Atheists
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Atheists
I truly don't mean to start a religious debate. There is a lot of language in the AA and Alanon programs about God or a Higher Power. I wonder if a person is non-religious, is an atheist, how they typically deal with this part of the recovery concepts. Has anyone dealt with this? Simplified, I guess my question is, how does AA work for an atheist, or does it?
the girl can't help it
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: splendraville
Posts: 5,599
Even the Readers Digest is writting articles on how our brains are hard wired to believe in something. That having faith actually helps our brain's chemistry. i don't personally believe there can be a true athiest. I believe there are a lot of people who don't believe they can be helped or, who are pi$$ed off at God as they understand Him. Asking questions such if there is a God then why are there starving babies,crime,divorce,war? As far as i can tell the reason for these things is because we have free will and this is what we are choosing and the people who don't choose war,divorce,crime, and to stare and kill babies are too involved in their own little worlds to try and make a difference with their fellow humans. which is why it continues.
As far as the 12 steps go they probably won't work unless a person can say at least to themself that they believe a "higher power" will restore them to sanity. I mean after all it is our best thinking that got us into our messes.
Every recovering addict is a miracle in the works!! I know that there are many people who came into the fellowship saying that they did not believe in a HP that wanted what the others had so they had to get with it and find a power greater than themselves before they could go on to work the steps. Then others who just went ahead and dropped out and kept using.
There are other "programs" that don't bring the HP aspect into it's program.
I personally have known alot of addicts and the ones who recover seem to all have faith and hope in God in common!! How can a person recover and not be thankful to be out of their prison?
By the way your question is probably the most asked question of all concerning AA and the 12 steps. I hope that my responce helps......
As far as the 12 steps go they probably won't work unless a person can say at least to themself that they believe a "higher power" will restore them to sanity. I mean after all it is our best thinking that got us into our messes.
Every recovering addict is a miracle in the works!! I know that there are many people who came into the fellowship saying that they did not believe in a HP that wanted what the others had so they had to get with it and find a power greater than themselves before they could go on to work the steps. Then others who just went ahead and dropped out and kept using.
There are other "programs" that don't bring the HP aspect into it's program.
I personally have known alot of addicts and the ones who recover seem to all have faith and hope in God in common!! How can a person recover and not be thankful to be out of their prison?
By the way your question is probably the most asked question of all concerning AA and the 12 steps. I hope that my responce helps......
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Star's Hollow
Posts: 615
Jfriend -
I have to respond to this because it has affected me so deeply. I had your same concern when I started the program. I couldn't imagine a relationship with an HP and, frankly, didn't want one. I grew up going to church religously (no pun intended). I had a bad experience and turned my back on everything related to God. I even quickly flipped the channel when I came across one of those religous shows on TV. I ddin't want to think about it at all.
For me, the steps worked their magic. In step 2, I accepted the slight possibility that something outside myself could help me in my life. Step 3 came to me like a ton of bricks and I feel so much better about everything in my life now. My relationship with my HP is probably unorthodox but it works for me. I think every person's relationship is different and is exactly what they need.
I don't think that you have to believe in God to make the steps work. I think that you have to be open to the fact that you don't control everything - that maybe there is a plan for you - that maybe there is something out there that is willing and able to help you. I think that getting to the point where you have an open mind is the most important part. For me, once I stopped fighting, things started happening. For me, that's the way every step has worked so far. Give up the control - let it happen and it does.
Hope that helps -
L
I have to respond to this because it has affected me so deeply. I had your same concern when I started the program. I couldn't imagine a relationship with an HP and, frankly, didn't want one. I grew up going to church religously (no pun intended). I had a bad experience and turned my back on everything related to God. I even quickly flipped the channel when I came across one of those religous shows on TV. I ddin't want to think about it at all.
For me, the steps worked their magic. In step 2, I accepted the slight possibility that something outside myself could help me in my life. Step 3 came to me like a ton of bricks and I feel so much better about everything in my life now. My relationship with my HP is probably unorthodox but it works for me. I think every person's relationship is different and is exactly what they need.
I don't think that you have to believe in God to make the steps work. I think that you have to be open to the fact that you don't control everything - that maybe there is a plan for you - that maybe there is something out there that is willing and able to help you. I think that getting to the point where you have an open mind is the most important part. For me, once I stopped fighting, things started happening. For me, that's the way every step has worked so far. Give up the control - let it happen and it does.
Hope that helps -
L
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: That's what I'd like to know.
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Hi Jfriend, and welcome!
http://www.region5oa.org/bigbook/chapter_4.html
That link will take you to an online copy of Chapter 4 of the AA BigBook, titled "We Agnostics". 12 step philosophy suggests that you believe in a power greater than yourself. It doesn't have to be someone elses idea of "God". The power greater than yourself can be the collective wisdom of the recoverees before you. I've heard of a lot more whimsical things, too... like trees and animals and coffee makers. Reading the chapter may help you.
Hugs!
Smoke
http://www.region5oa.org/bigbook/chapter_4.html
That link will take you to an online copy of Chapter 4 of the AA BigBook, titled "We Agnostics". 12 step philosophy suggests that you believe in a power greater than yourself. It doesn't have to be someone elses idea of "God". The power greater than yourself can be the collective wisdom of the recoverees before you. I've heard of a lot more whimsical things, too... like trees and animals and coffee makers. Reading the chapter may help you.
Hugs!
Smoke
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Thanks Lorelai and Smoke-
I just read a whole lot of the Big Book.
So if you can't do step 2, you can't do it, eh?
If an atheist A CAN come to terms with the HP concept, what if the spouse won't? This must happen a lot.
I never knew the fundamental spiritual basis of the 12 steps.
Now I feel even more stuck. I don't think I could do it. I guess I don't have to, but ..... I understand why J can't. (sorry, maybe I shouldn't say that)
I just read a whole lot of the Big Book.
So if you can't do step 2, you can't do it, eh?
If an atheist A CAN come to terms with the HP concept, what if the spouse won't? This must happen a lot.
I never knew the fundamental spiritual basis of the 12 steps.
Now I feel even more stuck. I don't think I could do it. I guess I don't have to, but ..... I understand why J can't. (sorry, maybe I shouldn't say that)
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: northern minnesota
Posts: 269
each of us travels this path of recovery alone. we may try to help our SO see things, but recovery is really about ourselves. our recovery. not a shared recovery but a personal one.
i lost my faith in god for many years... many. i came into this program and said oh great its a faith thing. and i was hung up on that for weeks. until i realized i could make anything outside of myself my HP. for me it was the sun. the sun was warm, i felt cold inside. the sun made things grow. i felt like my touch was wilting. the sun was constant. not all over like my emotions. the sun made people relax. not like my constant ranting and raving trying to save the A from himself.
my sponsor said.. good. anything outside of myself could be my HP. and i prayed to the sun. thanked the sun. talked to the sun. it may sound silly but it never occured to me that the sun came about as a gift from the HP i now look to.
i spent a lot of time analyzing the idea of a HP. when all i had to do was open myself up to the "idea" that there was something larger than myself in this world. something more powerful than myself. and part of that realization was,,,,, ok... so who directed me to alanon? i sure feel better when i am working my program. i sure met a lot of people who understand me. i sure did the right thing this time going to meetings. i guess the sun, or my HP, or whatever. knew i needed this. and that is step two.
one step at a time, one day at a time, and that little crack in the armor of our defenses to admit the world didnt revolve around me,, that i couldnt change anything, and that i am doing the best job i can.
hope this helped
i lost my faith in god for many years... many. i came into this program and said oh great its a faith thing. and i was hung up on that for weeks. until i realized i could make anything outside of myself my HP. for me it was the sun. the sun was warm, i felt cold inside. the sun made things grow. i felt like my touch was wilting. the sun was constant. not all over like my emotions. the sun made people relax. not like my constant ranting and raving trying to save the A from himself.
my sponsor said.. good. anything outside of myself could be my HP. and i prayed to the sun. thanked the sun. talked to the sun. it may sound silly but it never occured to me that the sun came about as a gift from the HP i now look to.
i spent a lot of time analyzing the idea of a HP. when all i had to do was open myself up to the "idea" that there was something larger than myself in this world. something more powerful than myself. and part of that realization was,,,,, ok... so who directed me to alanon? i sure feel better when i am working my program. i sure met a lot of people who understand me. i sure did the right thing this time going to meetings. i guess the sun, or my HP, or whatever. knew i needed this. and that is step two.
one step at a time, one day at a time, and that little crack in the armor of our defenses to admit the world didnt revolve around me,, that i couldnt change anything, and that i am doing the best job i can.
hope this helped
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Star's Hollow
Posts: 615
First I would say that I've learned that whether my spouse can comes to term with something is not a determination of what I can do.
Secondly, I've learned that I can do anything.
Glad you're thinking about it and asking questions. Your answers will come - give it some time.
L
Secondly, I've learned that I can do anything.
Glad you're thinking about it and asking questions. Your answers will come - give it some time.
L
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NY
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Quetsins-
THank you for telling about starting out with the idea of the sun. It gave me pause.
Lorelai-
I have to think about these ideas about my life/decisions as separate from my spouse. I have encountered a sticky point here, before. (THe old "he" should make me happy problem).
I am glad I came here to confront some of these thoughts before I talked more to J. All I knew before is that I didn't know what to do. I guess I still don't, but I know more things NOT to do.
THank you for telling about starting out with the idea of the sun. It gave me pause.
Lorelai-
I have to think about these ideas about my life/decisions as separate from my spouse. I have encountered a sticky point here, before. (THe old "he" should make me happy problem).
I am glad I came here to confront some of these thoughts before I talked more to J. All I knew before is that I didn't know what to do. I guess I still don't, but I know more things NOT to do.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 110
Hi JFriend,
I can't really add anything to what the folks before me have said or what I've read and written recently, but here's a thread about exactly the same issue written mostly from the A side:
Anyone dealt with spirituality like this? - from the Alcoholics Anonymous board
I hope you find it helpful.
James
(who's stuck squarely in the middle of step 3 - I keep parsing these things word by word)
I can't really add anything to what the folks before me have said or what I've read and written recently, but here's a thread about exactly the same issue written mostly from the A side:
Anyone dealt with spirituality like this? - from the Alcoholics Anonymous board
I hope you find it helpful.
James
(who's stuck squarely in the middle of step 3 - I keep parsing these things word by word)
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Ayer's Cliff, Quebec
Posts: 803
I just hung in with A.A until I was comfortable to the allusions to God. I'm an athiest but I do believe in a power greater than myself just not in the conventional religious way.
And A.A has worked for me for 6+ years now.
Ngaire
And A.A has worked for me for 6+ years now.
Ngaire
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
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Originally Posted by Jfriend
Quetsins-
THank you for telling about starting out with the idea of the sun. It gave me pause.
Lorelai-
I have to think about these ideas about my life/decisions as separate from my spouse. I have encountered a sticky point here, before. (THe old "he" should make me happy problem).
I am glad I came here to confront some of these thoughts before I talked more to J. All I knew before is that I didn't know what to do. I guess I still don't, but I know more things NOT to do.
THank you for telling about starting out with the idea of the sun. It gave me pause.
Lorelai-
I have to think about these ideas about my life/decisions as separate from my spouse. I have encountered a sticky point here, before. (THe old "he" should make me happy problem).
I am glad I came here to confront some of these thoughts before I talked more to J. All I knew before is that I didn't know what to do. I guess I still don't, but I know more things NOT to do.
Dancing To My Own Beat
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: I don't know what kind of state I'm in
Posts: 1,326
Jfriend,
The part in italics, "as we understood him", gives us the chance to interpret or re- interpret the healing power that underscores the AA program. There is a healing power to the steps. Whether or not someone believes in a traditional interpretation of God, they can't deny the healing power of a personality transformation. If they absolutely reject the 12 steps because they cannot glean from it what they need without attaching traditional spirituality to it, there are other programs designed for alcoholics that are atheists. I don't have any dealings with anyone who has chosen one of these programs, except for someone on the alcoholism forum. They are worth a try if nothing else. Check SMART recovery, Rational Recovery. The main thing is that the alcoholic must want recovery enough to be willing to struggle through and change their lifestyle. If they aren't ready for that, no program is going to help. The bottom line is no excuse can stop somebody from recovering if they want it, and are willing to go through the struggle to get it. Hugs, Magic
The part in italics, "as we understood him", gives us the chance to interpret or re- interpret the healing power that underscores the AA program. There is a healing power to the steps. Whether or not someone believes in a traditional interpretation of God, they can't deny the healing power of a personality transformation. If they absolutely reject the 12 steps because they cannot glean from it what they need without attaching traditional spirituality to it, there are other programs designed for alcoholics that are atheists. I don't have any dealings with anyone who has chosen one of these programs, except for someone on the alcoholism forum. They are worth a try if nothing else. Check SMART recovery, Rational Recovery. The main thing is that the alcoholic must want recovery enough to be willing to struggle through and change their lifestyle. If they aren't ready for that, no program is going to help. The bottom line is no excuse can stop somebody from recovering if they want it, and are willing to go through the struggle to get it. Hugs, Magic
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Thanks magic-
I don't know where J stands with the AA program, and the spirituality. I was reminded as I read today to keep in mind the difference in the meaning of spirituality and religion.
It was valuble for me to read the actual "Big Book" words. I never understood what the "program" is, still don't, but I have a better idea now. I posted on another thread (where it probably didn't belong) that the idea that "Sometimes the best way to help is not to help!� is frustrating for someone who came here wanting to know how to help. But I understand better why that is.
I don't know where J stands with the AA program, and the spirituality. I was reminded as I read today to keep in mind the difference in the meaning of spirituality and religion.
It was valuble for me to read the actual "Big Book" words. I never understood what the "program" is, still don't, but I have a better idea now. I posted on another thread (where it probably didn't belong) that the idea that "Sometimes the best way to help is not to help!� is frustrating for someone who came here wanting to know how to help. But I understand better why that is.
Dancing To My Own Beat
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: I don't know what kind of state I'm in
Posts: 1,326
It is frustrating. We alanons start with frustration, build it into resentment, and fear, and generally drive ourselves crazy to the point that we need help as much as the alcoholic. Of course, many of us are predisposed to do this to ourselves because of the way we were raised, and the way we learned to deal with situations growing up. It is hard to let the world take care of itself, when we know what's best for everyone (LOL)! It's not that we can't try to help people, we just don't let it go when it is clear that they don't want or need or accept our help. Then we have become controlling, pushy, overbearing, and a general pain in the butt. And we haven't helped at all. That is where we learn to let go. Hugs, Magic
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: over yonder
Posts: 1,548
Jfriend.... Just so you know you or your friend is not alone. I believe in God only because of the moon, stars, flowers and all of mother natures beautiful wonders.
I still squirm in meetings when Higher Power is mentioned. Ever since 1978. I envy those who have a strong blief, I however used the group and the meetings for my HP. (Both AA and Al-Anon0 Meetings are wonderfull, and sponsers are great. I love the Lords Prayer, and the Serenity Prayer. but when I pray for my faith to be strengthened it feels like I am talking to a brick wall, No feeling that I have been heard. However everything else about the program and its members kept me sober. I am Thakfull for that.
At least I learned that nothing is worth drinking over. The program works for everyone If they want it. Of course we know, the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking, BEST ALWAYS Clancy46
I still squirm in meetings when Higher Power is mentioned. Ever since 1978. I envy those who have a strong blief, I however used the group and the meetings for my HP. (Both AA and Al-Anon0 Meetings are wonderfull, and sponsers are great. I love the Lords Prayer, and the Serenity Prayer. but when I pray for my faith to be strengthened it feels like I am talking to a brick wall, No feeling that I have been heard. However everything else about the program and its members kept me sober. I am Thakfull for that.
At least I learned that nothing is worth drinking over. The program works for everyone If they want it. Of course we know, the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking, BEST ALWAYS Clancy46
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Upstate New York
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If "God" doesn't do it for you, what about "the universe," "The Force," "the collective unconscious," "the godess," "Mother Earth," "the greater good,"..............there are a lot of valid reasons that many people have resistence to the concept of God, especially as it has been presented/used in Christianity.....Fortunately, there are a lot of other "higher powers" out there; the trick is finding the one that feels true to you.
freya
freya
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