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Perfection/Codependency and other ways we reduce vulnerability and shame (unhealthy)



Perfection/Codependency and other ways we reduce vulnerability and shame (unhealthy)

Old 10-27-2013, 12:51 AM
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Perfection/Codependency and other ways we reduce vulnerability and shame (unhealthy)

I was watching these videos from TED talks (TED | Talks | List) about how society is losing its capacity for vulnerability which is the key to connection. It just sort of clicked with me that this is what people pleasing and perfectionism is about - numbing vulnerability. BUT - what the researcher said was that research shows you can't just numb negative vulnerability (shame, hurt etc)...if you numb that you also numb joy and love (positive vulnerability).

I know these are long videos but they are worth watching IMHO. I do think they are ok to post links for since I quoted TED above and I saw saw them posted on several other sites....if not OK moderators please remove.



and it gets better

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Old 10-27-2013, 01:06 AM
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I LOVE Brene Brown and the work she is doing.
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Old 10-27-2013, 01:19 AM
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Thx. for these.

I only watched the first one, more than enough a Sunday morning

I will watch the other later.
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Old 10-27-2013, 04:44 AM
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Loved these talks--thank you!
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Old 10-27-2013, 05:12 AM
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I have ordered her last book, it was interesting enough to I want to read it.

I got rather doubtful when I watched the second clip, her logic went in circles I I saw it. She warned against focus on our strength and redefined as vulnerability. In essence as I understood here she is saying you should have the strength to enjoy your vulnerability, that is easy to say but is nonsense.

She sees some patterns but I can not see that she is not pointing to any solutions or causes.

It was a little interesting what she said about gratefulness, but she did not elaborate much on it.

I am skeptical but I will read the book though.
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:13 AM
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I've watched these talks and have her latest book. She's great!
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:17 PM
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I'm out of my relationship with my XAH (legally separated) so all of my real issues have come to the surface now and I'm working through them in therapy. One of those issues is about vulnerability and a couple of things she said were really eye opening to me (below is just a summary of how I understood a couple points she made):

1. you can't numb out the bad vulnerability without also numbing the good. I was numbing through perfection and striving for image and that combined with having an NPD mother (incapable of love) made me realize I'm not sure I have ever felt true joy or true love...and I want to.

2. Perfection (and codependency IMHO) are used to numb vulnerability and in essence numb out life. Striving to be perfect is not healthy striving for excellence it is putting up a barrier between us and others and making a shield so we "can't" be the vulnerable (the bad kind or the good kind). By focusing on being perfect and helping others we wear a shield against the world and in essence live an inauthentic life. We lose ourselves in the inauthenticity. (sp)

3. I was also struck by what she said about living life in disappointment...if we expect things to be disappointing or go bad we protect ourselves from vulnreability - unfortunately both the good and bad kind. I did this as a survival technique as a kid (NPD mother) and it worked but as an adult it doesn't work and keeps me from authentic living.

4. Finally the one about people trying to be extraordinary and losing vulnerability that way - it is not only ok to be "ordinary" it can be very fulfilling. I love that idea....so while we are lost trying to be "special" (my logic on that is - when everyone is special no one is) we lose vulnerability.

5. Oh one more - one that made me think of SR was she said we numb vulnerability by being "too busy" - too busy to feel, be exposed or be authentic. So business may eventually need it's own 12 step program.

I also was struck by all the numbing - we are the most addicted (in various ways), debt ridden, overweight adult population in history. Thinking of it all in bigger terms of just me as an individual is a bit scary - but I can only work on me so I'll leave it there.
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:37 PM
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I agree with you that there are a lot of good thoughts there.

I think she also had a good point regarding not calling babies and kids for perfect. They are flawed struggling individuals as us and should be accepted and accept them self as such.

I was a little provoked by that it is always an attitude problem by the individual – we are just seeing so many problems that there is something wrong with the way we have organized ourself.
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:37 PM
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I watched these videos a while back. If I remember right one of the big takeaways for me was by suppressing vulnerability we also suppress creativity, inspiration and drive.

Thanks for posting!
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ZenMe View Post
If I remember right one of the big takeaways for me was by suppressing vulnerability we also suppress creativity, inspiration and drive.
Yes!! This too...I don't know how to explain it but the video was just a lightbulb to me on how living in active addiction was making my life just a chore, a life of disappointment with no joy or love. And both addicts and codependents like to numb vulnerability.

Before my XAH I was deeply involved in creative writing, I had started a novel even. During the last four years of his spiral down before I left I quit writing because I had no inspiration. I was constantly weighted down (like being underwater) just existing in survival mode but not really living. I had no drive and no inspiration.

It seems so clear now but when I was lost in the thick of it it seemed like he was "everything" and I needed to do it for "love"...wow....I guess that's what this disease does to us...it hits at the core of our souls, our vulnerability.
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Old 10-27-2013, 08:43 PM
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I've only recently figured out that I'm codependent. While what is said sounds awesome, I'm not sure I could practice that alongside practicing detachment. To me, in order to survive the predicament I find myself, I would need to find a way to healthfully 'numb', if you want to call it that, my hurt, anger, fill in the blank with your appropriate emotion, or risk codependent attitudes and behaviors. In my mind, replacing that emotion with a brisk walk or some other physical activity is a positive. I agree covering it with an ice cream or some other fatty food would be the wrong approach. But this is my thought coming from a newly recognized problem with codependency.
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:39 PM
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This video isn't about alcoholism at all - it's about living a healthy authentic life....I no longer have active alcoholism in my life (or any kind of alcoholism actually) so my goal is a healthy authentic life (emotionally, spiritually, physically)...I'm in therapy for me not for my XAH, my NPD mother, nor my A father (now passed).

Codependency from what I understand (this is just based on what I've learned in therapy) is actually a way of numbing real emotions...so emotions don't cause it, codependency is used to suppress real feelings. My therapist explained it like this: codependents are so busy focusing on someone else they don't focus on their own feelings, desires, or vulnerabilities or their real selves. In other words helping someone else and focusing on someone else helps to suppress what is going on with ourselves and our own issues. I personally think "love" and those things we hear drive codependency are not the vulnerable love or joy (which is the kind I want) - they are what others make people think "love" should look like. Real love has to come from mutual vulnerability and active alcoholics are not capable of that (I think they may have been early in the disease but as the disease progresses they are not unless they seek recovery long term). That's why Alanon recommends "detachment" I believe.....not because feelings and vulnerability are "bad". Just my experience.

I left my XAH over a year ago - quite honestly it was the wake up call of my life...I finally am starting to live again. At one time I had planned on staying and living my life "detached" but through a great therapist I realized that was not the way I wanted my one and only life to be. (That's not to say there is anything wrong with staying, it just wasn't for me and didn't work with my life and my self - it took therapy to figure out who I was to get to this point).

My recovery is therapy based - Alanon is something I do on the side as a support for therapy only - my work is on me, and has nothing to do with my XAH (who I am amicable with but that's it- being vulnerable or not has nothing to do with him it's about me...so I guess I'm detached from him but not my own feelings - or that's my goal!). Research states one cannot suppress negative vulnerability without also suppressing positive vulnerability. For me suppressing all of that, well that just sounds like trudging through life on autopilot, getting by in survival mode - i just decided I didn't want that, I wanted to experience it all and if I do have another relationship I want it to be with a real partner capable of the mutual vulnerability needed for the relationship to be authentic for me. My XAH just wasn't enough for me and I wasn't willing to give up me to "detach". I'm not an Alanon but I do think what goes on in therapy at the core is at the base of Alanon (I think it's in the steps).

Based on what I know of Alanon detachment is a temporary solution to get through living with an alcoholic while you work on yourself and make decisions as changes take place. I don't see detachment as a way of life - I personally would be very unhappy going through the rest of my life suppressing my emotions. Suppressing emotions is why I ended up with an alcoholic in the first place, I wanted to be around someone that kept my attention away from me - I got to this point in my life doing that, it didn't work, my new way in my new life is not to ever suppress my real self for anyone or anything again ever. That is part of the reason I don't live with an active alcoholic, in my experience that makes authentic life much more difficult (maybe not impossible but I couldn't imagine having to detach in my home - my sanctuary) and I didn't see it as worth it. (this is all about me though and my path...this is just how it is working for me)

I also don't identify as codependent, I'm an ACON (Adult Child of a Narcissist), ACOA and someone who temporarily fell into codependent patterns while living with an active alcoholic. Now that active alcoholism isn't part of my life I'm free to live authentically as me and choose to be vulnerable and open. And I want to because I'm ready to feel those things I suppressed by being "perfect", "living in disappointment" and "people pleasing" (that included Alanon for me for a while, I wanted to do it "right" so I started out following all the rules to a tee until I realized instead I should find me and follow the path for me which is mine and mine alone).

Anyway that's where I am in my recovery and why I found the video so enlightening.

I wish you strength and hope in your journey. Definitely take what you want and leave the rest (I just figured I'd post my path in case any of it might be useful) - everyone's journey is different.
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Katchie View Post
To me, in order to survive the predicament I find myself, I would need to find a way to healthfully 'numb', if you want to call it that, my hurt, anger, fill in the blank with your appropriate emotion, or risk codependent attitudes and behaviors.

Detachment is not the act of numbing your feelings to deal/survive the day or situation at hand. It's not about using a positive numbing or negative numbing. You eluded to a negative one with the ice cream reference =).

To me it's more of accepting the situation at hand, and loosening/cutting the emotional strings that cause you to be constantly reacting vs calmly assessing the situation and acting accordingly. A nice walk may help you detach, but it's not numbing. It's you relaxing, talking to yourself and turning the focus on you.

Aeryn, I also have family of origin issues that stem from my father which lead me to be involved with my xagf. They are both narcissists and abuse alcohol. I didn't even know the term until I found myself in a huge predicament (to put it lightly).

Codependency from what I understand (this is just based on what I've learned in therapy) is actually a way of numbing real emotions...so emotions don't cause it, codependency is used to suppress real feelings. My therapist explained it like this: codependents are so busy focusing on someone else they don't focus on their own feelings, desires, or vulnerabilities or their real selves.
I believe this is a characteristic of codependency and not a definition of codependency. Codie's really get a high off helping others and making others a priority. It's our way of not having to deal with our own issues. We take this to the extreme and stop taking care of ourselves (for example when in a relationship with an alcoholic).

You may be more codependent than you think =P. It's no coincidence I was attracted to my x. Sure my previous x before her didn't bring out my codie nature in full force, but in other walks of life I can see it at play, although not as strongly.
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ZenMe View Post

Aeryn, I also have family of origin issues that stem from my father which lead me to be involved with my xagf. They are both narcissists and abuse alcohol. I didn't even know the term until I found myself in a huge predicament (to put it lightly).
If they are NPD (as in the disorder rather than just having the behaviors) as my mother is there is a whole additional "fun" aspect to recovery (as I have found out the hard way - LOL ). Very different from just being a partner of an A or child of an A....for me that recovery (recovery from being ACON) is what changed everything for me and where things started to stick and the awakening started...my mother (the NPD) was the driving factor rather than my A father (he was more absent than anything - def not a narcissist).



I believe this is a characteristic of codependency and not a definition of codependency. Codie's really get a high off helping others and making others a priority. It's our way of not having to deal with our own issues. We take this to the extreme and stop taking care of ourselves (for example when in a relationship with an alcoholic).

You may be more codependent than you think =P. It's no coincidence I was attracted to my x. Sure my previous x before her didn't bring out my codie nature in full force, but in other walks of life I can see it at play, although not as strongly.
Perhaps! I did originally identify as codependent when I first went to Alanon and came on this board (I've actually been here a lot longer than my join date shows - long story but has to due with anonymity) but through therapy changed my view on my labels as I got to know myself. With my XAH I was ummm...let's say not helpful at all to him in the traditional codie ways (I was actually staying because it was easy, he didn't demand any vulnerability or emotional attention from me and I liked that rather than dealing with myself - I never counted bottles or called his job or dealt with his debt since things were separate) - but I was with him to avoid me...thus what I said about having the maladaptive behaviors learned as a kid.

I like what you say about codependents get a high off helping others...but isn't a high something codependents get to suppress emotions??? So codies get "high" for the same reason alcoholics do I think...to avoid emotions/vulnerability. I still say the emotional suppression is at the core.
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:59 PM
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Yea I would say it's a core characteristic =), not all encompassing. Many codies weren't looking to suppress emotions, somehow they got sucked in to it and ended up suppressing after the fact.

I didn't count bottles or call her job. I did smaller things like paying attention to her breath, noticing empty bottles in the trash when I went to throw something away. I started catching on and the lies became so ridiculously easy to spot. Once I put all the pieces together the relationship ended fairly quickly. I know myself better now and have fail safes in place to not let this happen again. The universe was going to keep dishing these relationships till I figured it out.

Please share your key with NPD and the ACON side of things.
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Old 10-27-2013, 11:21 PM
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LOL! Lots of therapy!

However this is a very short summary of what I've learned so far - the core of it comes when it's a parent that has NPD because it gets in the way of individuation which is key to healthy adulthood. Basically narcissistic parents teach their children that they are merely an extension of them (the parents) without a true right to exist (not literally but as themselves). So we grow up as a mirror of the parent. The emotional abuse is very conniving and subtle as well...so hard to explain. There is a lot of gaslighting and the abuse is cleverly disguised as "concern"...the child is often labeled crazy by the parent to not only belittle them but keep them in place. For me first I had to recognize the truth (it's hard with all the gaslighting and crazymaking), then I had to go back and feel all of those childhood feelings I numbed to survive and then I had to mourn the parent I never had (and may never have - many NPDs are untreatable)...I'm still in this process which is hard. The final step which I'm working on as well is about developing my own identity (individuation), dealing with my mother in a different way (many have to go NC with NPDs) and learning that the childhood survival techniques don't work for me today, and working to stop the cycle (to see if any of the tendencies passed down to me).

The key for me was admitting I truly did feel I didn't have a right to exist AS MYSELF (not literally - haha). That opened the flood.

There are a lot of good recovery books on this most of the ones I use are for daughters of NPD mothers but their are books for sons too and the keys are the same.

Here is a great article that almost described some of my childhood word for word:

https://sites.google.com/site/harpyschild/ (this is specifically mothers but I think it relates to all NPD parents just adjust a bit)

My therapist also had me read:

Trapped in the Mirror by Elan Golomb...this one is written by a Phd so beware...but it was worth it for me.

The article really gets at it though - the emotional abuse is so strangling and hard to shake even as adults.

I'm sure I rambled and this probably didn't help much but I thought I'd take a stab at it.

Narcissistic parents lack empathy which is the most damaging thing.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:54 AM
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I actually just asked about detachment with my therapist. After working with her for years and being in Al-Anon for years I am finally starting to get that I don't completely understand it.

I still don't, but what she helped me to see what detachment is about removing myself from something I don't have any say in already (another person's choices).

It does not mean I don't have feelings about another person's choices.

I get the two very mixed up. Part is my co-dependency, part is my fear of emotions as I did not learn that they existed as a child etc.

I totally agree as someone with significant codependency that it is a way for me to distract and not be vulnerable as have a lot of other coping behaviors been about NOT feeling for me.

I am learning in the last six months that even when I feel cruddy it beats stuffing it and not feeling at all. I just continue to struggle with this on my own and not in the "comfort" of my therapist or others.

Great thread.
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Old 10-28-2013, 07:00 AM
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Thank you for posting these, Aeryn -- I look forward to watching them! I've heard a lot of good about her but never gotten around to watching any of her talks.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LifeRecovery View Post
I actually just asked about detachment with my therapist. After working with her for years and being in Al-Anon for years I am finally starting to get that I don't completely understand it.

I still don't, but what she helped me to see what detachment is about removing myself from something I don't have any say in already (another person's choices).

It does not mean I don't have feelings about another person's choices.
I really like this distinction on detachment...you said it so well. Could we take it one step further and say detachment is about being able to feel your own feelings about someone's choices without the need to try to make your feelings their feelings? So they can be themselves with their own choices and feelings without you needing to agree with it or try to change it? Even though I'm not with an active A I still think there may be other times in life where detachment plays in.



I totally agree as someone with significant codependency that it is a way for me to distract and not be vulnerable as have a lot of other coping behaviors been about NOT feeling for me.

I am learning in the last six months that even when I feel cruddy it beats stuffing it and not feeling at all. I just continue to struggle with this on my own and not in the "comfort" of my therapist or others.
I definitely agree with the first part.

On the second part I also agree I would rather go through a period of feeling not so great then feel nothing on autopilot like I used to do - you can't feel good if you don't feel bad sometimes.

However I was wondering why you struggle alone father than with the therapist or others? Is this part of the healing I haven't gotten to yet? I was thinking seeking out help is a good thing (goes back to vulnerability) but maybe it's about balance.
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Aeryn View Post
On the second part I also agree I would rather go through a period of feeling not so great then feel nothing on autopilot like I used to do - you can't feel good if you don't feel bad sometimes.

However I was wondering why you struggle alone father than with the therapist or others? Is this part of the healing I haven't gotten to yet? I was thinking seeking out help is a good thing (goes back to vulnerability) but maybe it's about balance.
I struggle to let myself "feel" when I am alone. The distraction mechanisms kick in, and I seem to continue to return to old, poor coping mechanisms. Is it better then it was, ABSOLUTELY! Is it harder when I am by myself then in the presence of my support (at this point paid support mostly). I have a sneaking suspicion that in part it is about how hard self-care can be for me. I also have found that I get great support in Al-Anon, and in therapy, but I have not quite figured out how to get support in other ways. Again it is better, but I get myself into relationships with others that frankly often trigger the same patterns I was in with my ex. I just need to find some balance right now that is not quite there yet. I feel like I am getting individual puzzle pieces in place, but can not quite see the picture the puzzle is going to make.

I did not mean for it to come across as me beating myself up, because it is not that, it is just the challenging spot that I am in at the moment.

So much of this is old, old patterns for me. Ones in place, not because of trauma necessarily, but because they were in there from such a young age that I don't even know they are there.
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