Self-Sufficiency vs. Enabling
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Self-Sufficiency vs. Enabling
Pippi's thread and my own musings have me wondering. When divorcing an A, at what point does becoming/being self-sufficient for you & your children's sake, cross the line and become enabling for the A? I mean, yes, I do believe in self-sufficiency. I, personally, do not want to rely on another person financially (including & especially my STBXAH.) But, at the same time, the children are the A's responsibility just as much as they are the ex-spouse's responsibility.
It's all well and good to say: be self sufficient, budget based on your income, do not rely on the child support (especially since it's quite likely with an A that it will disappear at some point.) But, while you are receiving the child support, it's hard not to use it. Ok, you could bank it, put it in college funds, etc. However, if you spend it in any way, even on say child-centered activities like dance class, etc, aren't you relying on it to pay those classes? Or, do you only do the classes if you can afford it without the child support (in which case you still have this extra money you aren't spending whether you call it 'your money' or 'child support'.)
Obviously, I think self-sufficiency will be easier/quicker for some than others, depending on the circumstances (SAHP vs WP, ages of kids, etc.)
And, just because I found this and thought it was kinda cool: self-sufficiency calculator for USA.
It's all well and good to say: be self sufficient, budget based on your income, do not rely on the child support (especially since it's quite likely with an A that it will disappear at some point.) But, while you are receiving the child support, it's hard not to use it. Ok, you could bank it, put it in college funds, etc. However, if you spend it in any way, even on say child-centered activities like dance class, etc, aren't you relying on it to pay those classes? Or, do you only do the classes if you can afford it without the child support (in which case you still have this extra money you aren't spending whether you call it 'your money' or 'child support'.)
Obviously, I think self-sufficiency will be easier/quicker for some than others, depending on the circumstances (SAHP vs WP, ages of kids, etc.)
And, just because I found this and thought it was kinda cool: self-sufficiency calculator for USA.
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Child support is just that. Support for the child(ren). It should be used to support and benefit the children (be that as part payment for house, food, clothing or extra activities).
I think that alimony would fit more of your scenario.
My T made the statement early on in my secessions that rAH's sobriety does not relieve him from his financial obligations. IMO neither should his continued drinking.
I know that all that is mute if they (A's or rA's) skirt their responsibilities (financial or others).
I think that alimony would fit more of your scenario.
My T made the statement early on in my secessions that rAH's sobriety does not relieve him from his financial obligations. IMO neither should his continued drinking.
I know that all that is mute if they (A's or rA's) skirt their responsibilities (financial or others).
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For the record, my STBXAH and I are working on our divorce settlement and the question of child support is where I'm stuck. Finances have been a major issue during the last few years of our marriage. To be honest, I am just sick of having our finances intertwined. The less dependable he became financially, the greater my resentments. I am finally letting those go and do not want them to resurface 
They drain me and are destructive to my emotional well being. I really believe I would prefer not to have child support.
His job pays low enough that it would be extremely difficult for him to live off his remaining income if he has to pay child support at the level my attorney says is appropriate (based on state calculators.) I know that is NOT MY PROBLEM; however, it kind of is. DD plans to spend time with him.... so where he lives affects her, and if ds ever chooses to see his father again, him as well. We do have some non-liquid investments that we could swap... me keep in exchange for AH not paying child support. And, no my attorney does not like that. But, from a $$ standpoint, the numbers would align closely enough and my state is pretty hands off so chances are good that a judge would agree.
I can afford to support my kids. Yes, we'll have to make adjustments. May have to sell the house and move into a cheaper neighborhood. Maybe not.
So, is it enabling to do a property swap for child support? I wouldn't be able to liquidate these investments quickly.... could take months or years BUT I could liquidate them if needed and my parents would help in the interim, if needed.
Anyone else do this?
They drain me and are destructive to my emotional well being. I really believe I would prefer not to have child support. His job pays low enough that it would be extremely difficult for him to live off his remaining income if he has to pay child support at the level my attorney says is appropriate (based on state calculators.) I know that is NOT MY PROBLEM; however, it kind of is. DD plans to spend time with him.... so where he lives affects her, and if ds ever chooses to see his father again, him as well. We do have some non-liquid investments that we could swap... me keep in exchange for AH not paying child support. And, no my attorney does not like that. But, from a $$ standpoint, the numbers would align closely enough and my state is pretty hands off so chances are good that a judge would agree.
I can afford to support my kids. Yes, we'll have to make adjustments. May have to sell the house and move into a cheaper neighborhood. Maybe not.
So, is it enabling to do a property swap for child support? I wouldn't be able to liquidate these investments quickly.... could take months or years BUT I could liquidate them if needed and my parents would help in the interim, if needed.
Anyone else do this?
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Originally Posted by Lyssy 
Child support is just that. Support for the child(ren). It should be used to support and benefit the children (be that as part payment for house, food, clothing or extra activities).
I think that alimony would fit more of your scenario.
My T made the statement early on in my secessions that rAH's sobriety does not relieve him from his financial obligations. IMO neither should his continued drinking.
I know that all that is mute if they (A's or rA's) skirt their responsibilities (financial or others).
I think that alimony would fit more of your scenario.
My T made the statement early on in my secessions that rAH's sobriety does not relieve him from his financial obligations. IMO neither should his continued drinking.
I know that all that is mute if they (A's or rA's) skirt their responsibilities (financial or others).
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This is a good topic.
I believe in any divorce the mom/wife has to start becoming self-sufficient. Yes, there is child support when there are children, with some drinker fathers being more responsible on that front than others.
I think people should plan for the worst, and hope for the best. Planning for the worst is that we never know when someone is going to be fired, quit, or die, maybe not from drinking--maybe from a sober car accident completely another driver's fault. So future earnings of an ex can only be relied upon up to a point. There needs to be a back-up plan in case of any of the above.
What I see sometimes, (and I am not talking about Pippi because I don't know her situation) is that some people are resistant to being self-sufficient. I know I was after my divorce. It's a form of denial, just like a drink!
Another way to look at it is-- is more money in my life really going to hurt? Maybe I'm waiting, like Pippi, for a different outcome. Maybe I'm somebody else, but scared to work again. Maybe, I am not scared, but I don't want to work again, or trying to see how long I can go without working. I see that sometimes, and I am not referencing anyone in particular.
When I didn't want to get my act together and get on the ball financially, I resisted and was in denial, and afraid to make it on my own. Sometimes we make excuses why we don't return to working, just like a drinker making excuses why they don't stop. On a more positive note, those excuses may come from feeling simply scared to work again, and that can be overcome and we can once again feel good about ourselves and strong once we show ourselves that we can do it. The trick there is--we have to be productive financially before those good feelings about ourselves happen. So the strength to return to productivity has to come initially from pushing ourselves, because the rewarding feelings don't come until after productivity.
I personally believe that when a woman divorces she needs to start taking care of herself, and that definitely includes earning money. Even if she married a rich man and ends up with a settlement she can live off forever, does it really feel good to just coast along instead of contributing to one's own well-being and productivity? For me, even if something like that were to happen, unless I was at retirement age, I would feel much better about myself if I was doing something productive that earned money so that I wouldn't feel for the rest of my life that others were taking care of me. I don't like it when people have a sense of entitlement that others are supposed to take of them. That's what we see with some alcoholics, isn't it?
I believe in any divorce the mom/wife has to start becoming self-sufficient. Yes, there is child support when there are children, with some drinker fathers being more responsible on that front than others.
I think people should plan for the worst, and hope for the best. Planning for the worst is that we never know when someone is going to be fired, quit, or die, maybe not from drinking--maybe from a sober car accident completely another driver's fault. So future earnings of an ex can only be relied upon up to a point. There needs to be a back-up plan in case of any of the above.
What I see sometimes, (and I am not talking about Pippi because I don't know her situation) is that some people are resistant to being self-sufficient. I know I was after my divorce. It's a form of denial, just like a drink!
Another way to look at it is-- is more money in my life really going to hurt? Maybe I'm waiting, like Pippi, for a different outcome. Maybe I'm somebody else, but scared to work again. Maybe, I am not scared, but I don't want to work again, or trying to see how long I can go without working. I see that sometimes, and I am not referencing anyone in particular.
When I didn't want to get my act together and get on the ball financially, I resisted and was in denial, and afraid to make it on my own. Sometimes we make excuses why we don't return to working, just like a drinker making excuses why they don't stop. On a more positive note, those excuses may come from feeling simply scared to work again, and that can be overcome and we can once again feel good about ourselves and strong once we show ourselves that we can do it. The trick there is--we have to be productive financially before those good feelings about ourselves happen. So the strength to return to productivity has to come initially from pushing ourselves, because the rewarding feelings don't come until after productivity.
I personally believe that when a woman divorces she needs to start taking care of herself, and that definitely includes earning money. Even if she married a rich man and ends up with a settlement she can live off forever, does it really feel good to just coast along instead of contributing to one's own well-being and productivity? For me, even if something like that were to happen, unless I was at retirement age, I would feel much better about myself if I was doing something productive that earned money so that I wouldn't feel for the rest of my life that others were taking care of me. I don't like it when people have a sense of entitlement that others are supposed to take of them. That's what we see with some alcoholics, isn't it?
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Although we don't have children - I can SO relate to the resentment surrounding the finances. I too am so tired of being financial entwined with him. I am working on that issue myself!
I don't have any direct advise with regard to your situation - however it may not be up to you as many judges will court order CS regardless of what has been agreed between the divorcing parties. They often don't consider the actual "income" of the parent responsible for CS but the potential of income.
Personally I would have to rely completely on myself. Any CS actually received would have to be viewed as a blessing (and maybe go for a special trip with the kids or towards a college fund).
Could you make do with only your income?
I don't have any direct advise with regard to your situation - however it may not be up to you as many judges will court order CS regardless of what has been agreed between the divorcing parties. They often don't consider the actual "income" of the parent responsible for CS but the potential of income.
Personally I would have to rely completely on myself. Any CS actually received would have to be viewed as a blessing (and maybe go for a special trip with the kids or towards a college fund).
Could you make do with only your income?
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I guess I do not see the Versus part of this.
Being Self-Sufficient AND Supporting (or getting support for) Kids ARE BOTH Good Things, right?
Yunno the Eastern Philosophy thing --
Between Two Goods -- Choose Both.
(and the converse, Between Two Evils -- Choose Neither).
IF you have both Self-Sufficiency AND Support . . . THEN the worst you are going to wind up with is SURPLUS. I am not seeing ANY downside to this. So you do a College Fund (or therapy fund, around here) for the kids.
*We* are not drunks, right? I mean we are not somehow compelled to consume or drink the whole bottle, right?
Maybe that is residual Stinkin-Thinkin from being around A's? Dunno.
What is not to love in surplus?
You know the somewhat famous Charles Dickens / David Copperfield quote . . .
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."
It tends to be true.
Wilkins Micawber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Being Self-Sufficient AND Supporting (or getting support for) Kids ARE BOTH Good Things, right?
Yunno the Eastern Philosophy thing --
Between Two Goods -- Choose Both.
(and the converse, Between Two Evils -- Choose Neither).
IF you have both Self-Sufficiency AND Support . . . THEN the worst you are going to wind up with is SURPLUS. I am not seeing ANY downside to this. So you do a College Fund (or therapy fund, around here) for the kids.
*We* are not drunks, right? I mean we are not somehow compelled to consume or drink the whole bottle, right?
Maybe that is residual Stinkin-Thinkin from being around A's? Dunno.
What is not to love in surplus?
You know the somewhat famous Charles Dickens / David Copperfield quote . . .
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery."
It tends to be true.
Wilkins Micawber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Originally Posted by Lyssy
Although we don't have children - I can SO relate to the resentment surrounding the finances. I too am so tired of being financial entwined with him. I am working on that issue myself!
I don't have any direct advise with regard to your situation - however it may not be up to you as many judges will court order CS regardless of what has been agreed between the divorcing parties. They often don't consider the actual "income" of the parent responsible for CS but the potential of income.
Personally I would have to rely completely on myself. Any CS actually received would have to be viewed as a blessing (and maybe go for a special trip with the kids or towards a college fund).
Could you make do with only your income?
I don't have any direct advise with regard to your situation - however it may not be up to you as many judges will court order CS regardless of what has been agreed between the divorcing parties. They often don't consider the actual "income" of the parent responsible for CS but the potential of income.
Personally I would have to rely completely on myself. Any CS actually received would have to be viewed as a blessing (and maybe go for a special trip with the kids or towards a college fund).
Could you make do with only your income?
My state is actually very hands off. I have a good friend in a similar circumstance who divorced his wife and did not request nor receive child support. He only had one teen though, and we have two. Plus, I realize it depends on which judge hears our case.
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Originally Posted by Hammer
I
IF you have both Self-Sufficiency AND Support . . . THEN the worst you are going to wind up with is SURPLUS. I am not seeing ANY downside to this. So you do a College Fund (or therapy fund, around here) for the kids.
IF you have both Self-Sufficiency AND Support . . . THEN the worst you are going to wind up with is SURPLUS. I am not seeing ANY downside to this. So you do a College Fund (or therapy fund, around here) for the kids.
I do not want bitterness and resentment in my life. Idk, I'm just on step 1... so maybe when I'm working/living the steps, I won't have to worry about the resentments so much?
Originally Posted by Hammer
I*We* are not drunks, right? I mean we are not somehow compelled to consume or drink the whole bottle, right?
Maybe that is residual Stinkin-Thinkin from being around A's? Dunno.
Maybe that is residual Stinkin-Thinkin from being around A's? Dunno.
Especially when it comes to excess money. Lots of shop-a-holics and hoarders in my family. We're talking serious shoppers here. Like the kind that receive phone calls from stores every time new merchandise comes in.
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does it really feel good to just coast along instead of contributing to one's own well-being and productivity?
I agree with Blueskies that preparing for the worst and hoping for the best may be the wisest course of action.
I haven't had the independence/enabling quandary regarding child support since I don't get any, but while we still had shared custody, I was contemplating a similar issue regarding whose care the kids were in. He fought hard to share custody, but then would call me and say he had to work weekends when he had them (which was a lie) and could I please take them? It was a problem for me, because of course I wanted to -- I wanted the kids with me as much as possible -- but at the same time, by becoming his babysitter when he wanted to go out on weekends, I was allowing him to be a parent only when he wanted to. I felt like I was saving him from having to take full responsibility. That's sort of similar to what you're talking about, right?
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My state is actually very hands off. I have a good friend in a similar circumstance who divorced his wife and did not request nor receive child support. He only had one teen though, and we have two. Plus, I realize it depends on which judge hears our case.
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since you seem to be conflicted, and emotionally attached to whether or not he will be able to make child support payments on a regular consistent basis long term, why not set up an account for the kids, college fund, etc, and put anything you do get in there? that way you aren't counting on it (ie to pay for music classes) and any funds you do get WILL go towards the children ultimately, but you won't be dealing with the "where's the damn check dude?" experience.
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Originally Posted by lillamy
I haven't had the independence/enabling quandary regarding child support since I don't get any, but while we still had shared custody, I was contemplating a similar issue regarding whose care the kids were in. He fought hard to share custody, but then would call me and say he had to work weekends when he had them (which was a lie) and could I please take them? It was a problem for me, because of course I wanted to -- I wanted the kids with me as much as possible -- but at the same time, by becoming his babysitter when he wanted to go out on weekends, I was allowing him to be a parent only when he wanted to. I felt like I was saving him from having to take full responsibility. That's sort of similar to what you're talking about, right?
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
since you seem to be conflicted, and emotionally attached to whether or not he will be able to make child support payments on a regular consistent basis long term, why not set up an account for the kids, college fund, etc, and put anything you do get in there? that way you aren't counting on it (ie to pay for music classes) and any funds you do get WILL go towards the children ultimately, but you won't be dealing with the "where's the damn check dude?" experience.
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I was in a similar situation when I divorced, and had similar concerns.
In the end the children were awarded a relatively small child support payment, I take care of insurance, and we split medical expenses after I pay the first $250.
In reality he rarely pays the child support, I've never even asked for half the medical, and I'm sure now that he is working his insurance would be cheaper than mine.
I had oceans of resentment over finances when we were married but I really don't over the child support. I moved and arranged my life so that I didn't need the child support for basic needs of food and shelter. When i get it we are able to get some extra or I spend it on clothes etc. and it really really helps.
I am however reaching the point where I am ready to go back to the state and ask for it to be taken from his paycheck (now that he is back in our state) if not some of the back support too. I'd be willing to 'forgive' the support for the two years he spent in rehab and half way houses but since then he's been working full time at a fairly decent job - he should be paying. He owes it. They deserve it. I shouldn't be giving it away.
I do see it as enabling to just let it go. I do now. I was a little more confused on that in the beginning. He is a parent just like I am. He is just as responsible for them. I mean - not really - but he should be and it isn't up to me to relieve him of that.
In the end the children were awarded a relatively small child support payment, I take care of insurance, and we split medical expenses after I pay the first $250.
In reality he rarely pays the child support, I've never even asked for half the medical, and I'm sure now that he is working his insurance would be cheaper than mine.
I had oceans of resentment over finances when we were married but I really don't over the child support. I moved and arranged my life so that I didn't need the child support for basic needs of food and shelter. When i get it we are able to get some extra or I spend it on clothes etc. and it really really helps.
I am however reaching the point where I am ready to go back to the state and ask for it to be taken from his paycheck (now that he is back in our state) if not some of the back support too. I'd be willing to 'forgive' the support for the two years he spent in rehab and half way houses but since then he's been working full time at a fairly decent job - he should be paying. He owes it. They deserve it. I shouldn't be giving it away.
I do see it as enabling to just let it go. I do now. I was a little more confused on that in the beginning. He is a parent just like I am. He is just as responsible for them. I mean - not really - but he should be and it isn't up to me to relieve him of that.
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I have absolutely no advice but I'm really glad that your husband is being so amicable about everything rather than trying to fight you. I hope his transition out of your home goes smoothly for your family.
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I guess I do not see the Versus part of this.
Being Self-Sufficient AND Supporting (or getting support for) Kids ARE BOTH Good Things, right?
Yunno the Eastern Philosophy thing --
Between Two Goods -- Choose Both.
(and the converse, Between Two Evils -- Choose Neither).
IF you have both Self-Sufficiency AND Support . . . THEN the worst you are going to wind up with is SURPLUS. I am not seeing ANY downside to this. So you do a College Fund (or therapy fund, around here) for the kids.
I agree with Hammer. I think you are clouding the financial issues by looking at them through the perspective of your emotions.
Money is money. Financial arrangements need to be made based on what it costs to raise two kids in a healthy environment. Both parents have obligations to do so, whether or not they are divorced or together.
Someone here said that child support belongs to the children, and I think that is very true. It is not yours to negotiate away or to give away.
Nor is it yours to worry about where your STBXAH will live or whether he will have enough money to live on. Those are HIS issues to deal with, as he wishes. Not yours to worry about. That's what people on SoberRecovery mean when they say "walk your own side of the street".
Your feelings, including resentment, feeling entrapped and entwined, you are entitled to feel all of that and much more. But don't try to work out -or predict - your feelings through the financial aspects of a divorce or through child support.
As to taking the property, my experience was having part of my divorce settlement being my XAH and I were to sell our joint home and split the proceeds. That became very problematic since the house did not sell. It required quite a bit of repairs and renovations to go on the market, and it took quite a bit of money to keep it up while it was for sale. We had to work together to get the house ready to go on the market. We had to agree on what needed to be done and what didn't. That can be very problematic. While your divorce is amicable now, it may not always be.
In addition, the value of the house dropped substantially from the time I first filed for divorce and when the divorce actually got done. So, trading cash assets for an estimated property value done at one point in time can result in quite a loss.
Eventually my XH decided that he wanted to stay in the house, and he took a loan and paid me off for my part of it and deeded another property solely to me. I didn't get what I had hoped to get - neither of us did - but it was fair and it was done.
ShootingStar1
Being Self-Sufficient AND Supporting (or getting support for) Kids ARE BOTH Good Things, right?
Yunno the Eastern Philosophy thing --
Between Two Goods -- Choose Both.
(and the converse, Between Two Evils -- Choose Neither).
IF you have both Self-Sufficiency AND Support . . . THEN the worst you are going to wind up with is SURPLUS. I am not seeing ANY downside to this. So you do a College Fund (or therapy fund, around here) for the kids.
I agree with Hammer. I think you are clouding the financial issues by looking at them through the perspective of your emotions.
Money is money. Financial arrangements need to be made based on what it costs to raise two kids in a healthy environment. Both parents have obligations to do so, whether or not they are divorced or together.
Someone here said that child support belongs to the children, and I think that is very true. It is not yours to negotiate away or to give away.
Nor is it yours to worry about where your STBXAH will live or whether he will have enough money to live on. Those are HIS issues to deal with, as he wishes. Not yours to worry about. That's what people on SoberRecovery mean when they say "walk your own side of the street".
Your feelings, including resentment, feeling entrapped and entwined, you are entitled to feel all of that and much more. But don't try to work out -or predict - your feelings through the financial aspects of a divorce or through child support.
As to taking the property, my experience was having part of my divorce settlement being my XAH and I were to sell our joint home and split the proceeds. That became very problematic since the house did not sell. It required quite a bit of repairs and renovations to go on the market, and it took quite a bit of money to keep it up while it was for sale. We had to work together to get the house ready to go on the market. We had to agree on what needed to be done and what didn't. That can be very problematic. While your divorce is amicable now, it may not always be.
In addition, the value of the house dropped substantially from the time I first filed for divorce and when the divorce actually got done. So, trading cash assets for an estimated property value done at one point in time can result in quite a loss.
Eventually my XH decided that he wanted to stay in the house, and he took a loan and paid me off for my part of it and deeded another property solely to me. I didn't get what I had hoped to get - neither of us did - but it was fair and it was done.
ShootingStar1
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You know one of your triggers is the financial impact of his drinking. You know if his drinking continues, the monthly child support likely will be a wait and see sort of thing. Every month you'll have to handle that trigger issue. Did it come? Is it late? What is the back balance now?
To let that go, I'd go with the non-liquid investments up front if it is a reasonable swap. I sure hope things continue amicably. That is nice to hear!
To let that go, I'd go with the non-liquid investments up front if it is a reasonable swap. I sure hope things continue amicably. That is nice to hear!
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File for child support through the state. Let them deal with it.
And the child support is the children's monies. It's NOT yours to give away! How would you feel if someone said, Well... JustAGirl worked for this money but we're not going to pay it because she's got a second job and is doing well for herself. Bottom line is, it's not your call and you should not deny your child/ren support from the other parent for any reason. If you don't want to spend it, bank it for the kids!!! If he can't pay it, that's not your problem! If he has to eat hot dogs over a BIC lighter, that's not your problem!
You need to stop worrying about him and what he can and can not do for himself. Let the state tell him what he's going to pay!
And the child support is the children's monies. It's NOT yours to give away! How would you feel if someone said, Well... JustAGirl worked for this money but we're not going to pay it because she's got a second job and is doing well for herself. Bottom line is, it's not your call and you should not deny your child/ren support from the other parent for any reason. If you don't want to spend it, bank it for the kids!!! If he can't pay it, that's not your problem! If he has to eat hot dogs over a BIC lighter, that's not your problem!
You need to stop worrying about him and what he can and can not do for himself. Let the state tell him what he's going to pay!
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If I understand correctly, she isn't "giving it away", but she is wanting to take
hard assets worth roughly the same value as the total (over years of payments) cash value of child support up front,
because she is concerned STBXH will not keep up with payments, which would make
her upset and angry even if she doesn't need the money to survive.
I would take the assets if the state allows if you know you and your kids will be OK until they are liquidated.
That way his downhill drinking / actions are no longer a variable you have to contend with.
If the value is roughly the same, you will have the money and peace of mind. That sounds win-win to me.
You don't need the cash flow at the moment but you have, in effect, a trust fund for your kids.
hard assets worth roughly the same value as the total (over years of payments) cash value of child support up front,
because she is concerned STBXH will not keep up with payments, which would make
her upset and angry even if she doesn't need the money to survive.
I would take the assets if the state allows if you know you and your kids will be OK until they are liquidated.
That way his downhill drinking / actions are no longer a variable you have to contend with.
If the value is roughly the same, you will have the money and peace of mind. That sounds win-win to me.
You don't need the cash flow at the moment but you have, in effect, a trust fund for your kids.
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