Where is the Compassion?

Old 02-05-2014, 06:11 AM
  # 61 (permalink)  
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
Hmm, guess I have made (another) crazy mess of this thread, so I might as well continue on it . . . .

Trying to make some sense of what the kids and I have been through this last year.

This is about all the Lying that got the "Lack of Compassion" started -- Pondering this over on bpdfamily.com, but any here that may have some insight, I would more than welcome your thoughts

Btw Hammer (here, me) is the same as Somewhere (there, as in Somewhere Over the Rainbow).

=======================

Is "Paint You Black" Lying a Form of Abuse?

Hammer/Somewhere:

okay.

This is a really ******** question.

Searched a few times just so I could avoid asking it.

The "paint you black" lying.

Is that a form of abuse?

Thanks.

----------------------

MR: I think that's a very reasonable and very valid question, not ******** at all. Often wondered the same thing myself.

I guess if it's used as a form of manipulation it could be considered as emotional abuse.

If it affects you professionally or your reputation then it can be considered as slander.

A really good question to ask

----------------

Hammer/Somewhere:

not too concerned regarding Slander, etc.

After a while most folks seem to figure out it is nutty.

I guess my question is more like intentional culpability.

I understand that it is the product of a crazed mind. I get that.

But is the intent to harm others / *us* or are they just trying to "make up facts" (lying in less kind terms) to match what they may be feeling?

I guess in my pondering -- if it is just crazy stuff from a crazy mind -- it is sort of like a Noble Savage thing.

HOWEVER, if it is done with the intent of harm -- it is abusive?

Dunno.


----------------

MT: They paint you black, but the lying about you part to friends, family, co-workers, therapists etc... Is called a smear campaign, villification campaign or distortion campaign and can be forms of baiting, projection, and proxy recruitment.

Is that what you mean by painted black lying?

----------------

Hammer/Somewhere: Yes. (and thank you for refining and much improving my question)

Is THAT Abuse?
Hammer is offline  
Old 02-05-2014, 07:40 AM
  # 62 (permalink)  
Member
 
MissFixit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
Hmm, guess I have made (another) crazy mess of this thread, so I might as well continue on it . . . .

Trying to make some sense of what the kids and I have been through this last year.

This is about all the Lying that got the "Lack of Compassion" started -- Pondering this over on bpdfamily.com, but any here that may have some insight, I would more than welcome your thoughts

Btw Hammer (here, me) is the same as Somewhere (there, as in Somewhere Over the Rainbow).

=======================

Is "Paint You Black" Lying a Form of Abuse?

Hammer/Somewhere:

okay.

This is a really ******** question.

Searched a few times just so I could avoid asking it.

The "paint you black" lying.

Is that a form of abuse?

Thanks.

----------------------

MR: I think that's a very reasonable and very valid question, not ******** at all. Often wondered the same thing myself.

I guess if it's used as a form of manipulation it could be considered as emotional abuse.

If it affects you professionally or your reputation then it can be considered as slander.

A really good question to ask

----------------

Hammer/Somewhere:

not too concerned regarding Slander, etc.

After a while most folks seem to figure out it is nutty.

I guess my question is more like intentional culpability.

I understand that it is the product of a crazed mind. I get that.

But is the intent to harm others / *us* or are they just trying to "make up facts" (lying in less kind terms) to match what they may be feeling?

I guess in my pondering -- if it is just crazy stuff from a crazy mind -- it is sort of like a Noble Savage thing.

HOWEVER, if it is done with the intent of harm -- it is abusive?

Dunno.


----------------

MT: They paint you black, but the lying about you part to friends, family, co-workers, therapists etc... Is called a smear campaign, villification campaign or distortion campaign and can be forms of baiting, projection, and proxy recruitment.

Is that what you mean by painted black lying?

----------------

Hammer/Somewhere: Yes. (and thank you for refining and much improving my question)

Is THAT Abuse?

I think campaigning against you is abuse.

I have written about this before, but my ex and his wife did a BIG smear campaign against me after I found out about them cheating. It was a demonization and vilification of me to ANYONE who would listen. It has affected me professionally and personally and my therapist at the time asked if I wanted to sue for defamation of character. I did not as I am the daughter of a lawyer and know how those cases tend to go down and no one gets away unscathed. I also believed and it seems to be true that their crazy is revealed to others over time. However, some people are crazy too and accept their crazy.

Is she just lying about you or lying about your kids? If she is lying about your kids, they need to be away from her ASAP. If she is just lying about you, they need to be away from her at some point. It is really unhealthy and damaging for them to grow up with mom trashing or demonizing dad to people.
MissFixit is offline  
Old 02-05-2014, 09:06 AM
  # 63 (permalink)  
Not waving, but drowning
 
Danae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 423
"I pointed out that if she would *just* cover some of her own bills it would be helpful. Such as her phone. Upshot -- we put her phone on her own account. Probably saves me about $500 to $800 per year. This is like dealing with a teenager-for-life.

[but see, now my Compassion is slipping again. ]"
__________________

Hi Hammer,

See, this passage of yours above is where I get in trouble with the word compassion. I don't think your compassion is slipping. (OK, and maybe you were joking? But with a core of truth?).

I think you are navigating a crazy set-up. And you are used to this craziness. Why doesn't she have to pay her way?

To put it another way, would it be more compassionate for your kids (your priority #1) to force her to pay more of the expenses? Might you all benefit from that? Where does more compassion for her mean less compassion for your kids and yourself? (Not just in this instance of finances, but overall in family life).

I think that's one of the tightropes people around here walk. Too much compassion starts to take up territory that we need for ourselves. That's a reason this is such a hot-button issue?

Also, on the question of lying as abuse--it may not be intended as abuse, but if you experience it that way, its good enough for me!

Ok, this is getting garbled. A clear sign I need to go out and shovel the (seemingly) endless supply of snow
Danae is offline  
Old 02-05-2014, 09:29 AM
  # 64 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
Let me ask you this, what if it isn't abuse and you just flat out don't like being lied to?

Regardless if it's abusive or not it doesn't validate/invalidate your feelings of hating the lies. My AH lies to me too, but I don't think his lies are because of ME, his lies for him and they serve his purposes of making himself feel whatever way he needs to feel in that moment of deceit. Even when he lied to other people about me it was never really about ME (although I made him go back and tell our friends and family that he was a liar and that kind of made me feel better or at least push it to the back of my mind.)

If your wife is telling your kids lies about you though, that's a completely different ballgame and yes, I would definitely label that as abuse towards you AND your kids.
Stung is offline  
Old 02-05-2014, 09:46 AM
  # 65 (permalink)  
Member
 
hopeful4's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
Amen!!!!

This is sort of where I am. Look away from the addiction and labeling, I just don't like being lied to. I don't lie and won't tolerate it any longer. I am not going to WASTE the next 20 years of my life trying to figure someone else out. I want someone with morals that match mine. I don't have to tolerate it if it is abuse or not. I have every single right to expect those in my own home to tell me the truth. I live that way and want my childrent to live that way, why expect any less from their father, my husband. Nope.


Originally Posted by Stung View Post
Let me ask you this, what if it isn't abuse and you just flat out don't like being lied to?

Regardless if it's abusive or not it doesn't validate/invalidate your feelings of hating the lies. My AH lies to me too, but I don't think his lies are because of ME, his lies for him and they serve his purposes of making himself feel whatever way he needs to feel in that moment of deceit. Even when he lied to other people about me it was never really about ME (although I made him go back and tell our friends and family that he was a liar and that kind of made me feel better or at least push it to the back of my mind.)

If your wife is telling your kids lies about you though, that's a completely different ballgame and yes, I would definitely label that as abuse towards you AND your kids.
hopeful4 is offline  
Old 02-05-2014, 10:19 AM
  # 66 (permalink)  
Member
 
FireSprite's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
IDK. I'm not educated enough about BDP.

It *seems* as though any kind of purposeful lying in an effort to malign your character to friends, family, co-workers etc. would definitely qualify as abusive *to you* & collaterally, to your kids.

It's hard to step back from something that big & be able to not take it personally, even though it is, of course, all down to HER & HER issues & nothing to do with you at all.

If it's a compulsion she can't "control" due to her mental disorder, she may not see it as abuse.

And that doesn't matter - it's how you & the kids interpret & are affected by her behavior that matters. Kinda like "they aren't drinking AT you" doesn't change the reality of living day-to-day with an alcoholic, or excuse their resulting behavior.

Upshot -- we put her phone on her own account. Probably saves me about $500 to $800 per year. This is like dealing with a teenager-for-life.

[but see, now my Compassion is slipping again. ]
Is it? I'm not so sure. Is it discompassionate to have reasonable {financial} boundaries like this? To me, the fact that you consider her POV (the teen for life) shows compassion/empathy... you "get" where she is coming from. That doesn't mean you have to give in to every difference of opinion in order to remain compassionate, does it? Especially when it negatively impacts the kids?


I'm learning a lot in this thread....
FireSprite is offline  
Old 02-05-2014, 12:00 PM
  # 67 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
Hey Firesprite, that book that I posted on this thread on page 3, you should check it out. I know you RAH does the whole anticipating your emotions thing that feels like codependency, that's what that book is about (except its geared toward the guy - like your RAH and my RAH.) I only read the first few pages last night but besides you talking about your RAH and this book I've never encountered anything that explains WHY he does that. My husband has been raving about what an eye opener it has been for him. Maybe it would help you or your RAH too? Thought I'd share.
Stung is offline  
Old 02-05-2014, 12:34 PM
  # 68 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 837
Hammer, years ago when my xah was on a binge he did something awful and when I confronted him with the question of "how did you think I would feel about this?", his answer was "I never gave you thought." He didn't say it being nasty, he just gave an honest answer (which didn't happen often) he did his own thing without any thought about anyone else. Your wife sounds very much like him as well. Post after post here is talking about Compassion on the SO, but what about showing compassion for ourselves and those who depend on us?
fedup3 is offline  
Old 02-05-2014, 11:26 PM
  # 69 (permalink)  
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
This is pretty much how I expect Therapy to go . . .


Excited Man Only 2 Therapy Sessions Away From Resolving Issues | Video | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
Hammer is offline  
Old 02-06-2014, 12:45 AM
  # 70 (permalink)  
Member
 
Hawkeye13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,371
Originally Posted by fedup3 View Post
Hammer, years ago when my xah was on a binge he did something awful and when I confronted him with the question of "how did you think I would feel about this?", his answer was "I never gave you thought." He didn't say it being nasty, he just gave an honest answer (which didn't happen often) he did his own thing without any thought about anyone else. Your wife sounds very much like him as well. Post after post here is talking about Compassion on the SO, but what about showing compassion for ourselves and those who depend on us?
That's the bottom line.

Quit being the third guy on the match.
Hawkeye13 is offline  
Old 02-06-2014, 01:02 AM
  # 71 (permalink)  
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=573490496073256
Hammer is offline  
Old 02-06-2014, 02:41 PM
  # 72 (permalink)  
Recovered People Pleaser
 
Ifnotforgrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Heart of Dixie
Posts: 391
Compassion is a lot like detachment it is not so much "for" the person as the situation. It is a tool by which I am able to let go my Expectations. I have compassion for the child who suffers from Down Syndrome, but I need not take on the problems of that child. I need not go on a crusade for all the preventative measures that can be taken against birth defects. I need only be compassionate that the child who suffers from the defect has certain limitations & faces certain challenges that the average child does not.

My expectations must be reasonable. Compassion is the companion of love but a separate dog from it all together, just like empathy. I have compassion for those who suffer in any form, from cancer, addiction hunger or illiteracy.

This does not mean I drown because there is another drowning, It means if I have a life raft I throw it out to him, IF I do not have a raft and am not a lifeguard..I may attempt to go for help, if I have a reasonable expectation that some is nearby. I do what I am capable of doing, but not at the expense of my own life nor my children's or another.

If I throw the raft and have sought help and the person refuses to take it..and he drowns. I have done all I can do. I need not engage in regret. My compassion is still in tact and available for those left behind to go on living..which may just include myself.

The Serenity Prayer is a helpful tool and the Wisdom to know the difference..is an often overlooked part. I have prayed for wisdom to know what I can change..and actually there were more things I COULD change than what I had to accept. I just did not like some of the choices nor changes I needed to make. So I did not have so much of a problem as I did a solution I did not like. THAT was the part I had to accept.
Ifnotforgrace is offline  
Old 02-09-2014, 11:52 AM
  # 73 (permalink)  
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
mkay working through the Drama Lying and such -- which was pretty much the death of my compassion . . . which is where this topic started . . .

==================

[from bpdfamily.com forum with parallel discussion]

Overall, this went a little further afield with the philosophy than I would have guessed. I was really trying to stay in the functional realm.

Here is what I am forming in my mind.

If you are around abusive people . . . they are going to seek and be abusive to those they can. It is what they do, right? Else the words would not have their meaning.

BPD folks seem to very carefully select and target their abusive behaviors.

On the other side -- the targets -- are *us* as it were.

THAT was I chose Taking Personal Inventory as the location for this

Being abused and tolerating is ABOUT ME. AND then ME choosing to STOP it.

Reading through the responses -- You all have helped me sort through some past experience I have watched -- at first without even knowing what I was watching -- as she has pulled this sort of crap on other people for years.

She had made up all sorts of Drama Abuse Tales regarding her dad before I met him. So I looked at him as some sort of perp -- before a combination of recants by her, and after sorting things out, I figured out her games.

When her folks split up she had desperately wanted to go with her dad, but wound up forced to stay with her mom. She felt abandoned -- THE Classic Trigger for a BPD Mind. (the genetics were already in place from her mom's side of the family) After that she has been off rocker since. In T at 11, meds, Alcoholism, Drugs, Cutting/SI, Eating Disorder -- Classic BPD Traits.

But she has pulled this same sort of crap on her Mom, as well. A Summer ago, when we were staying at her mom's house for a month, while switching houses (she had pulled some crap refusing to select a new house when we moved -- driving our family homeless -- just for sport and drama) -- her Mom finally dropped out of enabling Codie mode for a couple days, and told her to help me get the kids back in a house. To "punish" her mom, she took the kids and went camping in the woods -- All Just So her mom would come home to an empty house, with no idea what happened. Being Emotional Abusive to her mom. I called and tipped off her mom what was going on.

But since Rehab (Eating Disorder) a little over a year ago, she has been pulling the Lies and Fake Drama crap on me. Same as she does to anyone else.

So thank you --

My Conclusion:

1. It is abuse.

2. It is done with malice, knowledge and forethought, and is intentional.

AND

3. I should put a STOP to it.
Hammer is offline  
Old 02-09-2014, 12:08 PM
  # 74 (permalink)  
Member
 
MissFixit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
Tolerating abuse is about you. And YOU can choose to stop it.
MissFixit is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:52 AM.