Full Circle
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Full Circle
So probably what brought me back here this week was that my beloved Poh is having a different sort of crisis right now and it's one I understand a little more about. Three of her 'sobriety sisters' as she and her sponsor's other sponsees call themselves, have relapsed this past month. Another lost a child to an overdose.
I've taken notice obviously - the drama and distress sets off my warning bells because distress and fear and worry are the tools that little effer we call alcoholism uses as tools to make my wife thirsty. I quite honestly feel bad for the girls who are struggling but they aren't my problem and they are not hers. I would like to see her spending more time around people who have been sober for several years and are NOT relapsing.
Last night she spent time on the phone with another girl in her group who is mature in her sobriety and they talked for a couple hours - something I was very grateful for.
Here are some things my wife has been saying to me, not them, as she works through it in her head:
"If you relapse and come back then OK, everyone is going to give you a hug and welcome you back. If you KEEP relapsing then it's hard to believe it when you say you are serious about working your sobriety... I mean I want to be supportive and a good friend but if they aren't serious about getting help I can't help them... is it wrong for me to feel that way? Am I judging them unfairly?".
"If you aren't coming to meetings and aren't working your program and have all sorts of excuses for why you can't make it then hello, it isn't a shock that you are relapsing... I don't go because I am close to relapsing I go so that I DON'T get close to relapsing...".
"I wish I could help and I don't want to judge anyone because Lord knows I am not perfect but I really want to say 'look, I love you but I just can't be around you or be your friend when you are drinking because it puts me at risk' I can't afford to risk my family because someone else is risking theirs - is that selfish??? I want to do the right thing but I don't know what that is...".
Anyone thinking "Amen, sister, pull up a chair!"????
She's doing better now but she was scared by it (thank God) and torn between feeling an obligation to help her friends who she loves, because she would do anything for her loved ones, and the realization that they know what to do, they know when the meetings are and they know the steps and they know better than to do what they are doing and know that the excuses are just that, know they are risking all they've gained....
She's shocked and appalled and scared and thankfully she's talking about it and getting those fears out. She said she doesn't feel like she is ready to be surrounded by people at that stage right now - she still needs to be around people who are in a better place, further along in sobriety than she is and maybe a few years from now she will be ready to deal with a bunch of people relapsing around her but not now. She knows that she could have a couple drinks once per week and 9 times out of 10 maybe she'd be able to stop there but she doesn't because she knows that any one of those ten times could be a one way ticket back to the rollercoaster and the problem with alcoholism is that there's no telling which drink is the one that 'does it' so the only answer for her is none, ever, forever, period.
I told her two things -
1. To me and from my selfish perspective - Her sobriety comes first, anything that risks her sobriety threatens our family so she need not feel guilty for pulling back and passing on being in the middle of all the drama. She is protecting herself, her son and her family and nobody should ever feel the need to explain or apologize for that. I love her friends too and hope they get well but until then I selfishly hope they will call someone else and leave their crap off our doorstep.
2. With her friends... she did not cause them to relapse, can't control what they do and she can't cure them. She hadn't heard that before, it comes from a different 12 step program ;-)
She hasn't verbalized it exactly but I think she's seeing herself a few years ago through my eyes and getting a glimpse of what alcoholism looks like from our perspective.
I'm proud of her. She's much smarter than I am. It took me much longer to understand what she's quickly internalized. She can pray for them and hope they 'come home' to AA but she can't force them to and can't allow their problems to divert her from focusing on what she needs to do in order to have a sane and healthy life. She's sad about that but seems to be over the guilt and determined to focus on protecting herself and her future and recognizing that it's up to them - she has no obligation to them unless and until they come back, stay sober and back up their words with action.
I think it was one of the more experienced ladies who tends to come off harsh but, as we get to know her what seems harsh is more pragmatism, who clarified it for Poh. When someone asked what her about the girls who are back in crisis she shrugged and said "They know when the meetings are". That would have seemed damned cold to me a few years ago, now I think wow, smart chick.
Ironic, huh? What might be instructive for me and for others here and why I shared this is that it reinforces something we hear all the time but struggle with - there isn't anything anyone else can do until an active alcoholic seeks help and stops on their own and trying to help can only hurt the helper and might even hurt the helpee. It's one thing to hear it from others in our shoes but I found this ...interesting. The sober alcoholics with the longest tenures in AA sorta shrugged at this and matter of factly pointed out that there is nothing to be done other than to wait until there is something that can be done. The recovering alcoholics with less time in the program like my wife and some of her friends reacted more like we do - they wanted to rush in and save the relapsers. Their reaction was just like ours with one major exception - we resist and fight the idea that there is no way to help until the relapser is ready because that idea renders us powerless and impotent and is sooooo brutally hard to accept and understand that most of us don't accept it until we prove it to ourselves by exhausting every other possibility.
My wife heard it once and immediately understood. I mean I could see on her face not just the acceptance but the comprehension - it was unmistakable. It was not "Yeah but" (our favorite retort) it was "Ah ****" followed by resignation and acceptance.
We kinda go on faith and theory rather than experiential knowledge on most of what we deem to be the truth of this disease and believing is different than knowing. The reaction of the mature recoverees (resignation and a shrug) was telling. The ability of a 'newer' recoveree to immediately comprehend and understand that which takes us a very long time was also telling.
Those who have the benefit of knowing validate that which we need a lot of time and repetition to internalize and even then we second guess. ...they don't have to take it on faith or try 100 alternatives, they know, immediately and with certainty.
Food for thought.
I've taken notice obviously - the drama and distress sets off my warning bells because distress and fear and worry are the tools that little effer we call alcoholism uses as tools to make my wife thirsty. I quite honestly feel bad for the girls who are struggling but they aren't my problem and they are not hers. I would like to see her spending more time around people who have been sober for several years and are NOT relapsing.
Last night she spent time on the phone with another girl in her group who is mature in her sobriety and they talked for a couple hours - something I was very grateful for.
Here are some things my wife has been saying to me, not them, as she works through it in her head:
"If you relapse and come back then OK, everyone is going to give you a hug and welcome you back. If you KEEP relapsing then it's hard to believe it when you say you are serious about working your sobriety... I mean I want to be supportive and a good friend but if they aren't serious about getting help I can't help them... is it wrong for me to feel that way? Am I judging them unfairly?".
"If you aren't coming to meetings and aren't working your program and have all sorts of excuses for why you can't make it then hello, it isn't a shock that you are relapsing... I don't go because I am close to relapsing I go so that I DON'T get close to relapsing...".
"I wish I could help and I don't want to judge anyone because Lord knows I am not perfect but I really want to say 'look, I love you but I just can't be around you or be your friend when you are drinking because it puts me at risk' I can't afford to risk my family because someone else is risking theirs - is that selfish??? I want to do the right thing but I don't know what that is...".
Anyone thinking "Amen, sister, pull up a chair!"????
She's doing better now but she was scared by it (thank God) and torn between feeling an obligation to help her friends who she loves, because she would do anything for her loved ones, and the realization that they know what to do, they know when the meetings are and they know the steps and they know better than to do what they are doing and know that the excuses are just that, know they are risking all they've gained....
She's shocked and appalled and scared and thankfully she's talking about it and getting those fears out. She said she doesn't feel like she is ready to be surrounded by people at that stage right now - she still needs to be around people who are in a better place, further along in sobriety than she is and maybe a few years from now she will be ready to deal with a bunch of people relapsing around her but not now. She knows that she could have a couple drinks once per week and 9 times out of 10 maybe she'd be able to stop there but she doesn't because she knows that any one of those ten times could be a one way ticket back to the rollercoaster and the problem with alcoholism is that there's no telling which drink is the one that 'does it' so the only answer for her is none, ever, forever, period.
I told her two things -
1. To me and from my selfish perspective - Her sobriety comes first, anything that risks her sobriety threatens our family so she need not feel guilty for pulling back and passing on being in the middle of all the drama. She is protecting herself, her son and her family and nobody should ever feel the need to explain or apologize for that. I love her friends too and hope they get well but until then I selfishly hope they will call someone else and leave their crap off our doorstep.
2. With her friends... she did not cause them to relapse, can't control what they do and she can't cure them. She hadn't heard that before, it comes from a different 12 step program ;-)
She hasn't verbalized it exactly but I think she's seeing herself a few years ago through my eyes and getting a glimpse of what alcoholism looks like from our perspective.
I'm proud of her. She's much smarter than I am. It took me much longer to understand what she's quickly internalized. She can pray for them and hope they 'come home' to AA but she can't force them to and can't allow their problems to divert her from focusing on what she needs to do in order to have a sane and healthy life. She's sad about that but seems to be over the guilt and determined to focus on protecting herself and her future and recognizing that it's up to them - she has no obligation to them unless and until they come back, stay sober and back up their words with action.
I think it was one of the more experienced ladies who tends to come off harsh but, as we get to know her what seems harsh is more pragmatism, who clarified it for Poh. When someone asked what her about the girls who are back in crisis she shrugged and said "They know when the meetings are". That would have seemed damned cold to me a few years ago, now I think wow, smart chick.
Ironic, huh? What might be instructive for me and for others here and why I shared this is that it reinforces something we hear all the time but struggle with - there isn't anything anyone else can do until an active alcoholic seeks help and stops on their own and trying to help can only hurt the helper and might even hurt the helpee. It's one thing to hear it from others in our shoes but I found this ...interesting. The sober alcoholics with the longest tenures in AA sorta shrugged at this and matter of factly pointed out that there is nothing to be done other than to wait until there is something that can be done. The recovering alcoholics with less time in the program like my wife and some of her friends reacted more like we do - they wanted to rush in and save the relapsers. Their reaction was just like ours with one major exception - we resist and fight the idea that there is no way to help until the relapser is ready because that idea renders us powerless and impotent and is sooooo brutally hard to accept and understand that most of us don't accept it until we prove it to ourselves by exhausting every other possibility.
My wife heard it once and immediately understood. I mean I could see on her face not just the acceptance but the comprehension - it was unmistakable. It was not "Yeah but" (our favorite retort) it was "Ah ****" followed by resignation and acceptance.
We kinda go on faith and theory rather than experiential knowledge on most of what we deem to be the truth of this disease and believing is different than knowing. The reaction of the mature recoverees (resignation and a shrug) was telling. The ability of a 'newer' recoveree to immediately comprehend and understand that which takes us a very long time was also telling.
Those who have the benefit of knowing validate that which we need a lot of time and repetition to internalize and even then we second guess. ...they don't have to take it on faith or try 100 alternatives, they know, immediately and with certainty.
Food for thought.
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What a great post, Pohsfriend. I got a lot out of that and will definitely stay subscribed so I can find it easily again in the future. There's a lot there for me to think about, and I may share it w/my RAH.
Thanks for your time and effort in typing all that out.
Thanks for your time and effort in typing all that out.
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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My rah has code tendencies to and I've seen it come out with a fellow A, my reaction was similar to yours, not our problem! Don't get involved and keep it the hell away from our family.
I'm glad she's ok, funny how things happen sometimes. Hope y'all had a wonderful holiday!
I'm glad she's ok, funny how things happen sometimes. Hope y'all had a wonderful holiday!
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LOL. So let's back up... The desire to help another human being who is sick and and going through crisis... when exactly did that become 'codie' or a form of malady?
Like anything, a well intended and compassionate response to another's issues can be taken to extremes and to an unhealthy level but let's think through some of the labels. If you are watching someone you care about self destruct and think "Yeah, whatever" then that's sick.
If you want to help and look for ways to help then you are pretty normal I think.
If you come to understand that you are enabling them and persist in trying to solve a problem that you have no ability to solve? Ok, now you may be passing into the realm of unhealthy and self-destructive behavior and what some have termed codependence which is in and of itself a poorly defined 'disorder' that lacks the distinct diagnostic criteria of more medically definable maladies like say, alcoholism.
Jesus - Major Codie - like he's gonna make blind people see? How many alcoholics did that whole water into wine trick enable anyway?
Mother Theresa - Don't get me started, total codie
Doctors - Oh puhleeeeeeez, spend all day trying to heal the sick? Get them some help fast!
Firefighters, police, counselors... sigh, hopeless cases all.
Maybe the first disorder we all need to recognize in ourselves and others is humanity. Humanity is a real b1tch to overcome sometimes and probably that's a good thing. Now, harming yourself repeatedly and over time trying to help someone with a problem only they can solve once you recognize it? That's where we tend to cross over into unhealthy and counterproductive territory.
The key component, IMHO is appropriateness. It is appropriate to care, it is appropriate to want to intercede and assist, it is appropriate to be frustrated when that assistance is rejected. It stops being appropriate at some point beyond that when we know better and choose to ignore what we've learned in favor of repeating a failed pattern.
That's where I think my wife and the lady who just shrugged and said "They know where the meeting is" are 'healthier' than many of us but they have an 'advantage' that I wanted to point out - part of our challenge is that we think/feel/hope/believe whereas they know/remember/relate/understand.
What I think we can learn from it is that like any other problem, it is much easier to 'get' a complex problem if you have all of the facts and experiential knowledge versus those times when you have half the data and are required to take the rest on faith and more equivocal data. ...for those of us with very logical brains who take a very structured approach to problem solving those missing data points are a real nuisance - we like precisely defined problems with predictable outcomes. Nebulous is a dirty word to us ;-)
Like anything, a well intended and compassionate response to another's issues can be taken to extremes and to an unhealthy level but let's think through some of the labels. If you are watching someone you care about self destruct and think "Yeah, whatever" then that's sick.
If you want to help and look for ways to help then you are pretty normal I think.
If you come to understand that you are enabling them and persist in trying to solve a problem that you have no ability to solve? Ok, now you may be passing into the realm of unhealthy and self-destructive behavior and what some have termed codependence which is in and of itself a poorly defined 'disorder' that lacks the distinct diagnostic criteria of more medically definable maladies like say, alcoholism.
Jesus - Major Codie - like he's gonna make blind people see? How many alcoholics did that whole water into wine trick enable anyway?
Mother Theresa - Don't get me started, total codie
Doctors - Oh puhleeeeeeez, spend all day trying to heal the sick? Get them some help fast!
Firefighters, police, counselors... sigh, hopeless cases all.
Maybe the first disorder we all need to recognize in ourselves and others is humanity. Humanity is a real b1tch to overcome sometimes and probably that's a good thing. Now, harming yourself repeatedly and over time trying to help someone with a problem only they can solve once you recognize it? That's where we tend to cross over into unhealthy and counterproductive territory.
The key component, IMHO is appropriateness. It is appropriate to care, it is appropriate to want to intercede and assist, it is appropriate to be frustrated when that assistance is rejected. It stops being appropriate at some point beyond that when we know better and choose to ignore what we've learned in favor of repeating a failed pattern.
That's where I think my wife and the lady who just shrugged and said "They know where the meeting is" are 'healthier' than many of us but they have an 'advantage' that I wanted to point out - part of our challenge is that we think/feel/hope/believe whereas they know/remember/relate/understand.
What I think we can learn from it is that like any other problem, it is much easier to 'get' a complex problem if you have all of the facts and experiential knowledge versus those times when you have half the data and are required to take the rest on faith and more equivocal data. ...for those of us with very logical brains who take a very structured approach to problem solving those missing data points are a real nuisance - we like precisely defined problems with predictable outcomes. Nebulous is a dirty word to us ;-)
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Part of what I have needed to learn in this experience is that my empathy is important.
However my empathy and caring is not the same as trying to do and control for another person.
My feelings might be appropriate, my actions often were not.
I don't think of codependancy as who I am, I think of it as how I behave.
However my empathy and caring is not the same as trying to do and control for another person.
My feelings might be appropriate, my actions often were not.
I don't think of codependancy as who I am, I think of it as how I behave.
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The sober alcoholics with the longest tenures in AA sorta shrugged at this and matter of factly pointed out that there is nothing to be done other than to wait until there is something that can be done. The recovering alcoholics with less time in the program like my wife and some of her friends reacted more like we do - they wanted to rush in and save the relapsers.
Some of these folks might be what we call "double winners", your wife is probably not one of these, because she sounds like she quickly accepted her inability to "fix" her friends (very uncodie).
There are some posters here who are dw's, and I always love hearing from them. A couple of the women in my alanon group are also dw's (they are recovering but have children who are active alcoholics and addicts). One woman recently experienced the death of her addicted son. I find their insights very helpful because they help me feel empathy to those who are in the throes of addiction, rather than anger and resentment, which is my natural reaction. I felt terrible hearing about her son's death, because I used to so often hope for the death of my axb. And I am someone who should know better, because I understand the finality of death very well.
I hate when these threads get sidetracked with personal misunderstandings, as this one seems to have been. I think you and your wife are an inspiration in your recovery, but please remember that not everyone is at that same place. Best wishes to you both.
Some of these folks might be what we call "double winners", your wife is probably not one of these, because she sounds like she quickly accepted her inability to "fix" her friends (very uncodie).
There are some posters here who are dw's, and I always love hearing from them. A couple of the women in my alanon group are also dw's (they are recovering but have children who are active alcoholics and addicts). One woman recently experienced the death of her addicted son. I find their insights very helpful because they help me feel empathy to those who are in the throes of addiction, rather than anger and resentment, which is my natural reaction. I felt terrible hearing about her son's death, because I used to so often hope for the death of my axb. And I am someone who should know better, because I understand the finality of death very well.
I hate when these threads get sidetracked with personal misunderstandings, as this one seems to have been. I think you and your wife are an inspiration in your recovery, but please remember that not everyone is at that same place. Best wishes to you both.
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Part of the disconnect is that if I were to enter a 12-step program it would be for adult children of NPD parents rather than Alanon.
I have only lived with an active Alcoholic for a short period of time and that was absolutely untenable for me so there was not time for any of the typical patterns to develop.
I have my own patterns of behavior to deal with that stem from longterm patterns I did deal with. Al-anon was instructive for me to a very limited degree but a 12-step program wherein step 1 does not apply is going to have shortcomings because you lose the shared experience and commonalities.
My brain inserts "I'm Sorry" when all manner of two word phrases including "bite me" or "that's nice" or "I see" would do fine so I get walking on eggshells and I get psychological abuse and I am acutely aware of the impact of being told that you are bad, less, unworthy or other disparaging terms. They devastate and they steal a person's pride and confidence. An example:
When I earned one of three graduate assistantships sought by 500 applicants I heard "Your father got an assistantship at (Ivy League School)".
So when someone who is in the midst of the turmoil and rollercoaster discounts the hard work my wife and I have gone through to get to where we are I respond in a similar fashion to how I responded when someone with a high school education spat on which graduate school I got into after 1000 hours of outworking people who were more intelligent and better prepared than I was.
..and sadly it brings out my nasty streak which I SHARLPLY curtailed above because I had to go back and erase a few zingers that would have served no purpose other than to hurt. Did you know that the root word of sarcasm means to tear flesh? I have to watch that because I have a sick gift for biting sarcasm.
Actually had a good chat on this topic with Poh this evening (in her native tongue her name means Peace of Heaven... though I tease her and misspell it 'piece' and give her the lewd raised eyebrow trick and say Grrrrrrrrrrr.... but we're playful and annoyingly in love to the point where it causes cavities... I digress.
I need to go easy on the defensiveness. We all need to go easy on judging someone who is in a different place with different tools at a different stage of a different journey.
and since I have an analogy for any/all occasions, when confronted with a choice between accidentally urinating on a nest of cranky cobras and saying something that I could interpret as a swipe at my wife or marriage it's better to go ahead and **** on the snake - they are more likely to laugh it off.
I'll go read that 90 day home study course on patience again - read the damned thing in 3 days when I got it and it didn't work worth a damn but I'll try again.
I have only lived with an active Alcoholic for a short period of time and that was absolutely untenable for me so there was not time for any of the typical patterns to develop.
I have my own patterns of behavior to deal with that stem from longterm patterns I did deal with. Al-anon was instructive for me to a very limited degree but a 12-step program wherein step 1 does not apply is going to have shortcomings because you lose the shared experience and commonalities.
My brain inserts "I'm Sorry" when all manner of two word phrases including "bite me" or "that's nice" or "I see" would do fine so I get walking on eggshells and I get psychological abuse and I am acutely aware of the impact of being told that you are bad, less, unworthy or other disparaging terms. They devastate and they steal a person's pride and confidence. An example:
When I earned one of three graduate assistantships sought by 500 applicants I heard "Your father got an assistantship at (Ivy League School)".
So when someone who is in the midst of the turmoil and rollercoaster discounts the hard work my wife and I have gone through to get to where we are I respond in a similar fashion to how I responded when someone with a high school education spat on which graduate school I got into after 1000 hours of outworking people who were more intelligent and better prepared than I was.
..and sadly it brings out my nasty streak which I SHARLPLY curtailed above because I had to go back and erase a few zingers that would have served no purpose other than to hurt. Did you know that the root word of sarcasm means to tear flesh? I have to watch that because I have a sick gift for biting sarcasm.
Actually had a good chat on this topic with Poh this evening (in her native tongue her name means Peace of Heaven... though I tease her and misspell it 'piece' and give her the lewd raised eyebrow trick and say Grrrrrrrrrrr.... but we're playful and annoyingly in love to the point where it causes cavities... I digress.
I need to go easy on the defensiveness. We all need to go easy on judging someone who is in a different place with different tools at a different stage of a different journey.
and since I have an analogy for any/all occasions, when confronted with a choice between accidentally urinating on a nest of cranky cobras and saying something that I could interpret as a swipe at my wife or marriage it's better to go ahead and **** on the snake - they are more likely to laugh it off.
I'll go read that 90 day home study course on patience again - read the damned thing in 3 days when I got it and it didn't work worth a damn but I'll try again.
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Oh yeah so talk with POH about this tonight... forgot to mention I am ADHD in addition to my other maladies - that's attention deficit hyperact......ooooh look, SHINY!
What was I? Oh yeah, talked with Poh tonight.
So we got in a tiff at one point when she wanted me to go to al-anon because her program is so good for her and I had tried al-anon and felt I had gotten what I needed from it and have OTHER needs I get from other channels that are more applicable to MY needs...
So had an epiphany tonight on that. I get a lot from listening to AA speakers and limited benefit from Al-anon because I needed to understand alcoholism - my wife has that one and is beating it's ass every day.
AA works for her because the big book is absolutely relatable to her. The speakers at opens tell HER story, it is a shared experience and commonality that forms the basis for their fellowship.
I did not grow up around alcoholism. I was around an active alcoholic for a few months and lived with one for less than two before I made the heartbreaking decision to part ways unless she dried out. I go to an al-anon meeting and hear people talk about years and years on the rollercoaster and can't relate because it did not sneak up on me. I met my first alcoholic (that I was aware of) as she was heading toward rock bottom at 150 MPH and she went splat before I knew what was happening.
So it would be easy for me to look at someone who JUST got involved with their first alcoholic and say "OK, so here's the deal - tell them tomorrow that if they get sober and work to stay sober great, you are in, otherwise run like hell". ...but for someone who spent 20 years with an alcoholic who has progressed slowly from drinker to drunker? I can't tell them jack sh-t because I don't know a damned thing about the problems they have.
I think 12 step programs have a great deal of merit but you need a group of people whose step 1 is the same as yours. My life became unmanageable due to alcohol for a few weeks and I hate to say it but I kinda opened the cockpit door, handed her a chute, kicked her out the door then pulled back on the stick and hoped she'd pull her chute but I was NOT going to let the plane carrying my life, my teen child, my career and everything else I'd worked 40 years for wind up in a fiery crater.
...so I may do 12 steps. But not related to alcohol. If I do it will be people who are 40 and still walking on eggshells and apologizing because they've been conditioned to assume they are to blame for everything and have other weird patterns to work out. I didn't have the alcoholic mom. I had the mom who saw that the 11 year old cleaned the whole kitchen after thanksgiving and flung a plate at his head for loading the dishwasher wrong.
I can see the patterns where many alcoholics and their partners exacerbate one another's demons but we're a little weird (lol, Asia is a little land mass) ..seriously though our core issues are her fear of abandonment and my fear of rejection. That's why we stick - she is loving and accepting and ...I know, this one is shocking... wait for it...It's possible that I am protective and extremely devoted... I know, I know, I hide it really well but there's some truth to that. ;-)
Oh... here's how long someone whose codie conditioning stems from being around NPD holds on to silly ****... So 22 years ago, exactly half my life ago, I got that comment about grad scholl and how dad went to a better one?
...two weeks ago that school dad went to hired me to develop a strategic roadmap for something they couldn't figure out. Not that I was determined to hold onto that and prove a demonstrably stupid statement absolutely incorrect or anything.
...My dog is smarter than I am, I will hold on to sh1t for 22 years. My dog? she kicks some grass over it and goes on with her life. Dogs are smarter than we are.
What was I? Oh yeah, talked with Poh tonight.
So we got in a tiff at one point when she wanted me to go to al-anon because her program is so good for her and I had tried al-anon and felt I had gotten what I needed from it and have OTHER needs I get from other channels that are more applicable to MY needs...
So had an epiphany tonight on that. I get a lot from listening to AA speakers and limited benefit from Al-anon because I needed to understand alcoholism - my wife has that one and is beating it's ass every day.
AA works for her because the big book is absolutely relatable to her. The speakers at opens tell HER story, it is a shared experience and commonality that forms the basis for their fellowship.
I did not grow up around alcoholism. I was around an active alcoholic for a few months and lived with one for less than two before I made the heartbreaking decision to part ways unless she dried out. I go to an al-anon meeting and hear people talk about years and years on the rollercoaster and can't relate because it did not sneak up on me. I met my first alcoholic (that I was aware of) as she was heading toward rock bottom at 150 MPH and she went splat before I knew what was happening.
So it would be easy for me to look at someone who JUST got involved with their first alcoholic and say "OK, so here's the deal - tell them tomorrow that if they get sober and work to stay sober great, you are in, otherwise run like hell". ...but for someone who spent 20 years with an alcoholic who has progressed slowly from drinker to drunker? I can't tell them jack sh-t because I don't know a damned thing about the problems they have.
I think 12 step programs have a great deal of merit but you need a group of people whose step 1 is the same as yours. My life became unmanageable due to alcohol for a few weeks and I hate to say it but I kinda opened the cockpit door, handed her a chute, kicked her out the door then pulled back on the stick and hoped she'd pull her chute but I was NOT going to let the plane carrying my life, my teen child, my career and everything else I'd worked 40 years for wind up in a fiery crater.
...so I may do 12 steps. But not related to alcohol. If I do it will be people who are 40 and still walking on eggshells and apologizing because they've been conditioned to assume they are to blame for everything and have other weird patterns to work out. I didn't have the alcoholic mom. I had the mom who saw that the 11 year old cleaned the whole kitchen after thanksgiving and flung a plate at his head for loading the dishwasher wrong.
I can see the patterns where many alcoholics and their partners exacerbate one another's demons but we're a little weird (lol, Asia is a little land mass) ..seriously though our core issues are her fear of abandonment and my fear of rejection. That's why we stick - she is loving and accepting and ...I know, this one is shocking... wait for it...It's possible that I am protective and extremely devoted... I know, I know, I hide it really well but there's some truth to that. ;-)
Oh... here's how long someone whose codie conditioning stems from being around NPD holds on to silly ****... So 22 years ago, exactly half my life ago, I got that comment about grad scholl and how dad went to a better one?
...two weeks ago that school dad went to hired me to develop a strategic roadmap for something they couldn't figure out. Not that I was determined to hold onto that and prove a demonstrably stupid statement absolutely incorrect or anything.
...My dog is smarter than I am, I will hold on to sh1t for 22 years. My dog? she kicks some grass over it and goes on with her life. Dogs are smarter than we are.
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I think 12 step programs have a great deal of merit but you need a group of people whose step 1 is the same as yours. My life became unmanageable due to alcohol for a few weeks and I hate to say it but I kinda opened the cockpit door, handed her a chute, kicked her out the door then pulled back on the stick and hoped she'd pull her chute but I was NOT going to let the plane carrying my life, my teen child, my career and everything else I'd worked 40 years for wind up in a fiery crater.
I've been trying to figure out why your story is so much different. Could you imagine if your wife were to slowly and secretly become an alcoholic at THIS point in your relationship, where you already have your lives commingled and your best interests completely intertwined and then she slowly and surely started unraveling things that were previously amazing and beautiful and blissfully simple? That would be where I currently stand. My husband is taking my dreams and my family aboard his sinking ship.
I've been trying to figure out why your story is so much different. Could you imagine if your wife were to slowly and secretly become an alcoholic at THIS point in your relationship, where you already have your lives commingled and your best interests completely intertwined and then she slowly and surely started unraveling things that were previously amazing and beautiful and blissfully simple? That would be where I currently stand. My husband is taking my dreams and my family aboard his sinking ship.
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Not to imply that your situation was easy, but you make it sound so simple when in reality there are varying degrees of messiness as it pertains to kicking someone off the plane. I will never ever be able to kick my husband off the plane because we have a shared stake in our children, who's lives we will BOTH always be fixtures in, from now until their high school & college graduations, weddings, holidays, grand kids...FOREVER.
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Originally Posted by Stung 
I think 12 step programs have a great deal of merit but you need a group of people whose step 1 is the same as yours. My life became unmanageable due to alcohol for a few weeks and I hate to say it but I kinda opened the cockpit door, handed her a chute, kicked her out the door then pulled back on the stick and hoped she'd pull her chute but I was NOT going to let the plane carrying my life, my teen child, my career and everything else I'd worked 40 years for wind up in a fiery crater.
I've been trying to figure out why your story is so much different. Could you imagine if your wife were to slowly and secretly become an alcoholic at THIS point in your relationship, where you already have your lives commingled and your best interests completely intertwined and then she slowly and surely started unraveling things that were previously amazing and beautiful and blissfully simple? That would be where I currently stand. My husband is taking my dreams and my family aboard his sinking ship.
I've been trying to figure out why your story is so much different. Could you imagine if your wife were to slowly and secretly become an alcoholic at THIS point in your relationship, where you already have your lives commingled and your best interests completely intertwined and then she slowly and surely started unraveling things that were previously amazing and beautiful and blissfully simple? That would be where I currently stand. My husband is taking my dreams and my family aboard his sinking ship.
My own alcoholism "crept up" over the years due to many things not in the initial equation and not able to be "factored in" so easily. My mother's alcoholism was the same, and I got dragged a long long time before partially letting go until her death.
I have read many stories here, as a lurker and later as a member, and I don't think that that many of the people involved have a choice but to deal with the alcoholic in some way, shape or form and can't just drop them off with a family member and tell them to get clean or stay away. [Either from child and custody issues, long term entangled economics, physical threats to yourself or family].
The terrific thing about a forum is that there are many threads to follow, and perhaps one will be a close "fit" to your own situation. But we cannot abstract a particular to a whole with this many variables in the base mix. Humans are hard to measure--our magic and our sometimes dark mystery.
The other issue seems to be time. Whether we like it or not, a year, two years, three years of sobriety is really a very short recovery period in the lifetime of an alcoholic, particularly one who started young (as I did) and may have many mitigating factors such as alcoholic parents, abuse, etc. which tends to surface (emotional triggers) even when we think we have our ducks in a row. Relapse is really just one bad day, or angry fight, or simple temptation, or missed AA meeting away for many people. That's just part of the territory, and really scary for non-addicts families and for addicts as well.
You can plan your moves in a chess game, but you cannot always predict those triggers (unexpected moves) no matter how clever you are. If someone else besides yourself is the addict, this really becomes statistically much much harder.
So here we do our best, share what's worked, and wish each other well and congratulate each success and, most importantly, be kind but honest when another is suffering, even if their choices are not ones we would make.
I have learned so much from each of you and every story I have read. I actually am lucky in that maintaining sobriety is not very difficult for me these days. But everything I read and learn here helps me understand how I got to this place, how I've harmed those around me with my drinking, and what I can do to make it a bit better.
Taking what is helpful and saying peace to the rest is darn good strategy.
May 2014 be a great year for all of us, Family, friends, or recover(ed)(ing) addicts. . .
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I agree, hawkeye! I'm not trying to argumentative and I realize that I'm still new here, so I'm not trying to ruffle feathers. Poh posted his positive update and his current scenario is actually very similar to mine, but his backstory is leaps and bounds different.
Although I think there is a large population of people here with similar stories: love, marriage, kids, and then alcoholism creeps in slowly and starts stealing your happiness bit by bit.
Although I think there is a large population of people here with similar stories: love, marriage, kids, and then alcoholism creeps in slowly and starts stealing your happiness bit by bit.
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hi stung,
i think that poh's story might be different from many here, because he is totally independent (from what i read) of his wife in many aspects.
most people on this board have expectations of their A spouses to contribute financially, socially, or just be a consistent presence. poh loves is wife but he sounds like he controls the major household responsibilities which means that she can focus on her being sober without the other stuff. i am not implying this is negative, but most households don't run like that.
i think that poh's story might be different from many here, because he is totally independent (from what i read) of his wife in many aspects.
most people on this board have expectations of their A spouses to contribute financially, socially, or just be a consistent presence. poh loves is wife but he sounds like he controls the major household responsibilities which means that she can focus on her being sober without the other stuff. i am not implying this is negative, but most households don't run like that.
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MissFixIt, that's because there weren't pre existing expectations that were previously being met. If I met my husband in his current state I would have kicked his ass out of my plane too and never looked back.
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I wish to make a public statement to you, Hawkeye. You have frequently brought comfort (for me) with your presence on this board. I always give careful consideration to your words.....the roads that you have walked have tempered you with a lot of wisdom.I am so grateful that you come here and share that with us.
Just felt moved to get that off my chest.......
dandylion
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This might be a little off topic, but here goes. I have the privilege of the block function and I will be using it freely.
I agree with this. The one thing that really gives me pause about "success stories" is that the story isn't over yet. If addiction is with us until death, then it isn't "over" until we're gone. One, two, three years? That's awesome, it takes strength. I wish you luck. But the journey isn't over yet.
Right, agreed. And I can say for myself that mitigating my own mental health issues (mild anxiety and a tendency towards depression) is a daily thing, and I have to be mindful of it all the time. ALL the time.
One common thread I've noticed since I started posting here is that the VAST majority of us come from deeply flawed, dysfunctional families of origin. As kids and young adults it's plain that we came up with ways of coping that helped us survive but that aren't functional in the day to day of family, adult, life business. Some of us overcompensate with the nice things, nice houses, overachievement (us children of narcissists, especially) but find that when you peel back a couple of layers the wounds are still laid bare and sore and hurting. They're deep, too. We latch on to sick people reliving these mortal traumas over and over again, and for us, "success" would be fixing the pain that causes someone else to use and abuse us. To me, that's the very definition of codependency. Looking a liar and abuser in the face, looking at someone who hurts us, our children, and puts our very well-being on the line for themselves, and saying, "Okay, I will handle this too. I will weather this too. I still love you (don't leave me)."
Once violence, addiction, manipulation, cheating, whatever, is part of your relationship, it's always there. How you deal with it is up to you, but I won't submit myself to that any longer.
I've lived through a lifetime of unbearable things and come out on the other side a relatively happy person, who works and is glad to work, who volunteers in the community, who is a responsible citizen and parent. I **** up sometimes and I own it, sometimes I feel shame and embarrassment, and take steps to prevent myself from ******* up in that way again.
We're just sacks of meat hurtling through space trying to live our best lives, which makes no sense at all and yet it is what it is. For me, thinking I am special and different and above the fray is a huge mistake. It's part of my sick thinking that got me into a relationship with an abusive alcoholic in the first place. We weren't like those others -- our love was different and special -- except how we were just like all the other sacks of meat in every way. I remember reading Codependent No More for the first time and thinking it didn't apply to me and my relationship with my alcoholic -- we were entirely too smart for that. All the other alcoholics were so pedestrian and lowbrow.
Are people capable of great change? Absolutely. Could I love someone who also hurt or hurts me? I love my parents, so, yes, obviously. But relieving myself of the obligation to put my dreams, health, and well-being on the line while the love of my life went down in flames was one of the bravest things I've ever done. It was probably the most humane opportunity I could have given him -- a chance to fall on his face and get back up again by himself. He chose other things. Every time I breathed a sigh of relief that he seemed healthy for real and appeared to be working a program, he took the opportunity to relapse. It was also one of the most humane things I could offer my children, the opportunity to grow up with a safe, functional home. Telling a group of traumatized, abused people that they're doing it wrong is really yucky. It should be safe to say so.
I did not have the privilege of leaning on an abundant bank account or opting to be a one-income family. Simply put, booting him was a matter of survival. He took more than he gave, emotionally, physically, especially financially. I got a second job to replace his income, in addition to my white collar corporate job, and I am happy to have it. Sometimes I wish I had the opportunity, money, and time to work on myself -- I need it. Since I don't, I come here for peace. I am offended when I am told by my comrades here that my problem is that I didn't love my STBXAH enough or give him enough space to make mistakes and figure things out. That's my narcissistic mother talking. That's exceptional thinking. Lashing out at other posters for disagreeing with a pat explanation of events? Whew. But people who aren't codependent don't spend this much time telling others how and what to think while defending their special circumstances.
You can plan your moves in a chess game, but you cannot always predict those triggers (unexpected moves) no matter how clever you are.
Whether we like it or not, a year, two years, three years of sobriety is really a very short recovery period in the lifetime of an alcoholic, particularly one who started young (as I did) and may have many mitigating factors such as alcoholic parents, abuse, etc. which tends to surface (emotional triggers) even when we think we have our ducks in a row. Relapse is really just one bad day, or angry fight, or simple temptation, or missed AA meeting away for many people. That's just part of the territory, and really scary for non-addicts families and for addicts as well.
One common thread I've noticed since I started posting here is that the VAST majority of us come from deeply flawed, dysfunctional families of origin. As kids and young adults it's plain that we came up with ways of coping that helped us survive but that aren't functional in the day to day of family, adult, life business. Some of us overcompensate with the nice things, nice houses, overachievement (us children of narcissists, especially) but find that when you peel back a couple of layers the wounds are still laid bare and sore and hurting. They're deep, too. We latch on to sick people reliving these mortal traumas over and over again, and for us, "success" would be fixing the pain that causes someone else to use and abuse us. To me, that's the very definition of codependency. Looking a liar and abuser in the face, looking at someone who hurts us, our children, and puts our very well-being on the line for themselves, and saying, "Okay, I will handle this too. I will weather this too. I still love you (don't leave me)."
Once violence, addiction, manipulation, cheating, whatever, is part of your relationship, it's always there. How you deal with it is up to you, but I won't submit myself to that any longer.
I've lived through a lifetime of unbearable things and come out on the other side a relatively happy person, who works and is glad to work, who volunteers in the community, who is a responsible citizen and parent. I **** up sometimes and I own it, sometimes I feel shame and embarrassment, and take steps to prevent myself from ******* up in that way again.
We're just sacks of meat hurtling through space trying to live our best lives, which makes no sense at all and yet it is what it is. For me, thinking I am special and different and above the fray is a huge mistake. It's part of my sick thinking that got me into a relationship with an abusive alcoholic in the first place. We weren't like those others -- our love was different and special -- except how we were just like all the other sacks of meat in every way. I remember reading Codependent No More for the first time and thinking it didn't apply to me and my relationship with my alcoholic -- we were entirely too smart for that. All the other alcoholics were so pedestrian and lowbrow.
Are people capable of great change? Absolutely. Could I love someone who also hurt or hurts me? I love my parents, so, yes, obviously. But relieving myself of the obligation to put my dreams, health, and well-being on the line while the love of my life went down in flames was one of the bravest things I've ever done. It was probably the most humane opportunity I could have given him -- a chance to fall on his face and get back up again by himself. He chose other things. Every time I breathed a sigh of relief that he seemed healthy for real and appeared to be working a program, he took the opportunity to relapse. It was also one of the most humane things I could offer my children, the opportunity to grow up with a safe, functional home. Telling a group of traumatized, abused people that they're doing it wrong is really yucky. It should be safe to say so.
I did not have the privilege of leaning on an abundant bank account or opting to be a one-income family. Simply put, booting him was a matter of survival. He took more than he gave, emotionally, physically, especially financially. I got a second job to replace his income, in addition to my white collar corporate job, and I am happy to have it. Sometimes I wish I had the opportunity, money, and time to work on myself -- I need it. Since I don't, I come here for peace. I am offended when I am told by my comrades here that my problem is that I didn't love my STBXAH enough or give him enough space to make mistakes and figure things out. That's my narcissistic mother talking. That's exceptional thinking. Lashing out at other posters for disagreeing with a pat explanation of events? Whew. But people who aren't codependent don't spend this much time telling others how and what to think while defending their special circumstances.
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