, and is excited about learning -- not about grades. Her motivation is internal; she wants to learn. And so while right now her grades aren't super impressive, she will graduate with better grades than the oldest one, and -- more importantly -- she will have learned more, and she will have grown into a more capable adult than her older brother.
I'm thinking there's a strong parallel there to the difference between the CRAFT program and a 12-step based recover program.
My oldest one was a straight-A student with constant headaches and stomach problems. He wasn't a straight-A student because he loved studying -- he was a straight-A student because he was afraid of the consequences if he came home with a C, because AXH would punish him for it for MONTHS. He knew that. His motivation was all external -- fear of punishment, wanting the reward (which was attention from his father, something he didn't get a lot of). The second AXH no longer had access to his school records, his grades dropped to the point where he was threatened with expulsion from his school. He had zero internal motivation, zero work ethic or responsibility. He was still able to pull As, but he didn't have a motivation to.
Next kid, who came into high school after AXH was out of the picture, is every bit as bright as the oldest. She's not a straight-A student, but she enjoys school, enjoys learning, often brings up things they are studying over dinner, and is excited about learning -- not about grades. Her motivation is internal; she wants to learn. And so while right now her grades aren't super impressive, she will graduate with better grades than the oldest one, and -- more importantly -- she will have learned more, and she will have grown into a more capable adult than her older brother.
I'm thinking there's a strong parallel there to the difference between the CRAFT program and a 12-step based recover program.
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be great to post this in the Newcomers Section above and the Sub Abuse and Alcoholics forums and see what THE ADDICTS have to say and if this ever worked for any of them??
this approach assumes that the addict can be easily swayed by treats or time outs. and that the loved one has the POWER to manipulate and control the addict's use and usage. in my ES&H as an ACOA, addict, recovering addict and loved one of an addict, with time in recovery starting back in 1987 - i have never heard of this type of treatment working for a single individual.
our dog Bucky has on occasion done a little dumpster diving from our kitchen garbage. one day while hank was on the phone, he without thinking dumped fresh chicken bone carcass into the garbage and then wandered off. Bucky was on that like white on rice....CHIKKEN!!!! THE be all to end all, the PRIZE. there was not ONE single treat i could give him as a trade....nor did saying Bad Boy, Release do a damn thing. He wasn't interested in LETTING GO, in fact he growled at me around the bones!!! i had to literally PRY his jaws apart (he's part rottweiler, this was not easy!) and then shake his head so the carcass fell on the floor. i then made the fatal error to try and snatch it up before he went for it and got my hand bit for my trouble. he wasn't trying to bite ME, he wanted the damn chikken!
when i was smoking crack, that damn pipe was glued to my fingers and like the rottweiler and the chicken bones, ain't nobody or nothing was going to pry it out of my hand...or ffer me ANYTHING as a substitute. THERE WASN'T ONE. considering we already kept all the doors locked, every window covered, and most lights off, i'd say we already had enough guilt and shame and feelings of worthlessness going around for a small city.
this approach assumes that the addict can be easily swayed by treats or time outs. and that the loved one has the POWER to manipulate and control the addict's use and usage. in my ES&H as an ACOA, addict, recovering addict and loved one of an addict, with time in recovery starting back in 1987 - i have never heard of this type of treatment working for a single individual.
our dog Bucky has on occasion done a little dumpster diving from our kitchen garbage. one day while hank was on the phone, he without thinking dumped fresh chicken bone carcass into the garbage and then wandered off. Bucky was on that like white on rice....CHIKKEN!!!! THE be all to end all, the PRIZE. there was not ONE single treat i could give him as a trade....nor did saying Bad Boy, Release do a damn thing. He wasn't interested in LETTING GO, in fact he growled at me around the bones!!! i had to literally PRY his jaws apart (he's part rottweiler, this was not easy!) and then shake his head so the carcass fell on the floor. i then made the fatal error to try and snatch it up before he went for it and got my hand bit for my trouble. he wasn't trying to bite ME, he wanted the damn chikken!
when i was smoking crack, that damn pipe was glued to my fingers and like the rottweiler and the chicken bones, ain't nobody or nothing was going to pry it out of my hand...or ffer me ANYTHING as a substitute. THERE WASN'T ONE. considering we already kept all the doors locked, every window covered, and most lights off, i'd say we already had enough guilt and shame and feelings of worthlessness going around for a small city.
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Originally Posted by hopeful4 
Lets see, here is how I feel about it. I am not rewarded for taking care of my children, going to my job, paying all payments and keeping track of our money, lining up everything for our kids practices and events, doing the laundry, mowing the grass, cooking dinner or for anything else I do for my family. I do so b/c it is my responsibility. I do so because it is the right thing to do and my moral obligation to put my children's well being first.
Sorry....this method has always pi$$ed me off. It's like giving a kid a sticker chart for doing good at their chores and school work. Sure it works, but as a grown adult should you really need those things to do the right thing?
Sorry in advance, I am sure this will make someone out there mad, but this is how I feel.
Sorry....this method has always pi$$ed me off. It's like giving a kid a sticker chart for doing good at their chores and school work. Sure it works, but as a grown adult should you really need those things to do the right thing?
Sorry in advance, I am sure this will make someone out there mad, but this is how I feel.
I agree Hopeful; where are my rewards, accolades & pats upon my back? I've been doing the "right" thing for many, many years ... I'll take mine in the form of 20's and 50's. Cash only please.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
I agree Hopeful; where are my rewards, accolades & pats upon my back? I've been doing the "right" thing for many, many years ... I'll take mine in the form of 20's and 50's. Cash only please.
My RAH feels the opposite of that when one of our kids chooses me over him. You reap what you sow.
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Well....I'm all for whatever works for someone. And perhaps this method has worked for some.....which is great. But bottom line.....I think that if love could cure addiction/alcoholism......not one of us would be here.
(and that Boston Terrier(?) picture is about the cutest thing I've seen in a long time! Precious!) I wonder if public shaming stopped him from farting under the covers......)
gentle hugs
ke
(and that Boston Terrier(?) picture is about the cutest thing I've seen in a long time! Precious!) I wonder if public shaming stopped him from farting under the covers......)
gentle hugs
ke
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Originally Posted by Stung
You get rewarded by way of hugs, kisses, "I love you, mom" and the pride you feel when your DD grows and learns in a stable environment that YOU provided her and she KNOWS that you're her rock. My RAH feels the opposite of that when one of our kids chooses me over him. You reap what you sow.
My RAH feels the opposite of that when one of our kids chooses me over him. You reap what you sow.Sure would be nice to have those tangible rewards to offset all the crap I've inherited though..... debt, high insurance premiums, limited free time, etc.
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The first thing that popped into my head when I read this was:
WOW, this is codie heaven! I'm being given permission to run her life by an authority figure who is telling me I am a good person for doing this! Sorry Anvil but this is better than chikken!
All I can say is thank God I never heard of this when I when still living in the crazy house.
Your friend,
WOW, this is codie heaven! I'm being given permission to run her life by an authority figure who is telling me I am a good person for doing this! Sorry Anvil but this is better than chikken!
All I can say is thank God I never heard of this when I when still living in the crazy house.
Your friend,
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(and that Boston Terrier(?) picture is about the cutest thing I've seen in a long time! Precious!) I wonder if public shaming stopped him from farting under the covers......)
Sorry.....I took this waaaay off topic. But I can't resist dogs......
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Originally Posted by Raider
I don't think any amount of shaming can stop me if I want a drink. No rewards or consequences can get in my way. I'm sorry. Maybe it will work for you and yours. But not for this A.
At the end of the day I had to WANT sobriety. And be willing to do ANYTHING to stay that way. If you are not in that mind frame, no matter how good a program is, if I don't want to quit, I'm not going to.
However, this might work for some, if the alcoholic/addict is ready. I don't totally like to discount a program I have never tried. I do believe in keeping an open mind. There are some things you probably can take from this progam that might work for you. I myself do 3 different programs and there are things about them I disagree with but I am not going to let those things stop me from learning and doing the things that are positive for ME.
That really is the key you have to find what works for you and what makes you feel positive.
As for this:
Originally Posted by 9111111
The idea that F&F can "influence" recovery by positive and negative rewards triggered feelings of guilt and shame in me - did I give up to soon, haven't I done enough?
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