Stung

So…I've recently discovered/realized that my mom is NPD (my counselor heartily agrees that my mom is most likely NPD) but before this I've always just thought she was just hard on me and expected a lot from me just because that's how she is and because I'm a girl (my younger brother is a total screw up but my mom is always singing his praises - I thought she just favored him because he was a boy, but no, it's totally a classic NPD triangulation thing. I had no idea that other people had moms like mine until last week. My mind is completely blown.) I've never interpreted her meanness as manipulation but now I know better. Especially since she keeps insisting that I'm the reason that RAH is drinking and that I need just as much help as he does. (Which is true but she knows jack about alcoholism so she's not saying like you guys do, she's saying it to knock me down because it makes her feel better about herself. I'm a villain, she's the poor victim of her wretched daughter, yours truly.)

Anyway, she is coming here tomorrow to spend the night and this has been planned well before any of this came to light for me. I know that she's going to ask about how my individual counseling is going, mainly because she wants me to confirm that she's right and I'm all f'd up like she's always suspected (which means that I should start doing EVERYTHING her way because she insists that I'm a loser) also because I actually feel pretty good since I last saw my counselor and I feel like things are actually starting to get back on track which means this is going to be her opportunity to knock me back down (my happiness means that she can't swoop in and be the hero anymore which means making me out to be a villain will allow her to be the victim again.) She is right though, I am all f'd up and it's thanks to her - however, actually saying that will start a full out war. She will flip all kinds of sh*t if I tell her that she's got issues and that's the major cause of my issues. Do I lie to her? I just cannot see a good outcome besides taking her crap and allowing her to abuse me. Telling lies feels like I'm doing the same thing that she's doing though and my goal is to NOT be like her. The only outcome I want is a supportive mother but that aint gonna happen.

I'm open to any and all suggestions/advice/opinons here. Help please.

And FWIW, I'm not canceling on her because my toddler loves my mom and my mom doesn't treat my daughters like she treats me. I'm special in that my mom takes special interest in abusing me. She thinks my husband is God's gift, right after my brother, of course (part of why I thought she has always just been hard on me because I'm a girl.) Taking my kids to the aquarium with my mom is a treat for my toddler, canceling really only punishes her and I will have to deal with my mom at some point anyway. I just don't know how to handle her anymore…

Katiekate

You seriously have to detach from BPD;s and NPD's to be able to be in their prescence especially when they are abusive.

It's a very tough situation for you being that she is your parent, but you are setting yourself up for continued let downs and abuse everytime you are around her.

I suggest that you try to get educated about the disorder, how it presents , and how to detach in a way that protects you.

I realized after my x and I had finally broken up for a time that it was bpd not alcoholism that was the cause of the shitstorm that I participated in for far too long.

These personality disorders are terrible to have to deal with. The work is all yours , rarely do these people get help and the therapies for them are for the most part ineffective.

Stung

I think I'm just going to tell her I'm sick and I'll just take my kids on my own. I've been reading more about narcissistic mothers and its just too overwhelming for me to be around her right now. It's like all of the mean things she has said and done are in a whole different light now. When she told me that she was concerned about me because I was "so huge" while I was pregnant, or how I really disappointed her on my wedding day, or how she refused to attend the dinner to announce RAH's and my engagement, or how I'm a bully and I have never made her feel like I don't love her. It's bizarre to first read about alcoholism and its as if my husband studied alcoholism and then decided to become an alcoholic, and now to read about NPD, its as if someone has been writing case studies on my specific mom over the years. It's just weird and overwhelming to realize that I've been such a lightening rod for emotional abuse. It kind of freaks me out that I'm subjecting my kids to narcissism, alcoholism and whatever traits that I have that I have accepted being treated in ways that feel normal and acceptable in person but are so incredibly disgusting and dysfunctional on paper.

Hawkeye13

Hi Stung;
I wouldn't have any contact with her while this is still "tender" and processing for you if possible.

If it isn't possible, then be polite but firm in not telling her what is going on with your therapy. It isn't her beeswax anyway--divert any discussion or just say you don't wish to talk about it.

I get that the lie would be easier but somehow that doesn't feel right to me--like you are letting her possible emotional manipulation control you being true to yourself.
I don't know if that makes any sense, but there it is anyway.

By the way, I also remember the shock I felt when I first got that my mom had other issues besides alcoholism and that I wasn't the asshat she thought I was for so much of my life.

Big revelation and boy did I kick myself for not getting till then. Seemed so obvious.

Be sure not to do that to yourself.
You were conditioned from childhood to support her myth--don't forget that and cut yourself some slack

JustAGirl1971

I'm sorry, Stung I have no experience with NPD. I think detaching and limiting contact are good ideas though. I'm having to do it with some of my family. Cancelling may be the best option right now. You have enough stress in your life without your mother adding drama. I thought it was weird when you said she wouldn't want to hold your baby while you nap or have "me" time. I'm sorry, Stung, but I'm glad counseling is helping you understand.

On the detaching thing this is what I've done: My one sister who has to tell me everything I'm doing wrong in my life. The last few times I've spoken with her, she kept harping on all of the mistakes I've made in my marriage and my parenting. And, am I sure divorcing is the way to go? Shouldn't I just force ds to come home? I guess it's the need for affirmation thing, but I kept trying to get her to understand. The last time we were together, it finally clicked: she really doesn't want to hear what I have to say. It's not about me, it's about her (and her own past choices in her marriages and parenting.) I quit trying to argue. I just smiled and listened and changed the subject as soon as I could. Now, when she calls or texts, I avoid discussing my home life. I keep the call focused on her, and I make it brief. So far, it's working. I think it will get easier the more we do it?

Florence

Stung, I was reeling over this exact scenario this past year, and I'm still working through it. Like you, this was the explosive realization that made me see how I was groomed to accept totally unacceptable behavior, have a bunch of dysfunctional relationships (that looked normal until they blew up in my face), and generally fumble through adulthood not understanding how I got here. The more I educate myself and put my lessons into action the better I do. Keep reading and talking to your therapist. There's a huge modality of good therapy to treat adult children of NPDs.

I have a couple of methods that work well. I minimize my time with her overall. When we do hang out, I exercise detachment as much as I can (her brand of crazy is not actually about me, it's not personal, it existed long before me) and keep topics shallow and surface. She is just not a safe person to confide in or tell secrets to. I divert, change topics, ask her about her life, and we gossip about distant people, distant relatives, people we used to know way back when. She doesn't want to hear about me, she wants to talk about her and her opinions, so I make sure I'm not the subject.

She shines when she talks about her job, which she is good at and in which she is considered an expert. Sometimes it can be pretty pleasant to hang out, but frequently it's exhausting and sad, which is why I distance myself overall.

I expect very little from her on holidays or days that are otherwise special to me. Recently I threw a big party at my house and she made a point of coming over and telling me off in front of my close friends about an hour before it started. Totes healthy, mom!

When my siblings are in town, I make myself scarce because she triangulates and makes things very difficult.

I also know that every favor she does for me (watching the kids, for example, or helping me with anything) is being kept track of and if I don't behave in her desired way, she will hold it over my head. Also not my issue. I ask my mom to do normal grandmother stuff -- she thinks she's moving mountains.

I don't talk to her about my feelings about my marriage, about my family, about my sisters, about her and dad, that's just a dead end, and one I'll get stuck in if I'm not careful.

So basically it's like navigating a field of landmines. It's stressful, but you can do it and succeed if you're careful and know what to look for. I just don't try to do it often. Landmines explode.

MissFixit

yep. mine too. my mom has the formal dx but my father exhibits almost every single trait and has for decades. i never see my mother (once every couple years for about an hour) and see my father once a year maybe for an hour.

it is too exhausting for me to deal with. i am currently trying to figure out if there is anyway to be around him without getting hurt and not having much luck.

i had a big breakthrough and it sounds like you have/had one too about how i made bad or unhealthy choices because of what i grew up with. that is why i think it is soooo important to really look at yourself, your choices and why you made the ones you did. for me that is the only way to take control back in my life and not make those same mistakes again.

hopeful4

I don't think it is ever healthy to talk about therapy. If you could benefit from talking to her about things you would not need to be in therapy Stung!!!

If you do end up seeing her, you should politely and firmly tell her therapy is benefiting you but it is personal between you and the therapist and it is advised you not really talk about it. Then change the subject!

The thing is, you have had this big epiphany moment in realizing she is NPD. However...don't expect her to have that too. O no...that won't happen. So you have to consult with your therapist the best ways to handle her in your life. At this moment, you may not be ready, an that is fine too. As an NPD don't expect her to accept any responsibility. That will be hard to swallow. However...if you know what to expect it will be easier to deal with.

Hugs Stung. You can do this. Keep posting, keep going to therapy. You will get through this!

PohsFriend

Stung

True NPD has many traits that may be present but one that is ALWAYS present. That is a lack of empathy. They will never acknowledge your hurts and will more than likely see them as a form of weakness and find it pathetic.

I have two siblings. The eldest looks after mom now but on her terms - mom has to take her meds and see the doc or big sis will drop her. It is a huge burden but one my sis is OK taking on. Other sis is the middle kid and to this day is completely dominated by a 50 year unmet need to have mommy tell her she is loved and wanted.

I took a third path. 16 years ago when my DD was 2 we all got together and each had a little one around 2 and they were playing and mom went into that mode - face went into a snarl and she screamed at them. I looked at my ex and said one word - pack. I then looked mom in the eye from about 10" away and very quietly and firmly said "You will never see me or your granddaughter again if you cannot control yourself, you will NEVER speak to her that way or make her cry again - choose now". In a movie I guess that would be the part where she broke down and realized what she'd done all those years. Here in reality... well, it's been 16 years and it took about 14 of them to finally reach the point where I am comfortable with the idea that it is simply not healthy for me to be around her and but more importantly, I don't allow others to treat me like she does.

Those are three examples, I don't suggest any of them is correct but two of us accept what is and have managed to work out a solution that doesn't hurt us.

One very difficult trait those in our community share is a tendency not to be able to maintain our boundaries with the NPD. If I asked you how your therapy sessions were going and what you were learning you would have no problem pointing out that it was none of my damned business unless we had the sort of relationship where you were comfortable discussing it and presumably you would only have that level of comfort with me if our relationship was such that you felt quite 'safe' trusting that my intentions were completely benevolent. You already mentioned that she would seek the data to use as a club to beat you with and that a true answer would enrage her and she would punish you. It's none of her damned business.

The only people in this world you owe complete devotion to are your children then yourself. You can't be a whole, sane and healthy mom if you aren't whole and sane so you are not being selfish if you choose to do whatever you need to do in order for you to be whole. You are actually obliged to enforce boundaries that protect you from any hurts that will impact your ability to be the best mom you can be. Your mom, husband, friends, work... they come after you and your children and you can't put your kids first without putting your SELF first. You are allowed to do that. Children get unconditional love and devotion, period. Anyone else may get unconditional love but their involvement in our lives has to be conditional upon whether they add or detract from our life.

If I may be so bold as to tell you something that may be hard to get comfortable with for you: It is all about you. You come first. Your needs are paramount.

...not something I would tell or need to tell someone with NPD but fortunately you don't have that problem, you have empathy and concern. Now you need to become comfortable having them for yourself first because everyone and everything you cherish depends on you being sane, whole and happy.

Hang in there my friend.

wanttobehealthy

I find my NPD mom much harder to deal w right now than AH. She gets my siblings to rally w her in her victim bs when I set limits and she is horrifically emotionally abusive just as your is.

What works for me (& she lives right near me so it's not easy to do this...)

1). Tell her nothing personal and nothing you don't want later thrown in your face
2). Be as unemotional as possible. No letting her see she upsets you. She thrives on that.
3). Set limits and expect to be called mean, bad daughter and bully but set them anyway.

Your priority is YOU and your kids. She may now be affectionate w your child but as your kid gets older and has opinions of her own watch for your mom to undermine you w her and then if that's unsuccessful, to be mean in subtle ways to your child.

My daughters don't especially like my mom that much and she hates me for that. Kids are smart and pick up on creepy very well.

Limit her time w you and your child

Hammer

Super Work on/for YOU, STUNG!.

Super.

Guess you may have tracked that Mrs. Hammer tracks towards the Covert side of this -- Borderline, while from what I think I am hearing your Mom tracks to the Overt side -- Narcissistic.

Either way they are close cousins, and often some similar Brain Hardware Issues.

But for the *us* side of things -- dealing with either/both have some similar methods and results. Dunno if I suggested this for you, or not, but if not -- it is pretty good and is on my desk . . . .

Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life: Margalis Fjelstad: 9781442220188: Amazon.com: Books

Yunno you are really going to have a clean and tidy home in your head when you get through all this.

Go, Girl, Go!

Stung

My counselor told me that my mom doesn't know what she's doing and that trying to give her the same "ah-ha" moment that I'm having will be fruitless and only subject me to her wrath. She said it's great that I've been able to identify this myself and that that's step one. Moving forward I can work on myself and give myself a new normal but the normal I have right now isn't healthy but it's what I know because of how I was raised. She thinks that my mom does a LOT of projecting which is why some of the stuff she says feels like it's actually legitimate when it's really not. She said this is why I'm an overachiever, because I'm trying to meet a standard that doesn't even exist. I could become the first female president of the United States and my mom still won't tell me she's proud of me or that I'm doing something good. In my head it always feels like "oh, maybe NOW she'll think I did something good." Nope, hasn't happened yet and really probably never will.

I've been detaching a little bit from her over the past few years in so much that I don't engage with her anymore. It's really easy to hear her say something really hurtful and then to call BS and then get REALLY beat down. She's really big on telling me that "everyone" agrees with how she feels or what she thinks and then gets really, really angry when I question who "everyone" comprises. I assume that she comes to these general consensuses of my agreed upon failures because she's either lying to me or lying to anyone that listens to her talk.

My mom also LOVES talking about her work…she's an accountant like I am. She also loves telling me that everyday is a vacation for me because I'm a stay at home mom. Ugh.

We'll see what happens today. I'm nearly positive that if I told her "no" she would come down here anyway. I keep trying to tell myself that my sudden realization doesn't really change my relationship with her except that I now have the home court advantage after a lifetime of not even knowing what game she was playing with me.

Thanks for your responses guys. It is very comforting to know that I'm not the only one dealing with an NPD person.

PohsFriend

Interesting and perhaps ironic tendency of NPD's. They like to tell you that you are NPD.

When my NPDXW and I parted ways it was a bad time and she said things like how she would destroy me, she called people I had known for 20 years and told them as much embarassing dirt on me as she could, she trashed me on Facebook and she told me that she felt sorry for anyone around me because HER therapist called her up and told her that she doesn't need any therapy, she would be fine once free of me because I am NPD and will detroy anyone and everyone close to me. NPD's study you and know where to cut with a neurosurgeon's precision.
I was terrified. What if everything I perceived was wrong because I was really NPD and crazy and my perceptions were so warped that I could not see it? What if I was dooming my loved ones by being part of their lives?

When I choked out those fears to my therapist through a steady flow of tears and utter desolation he just nodded his head sadly and said something along the lines of "First of all, no therapist tells someone they have NO need for therapy now that someone is out of their life. Second of all, NPD is not always easy to diagnose and you sure can't diagnose it without observation. Third of all I don't need to test you for it. If you were NPD you would not be falling apart out of fear that you are bad for your loved ones - you would not care".

It's important to be very careful tossing around the term NPD. It shares traits with many disorders and has been the subject of numerous longstanding debates. A while back there was some discussion of dropping it as a diagnosis altogether amidst allegations that several of the folks on the review board were - you guessed it - NPD.

Crazy means you don't understand where you are off, sane is recognizing we're all a little off and being able to assess and mitigate our own screwiness ;-)

Hammer

You said a mouthful on the real human side of things there.

We (me and the kids) sort of have our "family fire drills" down, now.

As least as far as I can tell.

But you never know, do you? And the war you prepare for is rarely the one you get to fight. And even the wars you are prepared for are not good. Best war is the one you never fight.

hmmm. THAT is true Sun Tzu -- Art of War. Too bad I lingered too long in the Fight and Battle side of things.

But you are correct. Alcohol or any of the rest was never the real problem.

First be aware and accept it.
Second -- Get Distance.
Third -- Up go the Fire Walls --

and then let Crazy burn itself out. You cannot put out the fire, but it sure can burn you.

hopeful4

Stung...it always cracks me up when someone thinks they know what "everybody" thinks. Really now...most likely "everybody" thinks she is full of BS.

I am glad your BS filter is on. You know how we always say it...when she starts pulling that envision her with the words QUACK coming out of her mouth, that is all it is. I wholeheartedly agree with the counselor. A NPD will never admit all of this is wrong. They truly do not think they are subjecting you to their pure crap, even when they are.

I am glad she does not act that way with your children. For me that would be a deal breaker. You are doing all the right things. So...put your quacking BS meter on high and stay calm. Do not let her insult you, you are a great person!

Keep Calm....let her Quack On! (cheesiest saying I have ever said...haha)!

Stung

Yeah, my mom has VERY successfully made me the black sheep/scapegoat of my entire family. I have zero contact with my brother or his awful wife or their kids. I like it that way. My mom says that this has ruined her life and thus ensues her own victimization and triangulation. Everyone wants a big happy family besides me. Why do I have to keep ruining her life. Blah, Blah, Blah.

What you and Poh said though, about it effecting my kids, that scares me and I will definitely watch for it. Right now, she is nice (not affectionate, I don't think she's capable of being affectionate) with my 2 year old and my 5 month old is still a baby so she doesn't really count yet. If/when she EVER says something nasty, belting, derogatory to either of my girls she will be cut off. Period. End of story. MIL is already cut off for life because she's like my mom but she actually hates me.

Hammer, my counselor suggested this book (funny how my reading list keeps getting longer and longer yet none of theses books are on best sellers list or being made into movies. Boo!) The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists: Coping with the One-Way Relationship in Work, Love, and Family: Eleanor Payson: 9780972072830: Amazon.com: Books

…and my mom just texted me. She'll be here in 30 minutes, I live 2 hours away from her. So much for bailing. Say a prayer for me that I can perfect the art of rolling my eyes without being seen.

hopeful4

My little 8 year old daughter was dancing around the house last night singing, "With a feather on it's back it goes Quack, Quack, Quack!"

They were doing a duck book at school and singing that...but it sure made me think of all of us here at SR and I got a good laugh from it!

Stung

Dude, I refer to her as Dr. Phil when I'm talking about her to my best friend. I cannot tell you how many diagnoses my mom has come up with about what is wrong with me. Chemical imbalance, clinical depression, bi-polar, severe childhood trauma, she is ALWAYS telling me that I think I'm better than everyone else, the list goes on and on. This is what kind of gives me to urge to say "guess what genius, it's YOU not me." But that won't get me anywhere. The only satisfaction that would give me is if she could actually recognize that it's HER but that likely never will be an outcome.

hopeful4

Hmmm...maybe you should suggest she become a psychologist since she can diagnose you so well....instead of an accountant....haha!

With all of those diagnosis going on..you must be one exciting person Stung!!

I am sorry..I don't mean to make light of it. It is terrible she does this to you. However...it is her, not you. You are the victim and cannot take responsibility for her actions. Find ways to limit contact as much as possible with her, that would help you the most. For this weekend...breathe....be calm....don't give in or she will diagnose you with some other disorder!!!

Florence

Ugh, me too. My sisters and I barely talked for ten years, and now that we are talking without her as an intermediary, the uncovering of the lies and half truths she's been telling has been ****ing WILD. For example, all the family vacations I didn't attend? I wasn't invited, they were planned without me, and they were scheduled on dates she knew I couldn't attend. She told my sisters and their families that I didn't want to come. It turns out that I and all my "problems" (many of which weren't true) were the topic of conversation whenever I wasn't present, which explained why everyone turned on me when I did show up. That's just one example, and a lighter one. There are much darker ones too. Like when she sided with my abuser when I was a young adult, or when she told everyone I wasn't raped when I was a teenager and that I was just a bad kid who probably brought it on myself anyway. Today she's mad at me about getting divorced from my STBXAH and has enlisted family to take sides about it. She would dangle love and support in front of me, and man, I would dance for it. Behind my back she was salting the earth I stood on.

I spent Christmas alone this year, and it turned out not to be a bad idea.

So my sisters and I talk now, and I tell them that I will be scarce on holidays but we arrange time to spend time together outside of my parents house. One sister hates me, thinks I'm a sad clown, and will vie for mom's love until she dies. The other sister cried and cried when she finally pieced together what mom was doing to us. I'm still figuring out how deep these roots go.

Like you, I originally chose a profession that was similar to my mom's (I wonder if this is a thing). At the last minute, as I was graduating, I chose not to get licensed in my field because I saw her starting to micromanage my new career. At first I felt stupid for letting her behavior scare me out of using my college diploma, but in hindsight it was a rare moment of clarity.

It's good to have compassion for these people (from a distance). They suggest that these people had serious bonding trauma as children and developed these extremely maladaptive behaviors to cope with wounds so deep they can't acknowledge them. I have suspicions about how and why my mom and xNPD developed this brand of crazy. It helps me feel compassion instead of fear.