9111111

Another thread here about friendships coming to an end made me think about my own friendships, and I figured that while I try to never ask for anything in my personal life, I'm also pretty clueless when it comes to asking for something.

Looking at my close friends I would consider the majority of them as healthy happy normal folks, living their lives and paying their bills.
While for many of them I have become a "go-to person" and source of support, I almost never ask for anything, yet at times feel alienated, angry or disappointed when they "walk all over my feelings and needs" - that of course I never voiced...

What normally keeps me from asking for anything is my strong need to be self-reliant and "owe" nothing to anyone, but also my strong "dislike" for people appearing "needy" and too reliant on me. When their need for closeness beomes too much, I'll smile and wave but don't respond to their requests, go into hiding, retreating to my own space.

Now I have a great friend in my life who is pretty much like me and made me aware of my "behavior" by "putting" me into the spot of the resented "needy" one.
Whenever I ask for time together they react friendly ("smile and wave"), refering to their busy schedule (which I'm not sure is an excuse or not) before going into hiding, yet at the same time offering me to be there for me whenever I need them (sounds very familiar...)

So while I pat myself on the shoulder for "voicing my needs", I'm clueless what to do next, now that my need for closeness has gone unmet.
Do I bring up how much this "smile-wave-run" irks me (not because I want them to make me a priority in their busy schedule, but because I would like an honest answer if they want together time or not), or do I let it go and move them from great friend to casual aquaintance zone?

dandylion

Dear 9111111......I would move them to the casual acquaintance zone. There are tons of people like that!! Keep on truckin'.

dandylion

9111111

Thanks for your reply dandylion - moving on sounds indeed like a good and sane idea and the right thing to do.

I don't know what it is that triggers my desire to rock the boat and call my friend out on their bs.
Maybe after having an active alcoholic in my life I'm still beyond fed up with lies, the stringing along, the silent treatment and my needs going unheard - all things I allowed to happen. Maybe the anger I feel towards my friend is the anger I feel towards myself...

FireSprite

I think this is a great insight. I definitely was happy to recognize this kind of crazy on my side of the street & try to eradicate it. At some point when I noodled over this I found that *I* was expecting others to meet *my* needs, yet I wasn't necessarily expressing/communicating them in a what really could be considered a clear & understandable way. Soooo.... what kind of results could I expect? And why was I *so* angry at them basically doing the same thing?

So, yes, I just started saying exactly what I meant in a "say what you mean, just don't say it mean" way. "Hey friend, I'm just wondering {where we stand} since you haven't really had the time for {us to catch-up}... and I just wanted to be clear and not just make a lot of assumptions."

I try to let them know that I am trying NOT to guess about what is happening in their lives, but am asking in a caring, straight-forward manner. After that I can figure out how to proceed - yes, many, many friendships are just casual & we still do the "ooo, we neeed to get together!" every time we see each other. But I don't expect any more because I *know* that is all that relationship is going to be.

JustAGirl1971

Wow, 911111. I could have written this! It's so me. I guess not so surprising considering that we're both ACOA? I have no clue how to move from that to authentic friendships & relationships as I've not figured it out yet myself. I'm just hoping that the more I work on me, the better I'll get at it.

As for this, I have to ask, is this person really a 'great friend' if he does not have time to spend with you and is not able or willing to make more time for you? Or, do you consider him a great friend because his style is similar to yours (read bold-faced parts above) and by admitting that he's not such a good friend, you are in effect, saying that you're not such a good friend? I don't say this to hurt or offend you. I say it as someone who has done/is doing/does the exact same thing. For a variety of reasons, I've realized that I am not as good of a friend as I thought I was. Part of that may be the people I'm friends with. Part of it, is related to the coping mechanisms that I adapted as a child in a dysfunctional home to protect myself from harm.

I've forgotten, do you attend ACOA meetings? I've only been to a few as right now I'm focusing on the fallout from my marriage to an alcoholic, but this is absolutely my next stop. The few I attended really were awesome.

hopeful4

I have found that very few of my friends can understand unless they have been in a similar situation. I have also found that more people are in a situation with an addict than I ever thought. It is just the unlikely people who you don't guess.

This morning while talking to my daughter's teacher I found out she suffers with great anxiety and has some very similar issues in her life. From looking on the outside, I thought her life was perfect. We talked for a while and made plans to go to dinner soon. She is one great lady, and someone who I never would have dreamed would be going through similar things in life that I am.

I still want my hi and bye friends in my life, I have just accepted that is what they are, and I don't expect any more than that from them.

Of course, at small group at CR is also where I find great support. It is out there, sometimes it is just looking in places you normally would not.

Good Luck and God Bless!

lillamy

I had a discussion like this with a counselor -- actually, it was because I was missing a friend who has gone overseas for 18 months, and it surprised me because it was "just" a friendship, and the emptiness she left when she left was stunning to me.

The counselor said that it's actually a sign of health. Figure that. She said being independent is great -- but that when we create a life where we don't need other people and never ask other people for anything, it's often because we are so convinced other people will let us down that we isolate ourselves.

I had never thought of it that way. I always thought that being strong, independent, and self-reliant was expected of me and that I was the one who was supposed to help other people. So her thinking -- that I wasn't building walls of self-sufficiency to make sure I was safe, but to keep others out... that was interesting to me.

Just wanted to share that in case any of it helps?

JustAGirl1971

Yes, yes, & yes to this!

Ok, so I assumed that I was building walls to keep others out in order to protect myself? I do think that I was independent and self-reliant because that was the expectation. Or, at least what I perceived the expectation was? Growing up in an alcoholic home with neglect, I think we assume it's the expectation. Maybe my parents didn't mean to expect that from me, but they did by leaving me to my own devices. My physical needs were always met - roof, clothing, food, medical care. It was my emotional needs that went unmet. I think I learned that *I* had to take care of those emotional needs and if I let someone in or expected them to take care of those needs, I would be hurt when they inevitably would fail to meet them. Unfortunately, I met those needs for myself by stuffing them. Pretending they didn't exist. It's not surprising that I ended up with an emotionally unavailable man! He's even more emotionally unavailable than I am!

There are so many parts of me that need working on that it can be so overwhelming at times! Especially because I just want to be healthy right now!

Sorry for hijacking your thread, 911111. Thank you for this post.

FireSprite

Hmmmm.... interesting, very interesting. Logical, even.

1. I'm putting this into context with my own life & wondering *if* mine has as much to do with never having had anyone that I felt like I could depend on emotionally to begin with.....so instead of having a deep-seated expectation that they'd let me down, I never expect them to be available in the 1st place? (like JAG1971 - my physical needs were met, but emotionally there was nothing)

I have only ever fully opened up to a few people in my life & only after years & years of building friendship & trust. My parents were not there in this sense due to their own issues & I learned pretty quickly as a child that schoolyard friendships do not typically develop into sustainable relationships. They are more like a rite of passage thing to me - all of my REAL friends have come into my life in ways I wouldn't expect at times I couldn't predict.

2. I always had a similar view on being "strong" - that it was a great character trait that I had developed.... but in my recovery efforts I have started seeing it differently. More like a survival trait I *had* to develop vs. something that I would have chosen under other circumstances. Also like JAG I interpreted it as me locking myself "in", not so much as keeping others "out".

Great food for thought here, thank you!

lillamy

My parents were absolutists -- no drinking whatsoever -- when I was a kid. But my mother was sick for years, basically from I was a baby. So I learned that I got praise from adults around me when I didn't bother her but could do things for myself. I've always prided myself on being independent and not needing other people -- which of course under the surface made me so desperate to find other people who needed me that I ended up dating and marrying needy clingons.

9111111

Wow -lot's of food for thought. Thanks everyone.

Justagirl - after having exaf in my life the question if I am a good friend actually made me laugh. I'm sure it depends on how you define "good friend" , but after almost believing exaf and their entourage that I am a human monster (for letting exaf pick up after themselves), I'm glad to say that based on my standards I believe that I'm a good friend. While I'm not the person that wants / can be called every day / needs 20 texts, likes surprise parties or spending long vacations together as I need space for myself, my friends know that they can rely on me and I will always be trying to make time for them in my life without neglecting my need for me-time.

I strongly believe that everyone (me included) needs people in their lives that they can rely on and trust (yes, trust takes time), but that will also kick their butt when they try to shift responsiblities and avoid consequences of their own actions - and this is where things with exaf got icky.

As for being overly self-reliant, I really think it's a balancing act -people need to be whole in themself and can't hunt for others to complete them. When I feel that people are trying to"utilize" me to complete them/ the way they want to look at themselves / the way they want to be seen by others, I fade or run. I don't think that makes me a bad friend, but I can see how that can trigger people's fear of abandonment or need for control.

The friends in my life (and the friend I'm writing about here included) share their ups and downs with me without needing me to fix them, and are also there for me when I manage to make myself "visible" to them.

In the past I didn't think much about friendships, but had them come into my life.
Exaf was my reminder how fast we can fall for lies and manipulation and question ourselves.
I still question myself, and instead of letting things happen (or not) with this new person in my life I try to apply "standards of normal friendships" and "timetables" to the situation. Not because this friend would give me reason to, but because I'm scared to ever wake up in such a nightmare again.

It's funny, the drama with exaf taught me how hard life can hurt, but that I will still be ok, yet I'm bringing old fear into a new situation. The new friend actually makes time and tries to be there for me. Based on circumstances and logistics my request for more "face-time" was as logical as asking a sea-lion to ride a bicycle to show me that they really care.

9111111

No worries, no hurt or offense at all! What makes you believe that you aren't a good friend`if you don't mind me asking?

9111111

For me being an introvert it is that people actually tire me out (hence the need for me time), and that by being very self-reliant I can be selective about who I let into my life and how much time I devote to them. So yes, it is a way to keep people away, but also the only way to keep myself from burning out.

9111111

@ JAG: Haha, thanks for absolutely not hijacking my post! Your posts turn my brain into a knot - it a very good way

JustAGirl1971

First of all, I apologize, 911111. For some reason, I thought you were an ACOA. In re-reading your introductory post, I see that's not the case (should have read that before posting!) Just ignore all of the ACOA stuff I mentioned since that doesn't apply to you. I knew you had issues with a friend, but I think I got confused on some other posts and assumed the EXAF you referred to was your alcoholic father with whom you had no contact.

I would agree with what you said below, that people need to be whole/complete (& by extension, healthy) in order for a friendship to fully function. This is part of why I am not a 'good' friend. I am not whole or healthy but I am working on it!

I also do not think needing time to oneself, or separation due to time/space preclude being a good friend. I think it's more about investing the time and emotional energy required in a manner that works for both parties.

I wouldn't say that I'm a bad, or horrible friend, just not as good of a friend as I want to be. I definitely tend to emotionally distance myself from my friends as discussed previously. I also am too quick to rush in and 'help' rather than allow them the dignity to figure things out for themselves. I'm trying to learn not to give my advice or opinion unless specifically requested but instead to actively listen. That's very difficult for me because my family very strongly believes in sharing their opinion with everyone. I'm biting my tongue a lot. Aside from that, right now I have absolutely no emotional energy to spare... it's all been sucked into my own drama. And, the truth is, most of my friendships are with drama llamas (as Stung described in her birds of a feather post.) For now, my focus is on working on me and being the best mom that I can be. When I'm feeling stronger on both of those fronts, I will start cultivating healthy friendships.

9111111

JAG1971, I'm not ACOA but I can relate to quite a few of the topics they discuss, so you got that quite right.

Myself - as most of my male friends - likes to give unrequested advice too. I actually don't mind it too much when it happens to myself (well, it does when I just want a pitty party), and as long as people back off when I tell them that I want pitty and not suggestions (that's something I luckily re-learned again) I'm fine with it. To me it shows that people care and not so much that they think that I'm a tool - but maybe that's just crazy thinking on my side.

With my old and close friends I know that they want me to be my best, but love me the way I am. Sometimes it is very hard for me to not be the best in everything, so that's my issue, not theirs. I think you give very good advice here and show great compassion for people without imposing your opinion on them - attributes that make a good and healthy friend to me.

From breaking up the insane situation with my ex alcoholic friend I know what a drama show it is, and I can very much relate to how difficult this must be with a husband and shared finances and children. You have achieved so much healthy change already and you are a great mom to your kids. This would be exhausting for everyone, but if you got a spare minute be proud of yourself. Ways to go!

JustAGirl1971

Thanks, 911111. I think it's a common trait for men to want to 'fix' or help. Many of my male coworkers have offered to help with various things... from 'mentoring' my boys, to changing furnace filters, or minor car repairs. I'm trying to learn how to take care of those things myself; however, I am taking some of them up on offers to show me how to do things (like change the headlight on my car.) I think it's part of the 'protector' gene that many men are hardwired with. I don't mind people giving me their unsolicited opinion, either, as long as they respect my right not to follow it and they can back off/let it go when I don't want to hear it. Problem is, in my family, there is no backing off and everyone thinks their opinion is the *right* opinion. I really do not like this trait in my family and I want to avoid doing this myself (hence why I'm biting my tongue.) Thank you for your compliments. Your posts are always thought provoking