dandylion

Booo----and everyone---please see this article which is posted today by Pelican,

Thanks,

dandylion

Booo

That was awesome, thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

This comes to my question again.

At the end "help me"
THAT part.

He HAS asked me for help and I told him I could not help him, he had to find his path on his own, but damnit, lol, he has asked. I am thinking well, I HAVE the book myself along with if you loved me you'd stop! codependent no more and a few more at home that are a bit lame, but I read them anyway.
I am doing much better..much better in my detachment...much better and if I am the only one who will pat myself on the back I will do it.

I am also willing to fight for my relationship, so it's on the kindle and I can "loan" it to him and I can get it right back if he has no interest. Or just tell him I have it wait and see if he asks for it. He has a lot of shame. There is a lot of secrecy.

A friend here, the other night wanted to stop by the house "for happy hour". AH was not at home so I said that was fine. Had he BEEN here, I don't know what I would have said. They were bringing the booze (a bottle of wine and a six pack) but I had lemonade because I can't drink and go on with my night. I have no idea what to do in those situations. None, zero.

I am here to learn, so I thank you all for your responses.

DesertEyes

Here is a direct link:

10 Ways to Tell When an Addict or Alcoholic is Full of Crap, reposted - SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information

Mike

PohsFriend

Poor thing. Man it is so miserable when we are trying to figure out how to help and not a damned thing is working isn't it?

Pelican kinda nailed it an given your history I'm betting you read that and thought "Yeah, crap... I know he's quacking and if he was serious he'd find a book on his own".

Just makes you want to scream doesn't it? Get yourself a good book that helps you improve some aspect of yourself, or makes you laugh, or what the hell... get 50 shades and giggle with your friends about it but you know the answer to your own question and if only his problem was illiteracy then it would be so much easier but he can read and he can choose whether to pick up a book or a bottle and there isn't a damned thing we can do to make them WANT to pick up the book until they do

Booo

I must not be clear. I feel like I am picking a fight with you all. Am I?

I am working on me. I read a LOT both a related books and relaxing vacation trash.

I am not offering to help. In fact, My recent words are "I am not your bottle police" "I am not your master" "I am not your controller" "I am not in charge of your drinking", and most recently "no, I can't help you quit, that's on you"

So when I come upon a book that is based on science and not god (because he is an atheist) I wonder if he knows about it and if I am being an aZZ withholding info.

We are days more in a semi isolated location where the main pastime seems to be drinking. He is not drinking, for a week now, but he is white knuckling because right now there's not much else he can do that I am awre of or asking about.

I have known alcoholism my whole life. I grew up with an unopened copy of the big book in my childhood home. Too much for my father to deal with.

I keep asking becaue the reviews are mixed so I will make up my mind after more pondering,

If everyone said NO don't do it I would not do it
As everyone says stop counting the bottles and I have stopped that, this would be simple.

Sigh. But What is? Rotfl.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a wonderful day!

HopefulinFLA

Boo, maybe you should ask him if he's interested in a book. Why second guess the whole thing.

My AH, also an athiest, had expressed a desire to get sober. I told him I'd seen several books on Rational Recovery and asked if he was interested. He enthusiastically said yes, and he devoured them cover to cover.

These are the books I bought:

When AA Doesn't Work For You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol: Albert Ellis: 9780942637533: Amazon.com: Books

Sober for Good: New Solutions for Drinking Problems -- Advice from Those Who Have Succeeded: Anne M. Fletcher M.S. R.D.: 0046442219075: Amazon.com: Books

The Small Book (Rational Recovery Systems): Jack Trimpey: 9780440507253: Amazon.com: Books

Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction: Jack Trimpey: 9780671528584: Amazon.com: Books

deeker

Personally I wouldn't for Christmas! Could cause problems for you and spoil your day.

dandylion

Dear Booo--you say that you feel like you are "picking a fight". I can see where you probably feel like this is a "debate" of sorts---between you and others on the forum--as you are discussing what you feel, deeply, is the best way to proceed in influencing your significant other toward sobriety. I get that you see the drinking as a dangerous thing and you want to stop it. (actually, I think that all of us wanted to do that with our alcoholics).

I don't blame you for wanted it stopped. I know I did. I'' bet everyone, here, who reads your posts can identify with how you are feeling, right n ow. Most of us are, or have been, quite co-dependent at some time in our relationships. We know how it feels to feel that we MUST control the uncontrollable (and alcoholism in another is uncontrollable). Often we say "I know I can't CONTROL him---but, I will bring all my powers of INFLUENCE--and, eventually, he will see the logic--and a lightbulb will come on--and he will want to stop. The problem is...LOL...is that drinking is the most logical thing that an alcoholic can think to do. Reality for the alcoholic is very different from the logic of a non-alcoholic.

On this very subject--the best material that I have read (bar none, for me) is a series of articles written by Floyd P. Garrett, M.D. Of particular interest, is the one titled: "Addiction, lies, & Relationships". Another 2, explain how the alcoholic mind works (psychologically). Also, "Excuses Alcoholics Make". You can find these articles--if you are interested--by doing a google search. There is also a website---www.bma-wellness.com that carries his articles. Those helped me soo much to understand where my alcoholics were coming from---and took so much of the burden, that I felt I had to carry, off my shoulders.

Don't worry about "picking a fight"----cause we don't look at it that way. Lots of people have considerable cognitive dissonance with some of the responses that they get to their origional posts when they first come here. Geesh--some, even go away mad!!

I sure can't promise that you will like or agree with every post that you recieve on here---every person is different in how they communicate their experiences and beliefs.
I do believe, however, that the overwhelming majority of people who take the time to respond have one main goal--and, that is to help others who are walking in the shoes that they have, or, are still walking in. Most are compassionate and tolerant and want to help.

About the book--as I said, in a previous post---you feel strongly that you want to give it to him---that is o.k.--I say, give it to him if you want to. It won't hurt him, if you do.
(my personal opinion). Hel*, I gave my alcoholics tons of books!!!

One thing that has helped me---is the instruction regarding a forum (or group)--take what works and leave the rest. I have had to use that advice many times...LOL...LOL...

dandylion

Carlotta

The Rational Recovery option is kind of neat and I could see it as being a "Quacking Test".
I don't like AA etc. is too often a cover for: "I don't want to quit but I am too chicken to tell you that to your face so I will find fault with AA".
Having a method which is almost opposite to AA leaves no room for quacking: "The truth shall be revealed"
In the case of your husband, he obviously is interested in getting better this is why he is reading those avidly as opposed to my friend who never even bothered with either the BB or the RR book.

OneNightAWeek

I gave this book to my husband BOOO and it was suggested by the addiction doctor we both work with. I ordered several books online even though he was of course capable. Who really cares ? UNLESS you have a problem in terms of your own codependency where YOU feel YOU will suffer emotionally from your efforts. YOU will be angry if he doesnt read them, or doesnt like them. YOU will sulk and suffer and regret the action. YOU cant control what he does with the books, or any of that, and that is what I would use your tools of alanon to focus on. Your reaction and nothing more.

I strongly disagree that we have no impact on other people. Look at this forum, why do we post? To have impact on other people, to share our experiences, what we read, and our opinions. WE cannot control what other members do with our shares, but our intent is still to help other people.

My husband ONLY started seeing the addiction doctor because I started seeing him first. I went to him to ask for help, to teach me about addiction, to tell me what I could do to help him. He is not a purely into AA concepts, and guess what? He said yes, there are things you can do. IF YOU WANT TO DO THEM. but he added there are no guarantees what will come of the fruits of your labor.

I tried alanon, did the six and there are some things I found helpful but I also disagree with a lot of the principles like suggesting it might be unhealthy to give a book even though he asked you for help, because that makes you codependent. I disagree with that line of thought. Its UP TO YOU TO DECIDE IF YOUR ACTIONS ARE CAUSING YOU A PROBLEM, **OR** IF YOUR ACTIONS TOWARDS HIM ARE CAUSING HIM A PROBLEM, OR A PROBLEM WITHIN YOUR RELATIONSHIP. Its not automatic because people are all different.

If I was overweight and had asked my husband for help, and he gave me a gym membership, or healthy cookbooks, exercise dvd's, I would not be offended or think he had a codependency problem. It might not be the DVD I would have picked out but I would appreciate his effort, and I might watch it , try it and it might bet my booty in gear. Who knows? My only issue would be if HE GOT HURT, ANGRY, RESENTFUL of the $40 bucks he spent or whatever, IF I didnt lose the weight, or even ever play the DVD. and I should add I am OVERWEIGHT because Im pregnant so its a topic I can relate to very well at the moment.

When I started seeing the addiction doctor, I began reading at home and slowly commenting on what I was learning. He became drawn in and I did not push it on him. I learned moments when I could share and moments when it wasnt going to be receptive. He has completely stopped the drugs for months now, but is still drinking. He is in therapy and things have got better. Its a work in progress right now is all I can say.

I would also suggest some of the books on Rational Recovery or Smart Recovery. My husband is not using AA for his own personal reasons, and Im ok with that.

Im sorry I am now writing a novel, but I dont think you will get a 100% consensus and I wanted to share my experience with you. YOU DECIDE FOR YOU, I think one of the most important ways to get over codependency is to think for yourself and know yourself.

Pelican

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...influence.html

This is a link that contains excerpts from the book "under the influence"

Booo

Thank youALL so very much for all of yup our thoughts and experiences. I take no offense at a novel, onenightststime, I promise! I love to read and devour these boards to learn and to offer help if I can,being a divoresed spouse of A RA and the former girlfriend of a textbook narcissist It's easy for me to see other people's issues, but I think it's hard for a lot of us (one maybe just me) to see our own.
So here is the funny part...we had our Christmas which was lovely, thoughtful, sweet and happy.
We were ready to go out and I said off the cuff (you know after two days of asking questions here) "would you be interested in reading a scientific book about alcohols effects on certain people?"
And
He
Said
No.

Ha.

However then took a beat and he said "why?"

And I told him I had it, I've been reading it and it's been fascinating. And told him the scary story of George mcgoverns daughter. Also spoke a sentence or two about rational recovery.
That's as far as he went. He knows I have it, he can borrow he knows there are options to AA..it all took about 90 seconds
and the rest of the day has gone very well for me.

So thanks, really really really. I was feeling a bit defensive yesterday and I thank you for sticking with me.

Booo

And pelican. You are just all that and two bags of chips, thanks!

HopefulinFLA

Booo, that's all you can really do. You offered, he knows it's there. Maybe he'll find himself interested in it at some point, maybe he won't. That's all up to him. Good job handling this!

So glad to hear you've a good day.

dandylion

Thats Great!

dandylion

PohsFriend

Pelican seems to have the innate ability to say in one sentence what takes me 37 pages. If it wasn't so darned helpful it would almost be annoying!!!

Boo - glad to see that you solved the conundrum. When I get frustrated at work with not having an answer or hearing conflicting things I roll my eyes, pick up the phone and dial, ask a question, get my answer and get on with my day.

Not as good at that at home though.

Some words of wisdom I learned from a friend - "Everyone looks for themselves first in a group photo". When you ask about whether suggesting a book might or might not be worth the effort I'm guessing a lot of us turned and looked at the bookshelf, shook our head and thought 'good luck with that'.

Perhaps a more helpful response would have been "Can't hurt - just don't let it get you down if you get a response like 'uhhhhh why would I want to read that?' and be sure you don't succumb top the desire to say 'well, let's think that one over hmmmmm. why? why might you want to read this book? Why might I be fighting the overwhelming desire to lodge this book where only a nimble and encredibly talented proctologist could extract it? Why indeed...'.

You asked, he shrugged, you got on with your day and had your answer. well-played ;-)

Booo

Why thank you pohsfriend! I understand that not everyone also has the patience to go through every word or line of every thing I post. What I read, what I do what I have done what kind of drunk he is etc etc. (I know a drunk is a drunk, but he's not violent or abusive to me)
Something is changing in him, as it is within me. Last year, this same trip, I had always "spiked my eggnog" just because it was a holiday and the thing to do. So I always had some booze around for a night here and there and inevitably, as it has it years passed, the bottle would disappear within a few days.
And then he would go buy his own. And then I would confront him (I never saw him drunk, I just knew he was drinking after I went to bed).
It was a lot of energy to waste. My threats and anger and tears and disappointing looks and slamming doors.
Easy for me to realize that as someone who does not drink, me not needing one bit to spike anything meant I did not need to have alcohol in the house. If he wants to drink he's going to have to go MUCH further than the kitchen to get it.

This entire last year has been different. With or without me I think he is realizing that this is an issue, and usually on passed holidays, "these" weeks have been seen as a free pass for him to "stupid town".

I am spending less time (actually no time) looking at half bottles of what were full bottles last night. He is not expending energy trying to hide what must have been a massive hangover daily.

He is not acting like he's white knuckling, he's not in a foul mood, not bartering with me for a drink, at least not daily. the other night we were out and he said "can I have a beer"? And I said "you can have whatever you want," I then laughed and said "you know the deal."
He didn't have one, and no one cared.

So he's either doing ok or hiding something very very well from me. He seems more humble, yet does not want to talk about it much. We have talked about the one beer here and one beer there ALWAYS leads quickly to the hard drinks by the bottle. So if that's what he wants, that what he can have, but sadly he cannot have me If that is the path
He chooses.
We shall see.
Sadly in the back of my mind I know it can all come crumbling down in a moment and maybe if he was in an actual program I would feel the same.
I don't know if that feeling ever ever goes away.

Booo

Btw. Your book placement, classic.

PohsFriend

In the absence of wisdom a good joke will do I suppose.

If you search back two years you'll find I had all those plans, deals, strategies, and 'Hey, I know, let's try X!".

Because the other 57 Gazillion spouses of alcoholics clearly hadn't taken the time to just think it through logically like I was doing - bunch of yutzes that they are ;-)

The funny thing is that when you stop negotiating and get to that "You can do whatever the hell you want - I'm your spouse not your warden or your mommy" point it actually works better because if you get into that game where you give permission or refuse to what are you doing? You are either enabling or else you are the bad guy for saying no.

All I ever figured out was two simple truths:
1. I can't force my wife to be sober and stay sober
2. There ain't no way in hell I am going to live with an actively drinking alcoholic (actively using addict).

Did not make things easy necessarily but it made it simple. It so happens that my wife decided to go figure out that whole alcoholism thing at AA and good thing - those guys know about alcoholism, I theorize about it.

We had an epiphany around here this week that took me a few days to work through and identify - my wife had some of her girlfriends from AA relapse and it made her a little bit frantic and she got to join 'our' club - worrying like crazy about the problems of someone who was too high to worry about a damned thing. See my post 'full circle'... I think it might resonate with you right now.

Congrats on getting to the "You can do whatever you want' point. For some that is a sign of reaching understanding, for me it was less noble - I was just too damned tired to think of another plan or idea and said "Oh to hell with it - you are gonna get well or not but I am not gonna go crazy in the meantime". Exhaustion can lead to wisdom ;-)

Booo

Yes I read and commented on your full circle post. It was quite helpful.