Hammer

Mkay.

Mrs. Hammer has been back about a year from Rehab.

I guess a little over 13 months looking at the calendar.

She has stabilized quite a bit. The Compulsive Lying seems way down -- at least what I see/hear in feedback from others. Some still, but way down. That matches what I have heard from other AA folks who "catch" the Lying Addiction after Rehab. First year it just grips them, but if they work on it, it fades away. And the kids are not scared of her now. She is still doing her Therapy, at least for now.

I can still see elements of the crazy pop out. Total Non-sequitur concepts or conversations. Usually about something she has made up and wants to know why I have done or said something that never happened.

She has a Sponsor -- but while they are close personally, and chat at least every couple of days, or so, she lives over 1000 miles away and they have not actually seen each other for 2 or 3 years, now. So when she does persona shifts, the sponsor would have no idea.

Mrs. Hammer's mom would at this point -- Lie, Cheat, and Steal, whatever -- for Mrs. Hammer to not have a Mental Illness -- even though she took Mrs. Hammer to her first Therapist back when Mrs. Hammer was just 11. And had her on meds for years. MIL will rage at me for anything that may indicate everything is not now perfect -- so I just cut a wide path around her and leave it alone.

So any rate, in all that -- Mrs. Hammer has a Therapist -- whom I have never met or even talked to. Her getting her own Therapist totally on her own was one of her "grow up" things that I was not supposed to be involved with -- so I was Very Happy to not be involved.

Back about 6 months ago, asking her to work on the Compulsive Lying stuff, I routed a note through the sponsor to the T, to go over with Mrs. Hammer. (all above board, and pre-agreed). That seemed to go okay. It was a nice note that folks on here helped me edit, and I think it was generally well received, as Mrs. Hammer seemed happy about it. But I do not know if the Sponsor or T edited it down, either.

Here is my question. Should I send another note through the Sponsor and T, noting the (now much more mild) crazy I am still seeing? Again I would do so with direct knowledge to everyone, and keep everything above board.

Mrs. Hammer's head would explode if I brought up the idea directly that she is "not quite right," yet. I do not see where being direct would be good for her, the kids, or us.

Lulu39

Whatever you do it will be wrong in their/her eyes. You will get the blame when your adult female Hammer woman again goes berserk, whatever you do. Even if you do NOTHING she/they will blame you.

I've never met a crazy person who has managed to get 100% well, ever. They will always be an alcoholic/addict and they will always be crazy.

One of my close friends is a sober/clean for 30 years ex-heroin addict with Hep C. She does not drink or use anything. Smartest woman I know, but crazier than a cut snake. She will and can lie about anything and everything. I know that and she knows that I know. Love her guts though and she is the best value at parties - that woman can tell a story (mostly all lies) and have a multitude gathered around her and, when she finishes they all ask her for another story.

Maybe your female adult Hammer being "not quite right yet" is as good as you are going to get.

My XAH is also crazy. He sees a co-morbidity doctor/specialist. I'm not supposed to know but when they phone here looking for him and leave their number on my answering machine and Google is right there, well???

You've gone past your zero hours date Hammer, why the scrambling and hunting for reasons to stay?

Hopeworks

Hi Hammer,

What a dilemma. If the therapist believed you what good could potentially come from it? If she revealed that you had suggested that she was mentally ill and cited incidents it wouldn't change the fact that she is ... mentally ill". Most likely there will be denial, minimalizing or blame shifting to your side of the street and then resentment will be a huge possibility from Mrs. Hammer.

If the T just keeps it to herself with a mental note I don't see how that would change her treatment and counseling approach in any way. It's a risk and Pandora's Box that won't change the facts anyway.

Bottom line is she will get to a place where she gets significantly better or she will plateau or relapse and you will know the path you need to take.

Your situation is so difficult and most would have bailed so long ago. I commend you for sticking it out to see if there is a sliver of hope to keep the marriage together. As you know... time tells all. I know sometimes you feel like its water drip torturous to deal with the craziness day in and day out but there will come a time when you will just know deep in your heart. And I don't think the T will have a darn thing to do with that!

MissFixit

i feel for your situation. but what do you hope to gain from interjecting yourself in her therapy? why do you think that YOU need to be involved in it? she is where she is, ya know? like it or lump it. she is an adult but you are treating her like a patient/child you are trying to fix. not your place.

IMHO, you might look at why you feel she needs to change and why you think you are the one to "help" in that happening. if you are happy with things, great. if you are not happy with things, then investigate what with you needs to change (i know you are already doing that).

stay on your side of the street. if you are compelled no venture to her side, pause and look at your motivations.

perhaps: if you want to stay married to mrs. hammer, then accept the lying stuff. if you don't want to accept the lying stuff, don't be married to mrs. hammer. totally your choice.

ladyscribbler

Here is my question. Should I send another note through the Sponsor and T, noting the (now much more mild) crazy I am still seeing? Again I would do so with direct knowledge to everyone, and keep everything above board.

Mrs. Hammer's head would explode if I brought up the idea directly that she is "not quite right," yet. I do not see where being direct would be good for her, the kids, or us.

It is possible that the T already knows and is dealing with it in an indirect way. This is common in the treatment of certain mental illnesses where directly confronting the person and diagnosing them would cause more harm than good. I've heard of schizophrenic patients being given pills for "anxiety" that are actually antipsychotics, just as a backdoor way to make sure that they follow through and actually take them. The stigma of being "crazy" is really tough for people to swallow, and a common feature of many mental illnesses is total denial that the mentally ill individual has a problem. Everything is always the fault of others. Very similar to addiction in this way. I go through this with my (untreated) schizophrenic mother, and based on some of your past posts it sounds like Mrs. H shows a lot of these same features. I've learned to cope with my mother by applying alanon principles to our relationship- detachment, letting nature take its course and just generally keeping my big sticky beak out of things unless her behavior veers into the realm of mental or emotional abuse. This is rare since I stopped trying to confront her about her delusions. Boundaries, in other words. I tend my own garden and let her tend to hers. Best wishes to you and the mini-hammers. I know how much it sux to grow up in a house with active mental illness.

caboblanco

I don't know if writing a "to do" letter for Mrs. Hammer's sponsor was such a good idea. If I was Mrs. Hammer and I found out..I wouldn't be too happy

readerbaby71

I would say no. They know she is mentally ill.

I can still see elements of the crazy pop out. Total Non-sequitur concepts or conversations. Usually about something she has made up and wants to know why I have done or said something that never happened.

Mental illness can be treated, but like addiction, does not go away. Her recovery is her recovery. What are your motivations for wanting to send the note? To help or try to control or change her behavior?

I know it's hard. I can't imagine being in your situation. I hope it keeps getting better. xo

Hammer

Well, you certainly know that part of the game quite well.

No argument from me in that.

Fair enough, there, too. In truth, she has ALWAYS been at least a LITTLE Crazy. I knew that when I signed the title. But she was honest back then. That was before the Relapse. She had cautioned that she would likely be in and out of therapy most of her life, but it was not an angry thing, she accepted it, I was (and still am) okay with that. She would need therapy, I need glasses. Our first "date" was to see MY Therapist (PTSD, etc.)

But after the Relapse it was angry crazy. And did not want to go to therapy. I think she sincerely figured she could keep things counter-balanced (more like counter-boogered) with the Eating Disorder. But Rehab took the ED away. That is what has been so hard since Rehab. I guess now she is coming into acceptance again with being in Therapy-for-Life, or whatever? Dunno.

Mrs. Hammer's Dry Drunk goes that way. Swinging ropes and climbing mountain sides. Only half joking about that part. They have this program called "Ropes," at the Rehab she is working. Most of the other T's are too fat to do it. Since she has come back up to weight, with all the prior exercise stuff, she is fairly hawt and fit. Daughter calls the Dry Drunk behavior "Bragzilla." But even Dry Drunk has faded out the last couple of months.

I can live with that. IF it is Good for the kids -- it is Good by me. I only have one #1 Priority. It is and has been the kids. She seems kind and loving with them, they seem happy with her.

I fully understand. I read everything you write and most of it twice. Now in your case (or I guess I should say HIS case) he is clearly bad for the kids,t and even scares them, is that correct?

Around our house we are getting back towards family game night and all watching Nanny McPhee together. (no joke). I have been actively kissing her good-bye when I leave, because I know the kids are watching and that makes them feel secure and (perhaps) even she feels loved.

The kids. The kids WANT the family to stay together. THAT was last year's Christmas Wish from my Cub Scout -- "Dad, Hold the Family Together." I can see his face and hear his words as I type this.

His prayer was Mom and Dad (me) would stop fighting. By God's Grace (and my acquired skills on how to shut that down) -- we have. He recognizes his Prayer has been granted.

Same as daughter's Prayer was granted -- to remove the lies from our house -- Mrs. Hammer started her 60 hour a week job the next week. Daughter looked up and said -- "Our Prayer was answered, the Lies are gone."

Mrs. Hammer is doing pretty good by them, as near as I can tell.

I have my #1 Priority Mission. The kids. I will die before I fail them.

Upsetnneedhelp

After following many of your posts I have to agree that this is about as good as she is going to get. A question I have to ask though is why are you still married to her? You seem very unhappy in the relationship and I don't think it even matters if she is sober or not.

hopeful4

I too say no. One thing to consider is that she very likely lies to the therapist. My AH saw the same therapist for quite some time. I never doubted that he lied like a dog to her. Once (and I know this is terrrible of me) I read a few pages of his journal. There were even lies in the journal. It opened my eyes that not only is he lying to me and the therapist but that he actually lies to himself. Now, that has been a while and things have gotten better quite a bit on that front, but I don't trust him further than I can throw him and that will always be the way it is, together or apart. I have accepted that.

I had to let go and trust that the therapist could find it too. It is just not my fight to fight.

Good luck no matter what you decide Mr. Hammer!

ShootingStar1

Hammer, with all empathy and compassion, what is the point of this?

What result do you hope to get?

If you do this, it will likely cause a great flap and great upset and great blame and great chaos, but it is unlikely to cause any real changes.

Mental illness is mental illness, and hers has been diagnosed and persistent since age 11, more or less, but always there.

Untreated alcoholism is progressive, and she is not truly working a program.

Your decision to stay or go is your decision based on what you want your life and your kids' lives to be. You have 13 more months of information, and mild improvement, but no acknowledgement by Mrs. Hammer that she is mentally ill and no commitment to working a recovery program intensively for her alcoholism.

Here's what concerns me. I'll share a story about what I am living through right now, at 63, having grown up with an alcoholic father and psychotic mother and addicted sibling. It's about me as a child, how I learned to think; what I learned my "job" was in the world; what I did as an adult because of that.

My father, an alcoholic, died of a rare disease in 20 years ago where his brain deteriorated quickly while his body remained functional. He was taking care of his sister's finances and she was also an alcoholic. My mother and sibling convinced my aunt that I "killed" my father because at the doctors' request, I tried to explain that he was brain-dead and his health care power of attorney said he didn't want to be on life support.

My dad asked me to take care of my aunt's finances in his stead, and I did. That got twisted, and they told my aunt I was stealing her money which I wasn't. I am honest, moral, and made a lot of money myself. I just loved her. There were multiple estate planning documents involved and my sibling took control of my aunt's ample finances although she willed half her estate to my sibling and half to me after my mother's death and lifetime use.

My mother died recently. I had to go back through documents from 20 years ago when my dad died and 10 years ago when my aunt died and see what happened for my lawyer since my sibling says, with no proof, that my aunt totally disinherited me when that is not legally true. My sibling also now says that I owe a huge amount of money because I stole it.

So I had to look at every outrageous disturbed punitive destructive thing they did to me and it was stunning in its dysfunction, evil, and devastation to me. What is even more stunning to me is to see how I handled all of that. I was honest and moral, but I was drawn into their craziness to the point of fighting it and losing myself in the chaos and drama. My supposed "theft" was a clever set-up of money being moved surreptitiously from one account to another with phony "proof" that I did it.

While this behavior didn't seem normal to me back then, it WAS normal in that it WAS what I had to live in the middle of and cope with every day of my life as a child. As an adult, I used the same coping skills I had cobbled together as a child. I protested, I argued, I tried to prove I was right, I contested, I tried to fix it...

And because I was so assaulted and demeaned and vilified and falsely accused and UNABLE TO FIX WHAT I THOUGHT I HAD TO FIX, I fell apart emotionally. The pain of betrayal was so huge that I suffered immense depression and self blame and I stopped functioning for a long time. These were people whom I LOVED, people who were the core of my family, despite their evil and dysfunction. They pretended to - appeared to - love me. Even while they cut me up into little pieces and left them on the floor. They were all I had as a child and the bond was as deep as it was dysfunctional.

Now, having left and divorced my XAH 18 months ago, at 63, I finally have enough distance and emotional healing to see what happened back then and handle it differently. Detach.

Even now, though, having had to pour through boxes of 20 year old checks and handwritten notes of each incidence of abuse - and there were boxes of them - I got upset and lost my emotional balance and my intellectual clarity. I saw my lawyer Monday morning and was disjointed and unable to explain what had happened to me succinctly and in any kind of order. I couldn't get beyond the emotional assaults and the fear, the terror that I had felt 20 and 10years ago. Reading all that stuff re-triggered the PTSD I had as a child which had been reinforced 20 years ago and again 10 years ago.

Yesterday I righted myself and wrote to my attorney "thank you for focusing me on what the law requires instead of what my sibling wants. I apologize for being diverted back into his maelstrom and becoming somewhat frazzled and disorganized as a result."

Hammer, this is a very long way of saying that I think you have no idea of what dysfunction your children are absorbing and learning despite all the emotional "work-around" maneuvers you are teaching them.

I don't know what I would do if I were you. I understand that it is immensely hard to be in your situation, much as if you and your kids had been plucked from a happy ordinary life and landed on the moon to try to survive without moon-suits.

I just think that it would be better to put your kids totally in the center of the equation, and not worry about Mrs. Hammer.

Said with great empathy and compassion, take what you want and leave the rest,

ShootingStar1

Hammer

Probably all true. I think it mostly a "work" hang-over for me. I work in fields where the motto is "Everyone Gets Their Work Checked. EVERYONE." The consequences of error are so high that everyone is encouraged to say (Very Loudly) -- THAT SUCKS! STOP!

But you are correct -- T is NOT Engineering. In fact, Borderlines (or Borderline Traits) often have issues with the DX, and so it is often not given. Thanks for re-setting my compass on that part.

If the kids are good, I am good. I am pretty sure the fully well Mrs. Hammer (whatever that is) still has that same value system, too. Drunk, or Dry Drunk -- not so much, but that real human aspect down under, it is kids first. She is even accepting that we will not do the wanderlust moving stuff anymore (part of the Mental Illness thing -- called Geographic Something).

Refiner

Oh, Hammer that just breaks my heart to hear "the kids aren't scared of her now" What has she actually been diagnosed with that makes her a "crazy"? I read PTSD and a past Eating Disorder... I can see where you want to slip a note to try to "help along" with her therapy! Do you think her issues could have gotten worse (and may not get better) because the alcohol has caused actual brain damage? That's what appears to have happened with my sister. I know she's text-book NPD all her life, then has a drinking problem that put her in the hospital on life-support right before Christmas. She kept falling down and hitting her head then finally started having seizures and bleeding on the brain. Docs said her brain has actually shrunk from the alcohol abuse (cerebral atrophy) which you know has to do something with the way one thinks and is wired. We've never gotten along too well, but I really noticed her personality change for the even worse about 5 years ago. Then when our mom died in 2010, I no longer had to be "the bigger person" and I got the hell away from her and went low contact. She is supposedly in out-patient therapy now, but unless the NPD is addressed, I don't think anything will change for her. She can stop drinking but how does one become a "nicer" person who can have relationships with people? I haven't heard very good outcomes when it comes to NPD being thrown into the mix, unfortunately.

JustAGirl1971

I'd vote no, too, Hammer. We have a lot of mental illness in my family: bipolar, depression, schizophrenia, OCD, anxiety/panic disorders. My experience is that it's very similar to an addict: If they want help, they will get it. If they don't, they won't. Nothing we say or do will change that. (The exception of course, is when someone's life is in danger as a result of the mental illness. Then, we have a duty to report.)

Hammer

I guess you have tracked -- asked and answered.

It is what the kids All and Very Clearly want.

readerbaby71

I just wanted to add.....although I was diagnosed and started being treated for bipolar disorder years ago, I still sometimes have a hard time accepting that I will live with it for the rest of my life. That I will have to take medication and constantly work hard to keep my mental state at a healthy level. Always. It is tiring and overwhelming some days. It can be disheartening.

Hawkeye13

Hammer, "what the kids want" may not be in their best interest.

Of course they love their mother.
Of course they want their family intact.

But I agree with others since I grew up with an unstable mother too.
I thought that was "normal" because I didn't know any better.
But I absorbed some of crazy and it has tracked me my whole adult life.
You don't know she will stay stable or be reliable even tomorrow.

Just because things are better (kids aren't afraid???)
doesn't mean they are good enough.

Not trying to be unkind, but you seem to shoot from the hip yourself.

I don't think you are being honest with yourself about what living with this kind
of personality is doing to your kid's long term development.

Surface OK and deep, liffelong conditioning are two very different things.
I know you know that.

readerbaby71

It's so true. My mom is a kind, talented sensitive person. I love her very much, but her depression affected me in ways I never realized until I was well into adulthood. As kids we don't understand that mental illness even exists. What we grow up with is what we think is "normal".

It trickles down, too. My mom had a very difficult, abusive childhood. Her father was a raging alcoholic. At 71 she's still never been to therapy or dealt with these issues, even when we have all urged her to. She still gets extremely depressed. It's sad.

ladyscribbler

So, Her lies and delusions are an issue for You. So, You want to let Her therapist know that the mental illness is still active so the therapist can work with Mrs. H and fix Her stuff that is an issue for You so You can stay together for the Them (the kids).

Sorry if I'm oversimplifying, I know this stuff is complicated, but I've seen that you're a pronoun guy, so there it is.

Florence

My parents were depressed and anxious and their depression, chronic anxiety, squabbling, and denial affected me so deeply that at 33, I'm only now starting to realize that their way was completely dysfunctional, and no, I wasn't a total **** up who didn't deserve their love and attention. My mom should have left my dad, probably -- no, absolutely -- before I was born. Regardless, their commitment to dysfunction meant that my needs went COMPLETELY unaddressed, and in my fending for myself I developed really nasty coping mechanisms that are affecting me now, and affect my kids now.

The ONLY thing that stops this kind of dysfunctional cycle is ONE parent's commitment to ending it once and for all.

I'll say it: Your unwillingness to completely reconfigure this relationship is affecting your kids' development. Between her crazy and your condescending, mean ways of dealing with her, they're learning dysfunctional life skills. This is not how healthy relationships work.

What your kids are really saying is that they want healthy parents, not that they want to go down with the ship. Read between the lines, my engineer friend.

Just my opinion, take it, leave it, or delete it.