Should I believe that he'll change?

Old 11-29-2013, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Quish16 View Post
I agree with most of the comments BUT if he stops drinking suddenly, isn't that a health risk given the amount he drinks on a regular basis?
Most likely, but who are you to decide? They will always do what they want to do. Doesn't matter what you say, think or feel. It doesn't make a dot of difference how much you worry.

Originally Posted by Quish16 View Post

Alcoholics lie about the amount - I count number of empties rather than go by what AH says.
That's a waste of your precious time on this earth.
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Old 11-29-2013, 04:02 AM
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Tigers, do spend as much time as you can reading on this forum. As others mentioned, don't miss the stickies at the top of this page. You need to educate yourself about what alcoholism is and what alcoholics do., and this is one of the best places I know of to do that. This will help you a lot in making decisions abot your future.

I'd also strongly agree w/those who mentioned Alanon, but I would not limit my recommendation of Alanon to "if you want to stay in this relationship." Alanon is another great source of education and support, and you will need both as you find your way forward, whether you ultimately stay w/the A or leave. The sooner you can get to a meeting, the better. There are a lot of threads here about people's experiences in Alanon; search the forum if you want to know more.

The one other thing I'd like to mention is that many (all?) of us come here, start reading, and think "oh, things are really bad for these people, but me and my A, we are SPECIAL! MY A would NEVER do what these other ones did...I'd NEVER "give up" on my A like SHE did...I REALLY LOVE my A, and that will make all the difference!" Sadly, we all come to learn that we are no different than anyone else in any situation here. To repeat a phrase I hear here often, if love was all it took, this site wouldn't exist. If we could love our A's into sobriety, if we could love them into being the people we wanted them to be (b/c simply removing alcohol from the equation doesn't solve the problem), then there would be no need for Alanon or SR. The fact that both SR and Alanon are thriving is proof that love simply isn't enough.

Again, as others have said, your A has not shown any signs of wanting to quit. The only person you have any influence over is yourself--take care of YOU. Educate yourself and find support from those who understand. Wishing you clarity to see where your path lies and strength to follow it.
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Old 11-29-2013, 04:21 AM
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There are lots of different kinds of A's out there.

There are the A's in denial and actively drinking and they are in various stages of the disease manipulating others and quacking away at whoever buys in and will listen.

There are the A's that are in jails, mental institutions and hospital beds and many of them are in deep trouble with their lives in ashes or fighting for their lives. Many of them are still in denial and have no intention of changing... EVER. Some are going through the motions and saying what others want to hear to save their marriage or get a lenient sentence from a judge or praying to their HP as they have been given a death sentence by their doctor.

Then there are the A's that are actively trying to find their own way out of alcoholism. They know they have a problem and are actively seeking a solution. You can tell by their actions not their lips that they are sincere in their attempt. Statistically most will not find their way out and they will struggle with their addiction all of their lives and drift in and out of active drinking.

Then there are the A's that actually do find authentic true recovery and work everyday at their whole being... spiritually, physically and emotionally. They deal with the WHY to their drinking by working on themselves... their selfishness and other issues that all alcoholics seem to share. Some are in AA or other programs and some are in spiritual programs such as Celebrate Recovery. Some are Buddhists or completely secular and have a therapist or counselor working with them.

These A's are the rarest of the rare. They are few and far between. The 20 and 30 year chips in AA have a lot of dust on them. My hats off to these men and women.

And then there are the tweeners... standing in the gaps of these different groups. Trying to figure out how to drink and keep their wife and their job. They learn to lie and say what people want to hear while they sneak around and drink. This is the craziest world for the those that love the A because up is down and down is up. It is living in the rabbit hole where you never know if the Red Queen is going to invite you to tea or take off your head.

And then there are the A's who after a lifetime of misery upon themselves and their loved ones as well as society shrivel up and die because their body shuts down or they crash into another family in the family car. Or they choke on their own vomit or drown in the tub drunk.

It's not pretty loving an alcoholic. I know... I loved my dad and he died in his alcoholism. I love my brother who just beat his 3rd DUI and in 1 year he gets back his license to drive and he will drive drunk again to maybe kill your family on the road. And I loved my XA... I still love him and he is sober today. Doing well! Very, very well.

But I won't take him back... ever. He is an A and A's drink. Tragically he will relapse one day and I will cry for him but I will detach and go on living. Because I am in recovery and I released him to his HP long ago....

I know this is a Debbie Downer post but well...its true and truth sets you free. The truth is we choose to pick our poison and our choices determine our destiny. I would rather live a happy, joyous life without him than live with the dread of his picking up a drink and entering into the hell of addiction again.
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:33 AM
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Sorry to tell you this but it's going to get worse, much worse if he doesn't admit he's an alcoholic and if you don't start getting help. I've been where you are at and now I am dealing with the I guess 7 years of wasted time that I posted here asking the same types of questions and riding along the "cutting down" conversations, broken promises, fights etc.

I'm still learning just like you. My husband is sober almost 60 days (30 days were rehab) and now we are in a different kind of h&ll trying to sort through the wreckage. I'm hopeful we can make it through this but I don't know. A lot has been done. You're thread is titled Should I Believe He'll Change? Currently? What what you have shared? Not for a single second should you believe he will change. Keep posting here it's helped for me. I have been where you are at and I am praying for you.
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Old 11-29-2013, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TigersFoundMe View Post
I'm new to this forum and in the very beginning stages of learning about my boyfriend's alcohol addiction.

Last night, he came home late, so drunk that he could barely stand. So drunk he could hardly keep his eyes open. Let me repeat, I'm in the beginning stages of learning about his disease, so I'm not sure if I handled this in the best way...

He sat on the edge of the bed and asked me if I thought he drinks too much. I was honest. I told him that he can't stop drinking, even when he decides to have a sober day. I told him that I worry about his health, that I worry he'll die early because he drinks so much. I told him that he's alcohol dependent, he has withdrawal symptoms if he postpones his drinking. I told him that I think he needs professional help kicking this addiction.

He laughed and said that I was wrong, that he could cut back on his drinking. He said that he didn't know that I had a problem with his drinking (not true, btw) but now that he knows, he'll only drink 5 drinks a night, 4 nights a week. He currently drinks at least 6 drinks every single night.
I agree with the others here, who say you should leave. I also got involved with someone who had a drinking problem established way before I ever knew him. I knew nothing of the disease and believed him when he said "I'm not gonna do that anymore. I've changed." Along the way, he had all kinds of excuses to justify his behavior, like "This is better than I used to be!" as if that justified any of it. If you stay with this guy, you will just end up with a broken heart and broken promises, and you'll inevitable beat yourself up wondering why he isn't being true to his word, why he doesn't care enough about you to just stop. It really has nothing to do with you, nothing you can say or do will change his draw to alcohol. It's sad and painful….But really, just walk away.
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Old 11-29-2013, 08:33 AM
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What is healthiest (mentally, emotionally) for me?
To learn as much as you can about alcoholism. Read through posts here at SR and seek out al-anon meetings in your area. Gain as much knowledge as you can with FACTS not hope so that you are prepared to make wise and healthy decisions for yourself going forward in life.
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Old 11-29-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
I'm going to tell you what I wish someone had told me long time ago.

Run away.

You're not married, you don't have kids so leave. The odds are that this is only going to get a whole lot worse. Much worse than you can imagine and the longer you stay the harder it is to leave.

You are standing at the gates of hell and you have the choice to either go in or turn around. As someone who spent many years married to an alcoholic you really want to turn around. Hell is a lot easier to get into than it is to get out of.

Your friend,



Since I read this, it has been BURNED into my brain. I woke up thinking about it, and know I am standing at it!! This is really helping me. thank you.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Dawnerzw View Post
Unfortunately, cutting back isn't going to make it go away. Eventually he will be right back to drinking what he did before. It's frustrating as heck to deal with. He must be having second thoughts though about his own drinking to have come to you and asked you your opinion. Although he laughed at you, hopefully soon he will agree before it spirals out of control and seeks help. What you need to figure out is that if you are prepared and willing to go through this struggle with him? There will be fights, hateful words, hurt feelings, oh the list goes on. You need to make sure whatever your decision is, that you do whats best for YOU. Realize that you and your feelings and well being DO matter.

And I second the Al Anon meetings if this is something you want to fight for!!
Thank you to Dawnerzw and others who have given similar advice. I'm starting to realize that I put great amounts of energy and time into making sure he's happy and taken care of, but I'm not spending any time taking care of myself. This thread has opened my eyes to the ways that I'm ignoring my own needs and I'm very excited to change that soon.

I also appreciate the advice that conflicts with this, the responses that tell me to end the relationship and save myself the heartache. As Mike poetically stated, "You are standing at the gates of hell and you have the choice to either go in or turn around. As someone who spent many years married to an alcoholic you really want to turn around. Hell is a lot easier to get into than it is to get out of." I can say with certainty that, at this exact moment in space and time, this relationship is right for me. As I learn more about his disease it will help me make an informed decision about the future of our relationship. That being said, I know enough to know that I don't know everything, and I am not blind to the possibility of this relationship being unhealthy for me. I sincerely appreciate your stories and experiences, thank you for sharing them with me.

I feel very lucky to have joined this forum. Thank you all for sharing your personal knowledge and understanding of addiction to help me navigate my own struggles with it.
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Upsetnneedhelp View Post
Only an alcoholic would state; "I'll cut down to 5 drinks a night". Which is probably triple what medical professionals suggest is safe.
According to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), men should have no more than 14 drinks a week; more than that and they are increasing their chances for alcohol-related health problems. The NIAAA recommends two ways to drink no more than 14 drinks a week:

Low-risk drinking: No more than 4 drinks a day, no more than 4 days a week.

Moderate drinking: No more than 2 drinks a day, 7 days a week.

I was surprised by the low-risk drinking guidelines... it seems like a lot of alcohol to me! But you can find these guidelines on their website at rethinkingdrinking.niaaa.nih.gov
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:14 PM
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ugh. my boyfriend is drinking 70+/week... and he is also smoking pot starting at 630am-about midnight .. everyday.. for the last 15 years.. A Dr. told us he will die in the next 5-10. No major health issues popping up yet... idk. when I see that, it is really scary to consider what these people are actually taking in compared to what is recommended. wow!!
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TigersFoundMe View Post
According to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), men should have no more than 14 drinks a week; more than that and they are increasing their chances for alcohol-related health problems. The NIAAA recommends two ways to drink no more than 14 drinks a week:

Low-risk drinking: No more than 4 drinks a day, no more than 4 days a week.

Moderate drinking: No more than 2 drinks a day, 7 days a week.

I was surprised by the low-risk drinking guidelines... it seems like a lot of alcohol to me! But you can find these guidelines on their website at rethinkingdrinking.niaaa.nih.gov
Yep. The scientific basis of this is generalizations based on mortality studies. Most countries just copy the others. Has nothing to do with the overall spectrum of life problems caused by excessive drinking. It's not really science, either, as there is no way all those people drank those very specific units consistently for X years of their lives.

He's still at double that or doesn't measure though, I imagine. Keep reading here, the only 'safe' amount of alcohol for a person with this affliction is zero.
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Old 11-29-2013, 10:36 PM
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Funny, I was writing a response to bird13 along the same lines when your response popped up!

In addition to the NIAAA guidelines being gross generalizations, every person is different. Some people smoke a pack of cigarettes a day and live a long and healthy life, while others aren't so lucky. People oftentimes take "science" as Truth (with a capital "T"!), but I think it's important to be critical of ideas that are presented as Truth.

A little bit about me...I love Donna Haraway, and believe that all knowledge is situated within a specific place and time. At one point, everyone knew that the earth was the center of the universe... that was Truth to them. Everyone has their own truth and it changes over time.

And you're right, even one drink is too many for someone struggling with addiction.

Originally Posted by foolsgold66 View Post
Yep. The scientific basis of this is generalizations based on mortality studies. Most countries just copy the others. Has nothing to do with the overall spectrum of life problems caused by excessive drinking. It's not really science, either, as there is no way all those people drank those very specific units consistently for X years of their lives.

He's still at double that or doesn't measure though, I imagine. Keep reading here, the only 'safe' amount of alcohol for a person with this affliction is zero.
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Old 11-29-2013, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TigersFoundMe View Post
As I learn more about his disease it will help me make an informed decision about the future of our relationship. That being said, I know enough to know that I don't know everything, and I am not blind to the possibility of this relationship being unhealthy for me.
I do give kudos to you for at least doing research and learning all you can.

Being an alcoholic myself I will never be cured of it and it never goes away. There is a chance every day that I might take that drink. Of course my advice is to get out now while you can. Because if he does have a problem the chances are it is going to get worse before it gets better. But that is just my opinion and you have to do what is right for you.

You will get lots of support and insight from the people in the family forum, they are a great bunch.
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Old 11-30-2013, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by TigersFoundMe View Post
I can say with certainty that, at this exact moment in space and time, this relationship is right for me.
From what you have posted so far, it's hard to imagine what would make you think this.

One of the things you'll frequently hear here is that we need to work with what IS, not what we WISH would be or what we think COULD be. Is this relationship right for you in the real world, now? We're not talking about some future date when things have magically become better and your partner has reached that "potential" that you just knew was there all along...

I'd also like to add that alcoholism is NOT defined by some medical guideline about exactly how many drinks a week a person takes. It's defined more by tears shed, lies told, hearts broken, bills unpaid, jobs lost, DUIs, jail time, domestic violence, damaged children, broken marriages....you get the idea, I think.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:01 AM
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If you stay in this relationship, please, PLEASE, use very good birth control.

As a child of an alcoholic, I can tell you that your children won't thank you for choosing an active alcoholic parent for them.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:24 AM
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Tigers, I wasn't being poetic, if anything I was being gentle. Why do you think so many people thanked my post? It wasn't because it was clever or poetic or because it was good writing but because I was telling their story as well.

Every single one of us was where you are now. Every single one of us thought this was the right relationship at that time. Every single one of us thought our relationship was special.

WE WERE WRONG!

I am not being poetic when I talk about hell because that's what I lived through. I only got out because I reached a point where I thought it would be better to be dead than live like I was living. That scared me enough that I finally had a moment of clarity, accepted reality as it was and began the slow very painful path to recovery for me.

Try reading this thread, http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-part-1-a.html

It is part one of three and will give you good insight into what your future is like.

Your friend,
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kudzujean View Post
If you stay in this relationship, please, PLEASE, use very good birth control.

As a child of an alcoholic, I can tell you that your children won't thank you for choosing an active alcoholic parent for them.
ouch....harsh! thanks!! lol
just kidding.

i agree though as a mom to children of an alcoholic...no parent would ever should ever wish that upon a child. NEVER. Trust me any potential relationship you see in this is completely false. Marriage,Forget it i promise you you are adopting a child not marrying a husband. Children, Sure you just married one!

Its not worth it
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:48 AM
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Tigers---I forgot to say what Kudzujean brought to light.....YES!! By all means practice good birth control!. Life is hell living with an active alcoholic---you can multiply that several times, once innocent children are drug into it. You should read some of those stories!!
One of the worst things you can do for a child is pick the wrong father for them.

Maybe m1k3 is not a poet---but, m1k3 IS "Truth-Teller Extrodinare"
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post

Try reading this thread, http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-part-1-a.html

It is part one of three and will give you good insight into what your future is like.
I second this recommendation.

Please, please don't think you are being judged - you aren't. We have all either been there in the past, or are there right now. Myself, I'm married to an alcoholic. And no one on here EVER wants to be right when they tell you that things probably won't improve....but, in reality, they probably won't improve. No one here wants that to be the truth, but...

Hugs to you.

Peace.
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Old 11-30-2013, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by dandylion View Post
Tigers---I forgot to say what Kudzujean brought to light.....YES!! By all means practice good birth control!. Life is hell living with an active alcoholic---you can multiply that several times, once innocent children are drug into it. You should read some of those stories!!
One of the worst things you can do for a child is pick the wrong father for them.

Maybe m1k3 is not a port---but, m1k3 IS "Truth-Teller Extrodinare"
If you are having a hard time from an emotional point of view of bringing children into it, think also of the practical side. It's hard enough to leave when it's just you. It's harder when there are kids involved because of finances, and the battles over custody/visitation.

Never hurts to prepare for the "what ifs" when living with an alcoholic that you may one day leave...
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