The alcoholic, divorce, and spousal support

Old 12-11-2013, 06:50 PM
  # 1 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: California
Posts: 693
The alcoholic, divorce, and spousal support

I'm stopping back by here because this is the only place I know of where I might get some input on this issue.

My AH and I are in the final stages of a divorce settlement agreement. It's a marriage of long duration in which I was a full-time mom for 15 years. We are both now working FT at the company we co-own (I had to take over control because he was running it into the ground). So there is some guarantee of employment as long as the company is solvent, and AH continues doing his job. But the damage done to our company by my AH could cause us to have to close the company at the end of 2014 and leave both of us looking for work. I am confident I can get some sort of job, but AH is a real question mark. It is known in our industry that he is a boozer.

The issue is that, while my AH is definitely on the hook to provide me with spousal support in the future (which will likely never happen), in California the law provides for ME to be obligated to provide him with spousal support should he be unable to work, with no clear termination date. To further rub salt in the wound, the courts view an alcoholic as a person with a disease, and are more likely to award him spousal support than a non-alcoholic if he has health issues or an injury or other incapacity (unfair, I know). This is the opinion of the FIVE attorneys I have now consulted with.

I'm very, very concerned about this liability since he's an alcoholic and we all know it's progressive. I have an opportunity to try to get him to waive his right to collect spousal support from me --- but it will cost me a huge amount of money and most of my settlement. Right now I'm trying to figure out how much it would be worth to get myself out of this obligation. It's a gamble since I don't know what the future holds. My AH is currently what would be termed a "functioning alcoholic" but I know it's progressive.

To those out there who have divorced an alcoholic, what has been your experience with them eventually being unable/unwilling to work and/or you having to pay them spousal support? Do I pull out all the stops (as in, pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars, leaving me with no savings) to try to get out from under a future obligation to pay him alimony? Or do I keep the money and wait and see what the future holds? There are many avenues of legal wrangling and the court won't make me pay him if he's just sitting at home drinking, but as alcoholism is linked to health issues not normally assocated with drinking (cancer, GI issues, falls down stairs) I'm VERY paranoid he'll develop some random health issue and go after me to support him.

And I'll just take this opportunity to say how much I hate drunks.

Thanks for reading.
SoaringSpirits is offline  
Old 12-11-2013, 07:34 PM
  # 2 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
Yikes. I'm in California too and my aunt is married to my disabled uncle still and only reason she stays married to him is because she'll have to pay him spinal support if they divorce.

What I'm curious about, is why you would have to pay him spousal support if he's not unemployed at the time of your divorce finalizing. Why would you retroactively pay him spousal support? That part confuses me. Additionally, if he's unemployed and you're unemployed when he files (assuming that he's unemployed because you had to close your doors, which would effectively make you unemployed too) the courts can't force you into paying him since you'd have no income. I'd keep your savings because I can't see how you'd be held responsible for his well being after your divorce is finalized.
Stung is offline  
Old 12-11-2013, 07:57 PM
  # 3 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: California
Posts: 693
Stung, what it means is that I'm on the hook to potentially pay him spousal support from now until he's 62 and able to collect Social Security, if he can't work and support himself due to a serious health issue or injury or other disability. Alcoholism is considered a serious health issue in CA.

I'm 45. He's 51. Which means that I have another 9+ years ahead of me where I'm exposed unless I can get him to waive his right to go after me for spousal support.

The calculations are very complex and take into consideration all sources of income (rental income, investment income, etc), but the bottom line is that if in 5 years he's got cancer and can't work, and I'm making $50,000/year and barely scraping by, the court can order me to pay him support. If in 5 years he's not working and I'm making $250,000 per year, the court will absolutely award him support.

In CA, if you have a "marriage of long duration" (10+ years), the courts can reserve jurisdiction over future spousal support. As in pretty much open ended. The only thing that stops it is re-marriage. In other words, if you have a long duration marriage, you can potentially be on the hook to each other for years and years and years. It has nothing to do with what you were making when you divorced. It (along with other things like child support, custody etc) can be revisited annually or even more often, as circumstances change.
SoaringSpirits is offline  
Old 12-11-2013, 08:05 PM
  # 4 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 2,066
Good grief. I had no idea that it was open ended. In that case, I'd highly consider negotiating to have him sign away his rights. How does the calculation for spousal support work? Would it be a significant amount that you'd have to pay monthly? Also, keep in mind that alimony is tax deductible, at the very least. I'd talk to a CPA to do a risk vs reward analysis on present vs future values of paying him off now vs paying spousal support for 9 years.
Stung is offline  
Old 12-11-2013, 09:25 PM
  # 5 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: California
Posts: 693
Originally Posted by Stung View Post
Good grief. I had no idea that it was open ended. In that case, I'd highly consider negotiating to have him sign away his rights. How does the calculation for spousal support work? Would it be a significant amount that you'd have to pay monthly? Also, keep in mind that alimony is tax deductible, at the very least. I'd talk to a CPA to do a risk vs reward analysis on present vs future values of paying him off now vs paying spousal support for 9 years.
The calculation for support has a lot of variables, but the formula for temporary spousal support is, in general, 40% of supporting party's income minus 50% of other party's income.

That is a very good idea about the CPA and present/future values. I'm going to call him tomorrow and sit down and do just that. Thanks!
SoaringSpirits is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 07:40 AM
  # 6 (permalink)  
Member
 
SherylB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 34
Omg, this really upsets me! Disease, my butt! I used to accept that, but that just gives them an excuse to never get better! I too may have to pay spousal support because my AH is pissed that he's going to have to pay child support, so he's going to retaliate. Any state is sick if they believe an alcoholic, who is able to work but chooses not to by drinking his/her life away, should take money from someone else, especially when the someone else supports a child or children!!! This topic really got to me. Every day there's something new to get upset about. Does this ever get better? I wonder what life is like with a healthy person. I can't even imagine it.
SherylB is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 08:09 AM
  # 7 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 453
I don't have experience with this, so take it with a big grain of salt...really more of a question...would waiving your right to future spousal support in exchange for his waiving his right to future spousal support negate the responsibility to pay him now?

You are getting by at this point, and seem to feel confident in your ability to find work in the future (which is awesome for you!), so maybe if you both waive the right neither of you would have to pay anything to the other now? Just go your separate ways & be done?

Not sure...just thought I'd throw it out there.
CarryOn is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 09:59 AM
  # 8 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: California
Posts: 693
Carry On, yes, that's an option. We both waive rights to spousal support. This was discussed as an option. My attorneys all felt strongly it would be a bad idea for me to waive mine in light of my 15 year work gap.

Still, I threw it onto the table during negotiation, and AH rejected it, which stunned attorneys on both sides. AH views me as his "insurance policy." I'm trying so hard to disentangle and detach and let him face his consequences, yet I'm legally put in a position of being an enabler. It's crazy-making!

We're now working on some language which keeps spousal support rights in place on both sides, but limits his ability to claim if his health issue is the possible result of long term alcohol abuse. We shall see if he buys it. I seriously doubt it.
SoaringSpirits is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 01:02 PM
  # 9 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 50
I was in a similar situation when I was going through divorce a year ago. He basically had not worked in 20 years but was not formally considered disabled although did have some health issues and was using those as excuses to try and get more money. He was asking for alimony but that was such a bitter pill for me I was darned if I was going to pay him alimony. Instead, in our negotiations we negotiated a lump sum payment in lieu of alimony. In my case it was a significant amount but I was lucky that I had significant assets and it would not have taken everything I had. I will add here that we are both retired early............he was 63 and already collecting social security and I retired early at age 57. To my way of thinking I preferred to get the pain over with all at once rather than pay him for a number of years. Funny thing happened though. He dinked around so long trying to change everything that we agreed to that he actually DIED before we were divorced. With that both the alimony and the lump sum payment issues went away and I saved myself a ton of money. However here in NC the equitable distribution case did not go away and I did have to negotiate and pay his heirs what would have been the portion of the marital assets that he would have gotten, ie the half of the IRA that was acquired during our time married etc. BUT the alimony/settlement in lieu of alimony went away. My husband was only 63 but with the progressive disease if his illness is such that he may not survive the length of time that he may be entitled to alimony then one could make an argument for delaying payment, ie doing alimony instead of a lump payment since if he or you dies then alimony stops. In my case IF he and his lawyer had not dinked around so long and I in fact HAD made the lump payment then when he died his brothers would have gotten all that money. In retrospect then I was glad for the delays. Just some things to think about.
PeacefulMe is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 01:36 PM
  # 10 (permalink)  
Lord Have Mercy
 
djayr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Upper Midwest
Posts: 242
Hello. I am divorced in the State of WI which is also a community property state. My situation is different of course -- but also similar in that I paid a large lump sum PLUS 6 years of alimony at 3,000 per month to have a "cap" or limit. I am the owner of a family business. XAW is 44 years old and there was a possibility that she could have pursued "alimony for life" which scared me into paying more up front in order to have closure and a limit to the liability.

Alimony is deductible to the payer and taxable to the receiver, that is one bonus I'm sure you can appreciate as a business owner.

This is worth only 0.02 so please take it for nothing, but I personally don't think you should pay hundreds of thousands and be relatively broke, simply out of fear that XAH may possibly get his hooks into you for alimony. This is morbid, but if he is an alcoholic, the odds are, he will die young.

Cash is king. If you can keep 6 figures in your savings account, you will enjoy a better quality of life even if you do have a vulture XAH lurking in the shadows. Or maybe make him a low ball offer, something significant, maybe 100K as a reasonable compromise, but don't give away all your money. Like you said, maybe YOU should be getting compensation from HIM. Your worst case scenario is only one possible scenario.
djayr is offline  
Old 12-12-2013, 10:05 PM
  # 11 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: California
Posts: 693
Thanks Djayr and Peacefulme. Very good info. I really appreciate it. Djayr, you have a good point. Maybe I should just beef up the settlement agreement as best I can and take my chances.
SoaringSpirits is offline  
Old 12-13-2013, 07:11 AM
  # 12 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,163
djayr has some valid points.

Not to sound cruel or insensitive but his lifestyle choices lead me to believe you will outlive him.

Last year, my 52 year old neighbor dropped dead, autopsy report stated he had an enlarged heart, complication of many years of alcohol abuse. Another guy I knew, fell and bumped his head in an intoxicated state, he died instantly. And one of my daughter's friends mother, aspirated in her sleep, and died.

If it were me, I would be weighing all these odds, and would be very hesitant in paying him off.

SoaringSpirits, I am sure you will make the best decision for your situation, I have great empathy for what you are going through. Wishing you peace, joy, and love, you deserve it, my friend.
marie1960 is offline  
Old 12-14-2013, 12:55 PM
  # 13 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: California
Posts: 693
Thanks Marie. I really appreciate the input. Part of what scares me is that AH is from a long line of raging alcoholics who all drink, smoke, and live into their 80s, then keel over dead. LOL. That would just be my luck.

My attorneys are working on some support language that would make it challenging for AH to get money out of me. Hoping he'll buy at least part of it.

Thank you everyone for the input, it really really helps.
SoaringSpirits is offline  
Old 12-14-2013, 01:08 PM
  # 14 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Indiana, IL
Posts: 424
Soaring, if he was really functioning than he wouldn't be a alcoholic.
Upsetnneedhelp is offline  
Old 12-14-2013, 08:34 PM
  # 15 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,163
dear upsetnneedhelp, these boards are filled with factual information and real life testimonials of what people have endured living with a "functioning alcoholics "

Perhaps sometime in the near future, you can take a few minutes and read what life is like with an active, live and unplugged addict.

I really had to take the time and educate myself about addiction, only then could I understand the big picture.

Peace to you, my friend.
marie1960 is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:00 AM.