FireSprite

So, here's my situation... sorry it's so long.

My sister's ex is the father of her 2-yr old. He is a continually relapsing alcoholic & has been through rehab on 3 separate occasions. He has treated her horribly (of course) and pops in & out of their lives without regularity. Sometimes he is in & out of the state as he runs from relative to relative, burning bridges. He is anything but trustworthy & dependable & since he can't support himself for more than a few weeks at a time, is always needing to have a girlfriend willing to foot the bill to support him... so it goes without saying that he provides zero support for his son. In the early part of their relationship he went back to his ex-wife so many times I lost count, then they both harrassed her throughout her entire pregnancy. You all know the typical behavior - verbal abuse, lies, circus games. He's gone so far as to harrass my 13-yr old niece via Words with Friends on her Kindle when he couldn't get through any other way.

She feels like keeping things at a friendly distance is enough - that having him help out with the baby for a few hours here & there is better than getting no support at all. She seems to believe that she has some element of control over the situation & since she doesn't really understand addiction, she's convinced that since he's burned all his bridges & she's not buying his BS anymore that things are OK "enough".

I do NOT believe this. I believe that like every other time, this is simply a moment of calm inside the storm. He's not sober, isn't committed to any kind of recovery program, and the only change he's made is which girl he's sweet-talking into giving him a place to live & paying for his car. He is never without cigarettes or weed yet can't manage to supply his son with a diaper or a meal.

It's only a matter of time before the drama begins again. The last time he left town she got complacent & then freaked out when he called to say he was in town & going to her house.... calling me from work & begging my RAH to get to her house first & change the locks before he got there. We refused - we weren't in a position to be able to drop everything & go running to her rescue ~again~ and of course, he wasn't back... he told her later he just wanted her scared & to know that he *could* be there if he wanted to.

So now Halloween is coming & we have always taken the kids trick-or-treating together. This year she's agreed to let the Moron join her & her son because she has this impression that he's still a decent father who deserves to be included in his kids' life & that her son deserves for her to suck it up & deal in order for him to be able to develop a relationship with his dad. More crap, in my thinking. She throws this plan-change out at me with a kind of "too bad if you don't like it" attitude that they'll just go on their own if I don't want him to join us. Basically that I'm being a harda$$ who can't let go of the past. (ridiculous - the cycle is that there is never more than a couple of months in between "incidents")

I can't stand to look at this person. He sickens me, I find him detestable & he knows it. My instincts say to stay far away & to keep DD far away. The old me would have been verbal & told him exactly what I think of him, but "Not my monkey, not my circus", right? My ACoA issues make me want to stand up & defend my sister but I've learned to develop better boundaries & that my sister's problems are not mine to solve.

I hate making DD miss out on Halloween with her cousin but I seriously worry about spending even a couple of hours with him. DD is not comfortable with him & has told my sister as much. I can go & ignore him but how comfortable is THAT? We're not talking about a big room full of people - we're talking about a few adults & 3 kids out TOTing, something that should be fun & lighthearted. WWYD?

Flicka57

WWYD? I would explain to my sister that I am uncomfortable being around her ex and so is my daughter and tell her you are choosing other plans. Do something special just the two of you & make it a memorable night for both of you!

MsPINKAcres

untreated al-anons & active alcoholics are a BIG trigger for me

I know if I want to enjoy a festive occasion - I have to limit my interaction with the above mentioned individuals ~ I can do it if I need to but if I have other options - I select other options.

So I might would start out the night TOT with sister and have a Plan B exit strategy in place if things get out of hand ~ have an idea for location Trunk or Treat to take DD to if you have to leave.
or
By-pass TOT with sister and go straight to fun Trunk or Treat site with DD and maybe a friend of hers ~ enjoy the night with any stress or drama

Options and choices ~ always an excellent plan for a prepared healthy momma!!!

Happy TOT whatever you decide to do ~

pink hugs!

NWGRITS

Ditto to all of the above. I have a very difficult time with alcoholics and raging codies. Unfortunately, my career path exposes me to both more often than I like. I try to stick to business and bite my tongue, but it's so hard. I used to see a woman who reminded me in every way of my AM, and I would have to call my husband to talk me down. Yeah, I have a wee bit of PTSD.

BlueSkies1

If it bothered me that much to be around someone, then around them I would not be.
End of story.

FireSprite

You know, typing it all out & then reading it back it's just so easy & obvious.

I don't know why when it comes to these types of situations I doubt myself - my sister knows almost nothing about true addiction & somehow I let her passive-aggressively make me doubt what I know to be true. I haven't been wrong about this jerk yet & I'm not wrong now. Just because she doesn't like my opinion doesn't make her right. DD is going to miss seeing her cousin on the holiday but it's not worth compromising my values or ignoring my gut instinct just to keep from rocking the boat.

Thanks.

NWGRITS

You are teaching your DD valuable life lessons in how you handle this. Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable. You don't have to make yourself uncomfortable or put up with inappropriate people at your own expense. You go, mom. Family can add an extra layer of discomfort to these situations, but you're handling it beautifully.

spiderqueen

This is your guiding light, FireSprite! Which of course, you already knew. I just wanted to acknowledge it.

Recovering2

Your sister can choose for herself how she handles her relationship with this guy. But you don't have to follow her choices. You have the right to decide for yourself what your boundaries are. She may have her reaction to that, and that's okay. It doesn't need to change what you do for yourself. You have to respect her desicion to include him, and she has to respect your decision to make other plans. I could not, and would not, be around someone who is still active and creating angst for me. Life is too short......

marie1960

Check your local community calendar, perhaps there are other Halloween activities going on on in the area, that the cousins could attend together , away from the very mean and scary clown.

I'm with everyone else, keep your distance you don't have to be apart of that nonsense.

FireSprite

This is the image I will have every time his name comes up from now on.... I cannot stop laughing!!

I seriously love you guys!

FireSprite

I think that smilie pretty well sums up how this situation is going. I need to get this off my chest, so I figured I'd update in this thread.
Pull up a chair......

Yesterday my sister texted me about Halloween. Wondering if I'd given any thought to it. Honestly, since posting this here I had kind of forgotten it with the rest of Life happening. I told her I hadn't thought about it at all but that we hadn't planned on doing anything any different than in the past. (timing, which neighborhood to ToT, etc.) She said, well, since he's going I didn't know what you were thinking.

I told her that she was welcome to do whatever she wanted but that if things don't go wonderfully, she CANNOT come to me/us later & point the blame finger saying that we aren't accepting & accomodating. That you can't insert a person that you ALREADY KNOW causes dissention, expect people to slap on happy, fake faces & go out of their way to make him comfortable. And then later, when he pouts that your family isn't going out of their way to accept him, put it back on me as my problem. (this is what has happened in the past, every time) I reminded her that both RAH & I have issues with him, and that DD had very clearly stated her discomfort with him.

I got, "Fine, we'll go do our own thing then. I'm not telling him that he can't do ANOTHER thing with his kid." (as if, he's been this amazing dad & everyone is keeping him from developing a healthy relationship with his kid??) And do I have ANY IDEA what it's like to be in the middle like this all the time?

She went on to tell me how I am simply the most unforgiving person ever to exist, that he is TRYING and has been there for everything she has needed and that it's really just SO sad because he keeps asking what he can do to get me to like him again & show me that he's changing.



Are you FG kidding me right now????????? I told her to stop playing the victim here & cut the crap. She did NOT take that well.


As of our conversation TWO WEEKS AGO, he was still quacking all over the place. Threatening to drag her to court, etc. etc. Providing ZERO support, and had started drama between her & his new girlfriend. So in that short amount of time, things have changed SO dramatically that I am just being an unforgiving grudge monster? (and apparantly, I'm supposed to know all of this in order to base my opinion on it, without her even telling me about all these amazing "changes")

He's TRYING? So..... he bought a package of diapers? Managed to free up a couple of hours to care for his child? That is what I should be basing my decision on, not the 3 years of constant back & forth abuse he's guilty of? How about the fact that he's had MANY dry spells like this but they ALWAYS, ALWAYS end badly.... and they ALWAYS end. This is what she does - minimize, minimize, minimize because it's EASIER to get along than to not. Because, right now, she *thinks* she has control of the situation.

She reiterated again, her whole point in texting was to ask if I'd be uncomfortable. I told her that she was being utterly disingenuine. She already knew the answer to that question BEFORE she asked, which puts me in the position of clearly re-stating my boundaries & then lets her shift the blame to me & it becomes MY fault everyone isn't getting along. (Don't you all WISH you had this kind of power over people? Who knew that MY forgiveness & acceptance can create world peace??) I told her that there was NO WAY for me to answer the question in a way that would make them both feel good about it & allow me to act with integrity within MY boundaries. That what she is fishing for is for me to say that unacceptable behavior is acceptable.

I do not comment on her life, ever, since I started my own codie recovery. I do not question her parenting decisions, tell her how to do things, offer any unsolicited opinions. When she goes off about him during one of his bad times, I am the Queen of the "Mmmmm hmmmm...", "Oh, geez" & "That's too bad" responses. How does this situation have ANYTHING to do with me?

It is very clear to me that my sister would benefit from therapy.

dandylion

FireSprite, sounds like she is in denial--the kind that we are all sooo familiar with--and, maybe ignorance (about alcoholism, etc..), also. You know her...and I don't...just going on what you have posted.

I agree with holding your boundaries. For your own integrity. You know, later, down the line...she might look back and realize where you were coming from.

With that in mind..given that she is your sister and she may look back at this, years later....

Just..."Say what you mean; mean what you say; but, don't say it mean".

Believe me, I do know how the sister thing can get us in a knot--been there...lots.

dandylion

FireSprite

I completely agree Dandylion, absolute denial with just enough ignorance to be dangerous to herself. I've been really impressed with myself that I've been able to stay rational, clearly & calmly state my boundaries & not feel "wrong" about enforcing them. This is the first time I've been able to see the "dance" and opt out of participating. Yay, me!

BlueSkies1

Firesprite--

Maybe you can take take the "blame" so to speak as being around him as your "problem".
Like-- I can't be positive, upbeat, and feel healthy around him, sis, so I have to keep my distance.
I love you sis, it's not about you!
Because at the end of the day, isn't that what it boils down to?
Sometimes it can feel good to take on the reason. You own what's yours. You don't feel healthy feelings around him. And YOU can be ok with that, and if you don't make it about her, she might learn to be ok with it too.

FireSprite

I totally agree Blue, and that is initially how I approached this situation.

When she was getting close to delivering the baby they were in the "things are ok again" part of the cycle. I was never slated to be her birthing coach, her BFF was, BUT since my niece wanted to be there for her brother's birth I offered to be there for HER in case she needed support. She was only 11 at the time & I could envision her freaking out, simply deciding it wasn't something she wanted to witness & needing someone to sit with her in the cafeteria to wait.

So I went to my sister & thought we had a really great convo - I told her that I wasn't telling her what to do but that it "seemed" like they were trying to work things through (he'd been "around" but she never would actually admit it {shame, I'm sure, she'd allowed him to move in & out no less than 4 times during those 9 months} - I had to read the clues & act accordingly) and that since I was very uncomfortable around him, I didn't trust myself to be able to put on the fake, happy smile/attitude if I showed up at the hospital & he was there. I told her that this was HER life, HER child's birth & that if she decided she'd rather have him there, I'd very happily bow out.... but to please don't wait until she goes into labor to make the decision & have it be a big deal in the delivery room. I told her to think it through, don't make a decision that moment & that my feelings would not be hurt either way.

I really thought I handled it with respect & sincerity & I was really, really proud of myself.

In the couple of weeks before she went into labor, she had allowed him to move back in with her but never admitted that to anyone else. She called me to let me know to come to the hospital & I picked my mom up on the way. We sat with her through the entire night - her BFF? Yeah, she was too tired to come to the hospital that late at night so she never showed until about 5 mins before it was time to push the next morning. Him? I had no idea, wasn't even aware how much he had been in the picture and since things literally changed day to day between them, I didn't try keeping up.

Months later I was informed in a nasty tone that he had sat in the parking lot all night long and that I had kept him from being there for the birth of his son. That I had put her in the worst position by issuing ultimatums like that & that I backed her into a corner & forced her to choose between us. This has come up multiple times & I finally had it - told her she could twist it however she wanted but I remember clearly how non-judgemental/no ultimatums that conversation was & that if she heard it differently that was on HER, not me. I told her to never, ever bring up the BS again.

Soooooo, waitaminute...... him causing chaos, threatening you, manipulating you, allowing his ex-wife to call you & say disgusting things (like how's she's going to follow you home from work & cut that baby out of your belly).... that's all forgivable. But my coming to you in a respectful way, owning my limitations & offering to stay out of the situation was wrong & makes it all MY fault. Because *I'm* somehow to blame for all the abuse he heaps on you.

I'm getting a bit angry the more I think about it.

FireSprite

And btw - RAH I were talking this over last night & he tends to lay back & let the family dynamic play through... no strong opinions, he tries to stay on the sidelines.

And then when I was recalling how DD had gone to my sister on her own, over the summer, to express her discomfort at him being there & gone & back again, the whole conversation changed.

He either didn't remember me telling him about this incident or had somehow forgotten about it. (I was PO'd, my kid went to her, expressed REAL concerns & she waited WEEKS to tell me about it. Said she'd "handled" it, but since our POV is so different I disagree... she is not in a position to counsel MY child about this. ESPECIALLY since we are a family in recovery & our definitions & limits are very different than hers) But this point definitely didn't get by him now.

He said (& I had already decided this) that if DD is uncomfortable around him then nothing else matters. Her instincts are strong & historically accurate & there is nothing further to discuss; this alone warrants keeping our distance.

I am definitely not wrong for protecting my kid from ANYTHING that she perceives to be uncomfortable or threatening.

RhodeIsland

Fire, I'm so sorry. We all hear, see your anger and pain. It seems you really love your sister, and you want the best for her. you've seen how this man treats your sister, and it makes you angry. It hurts that when you express your feelings/desire not to be around her A, she results in attacking and blaming you for problems in her life. She has tried desperately to make this man part of her life, an extension of herself - her partner. When she believes she is making headway w/ him, she wants to so badly to believe it. Is it possible she takes the feelings you have towards her A as an attack on the life she's chosen? As a judgement upon her, and that's the driving force behind her anger towards you?

She seems very deep into her codependence. Unfortunately, only she can choose to end it. If her A is behaving well, it may mean to see your sister you'll be in his presence. It's your choice. It just seems your sister is saying "this is part of my life, and you have to accept it." It doesn't mean you have to engage, or kiss the A's butt while in his presence. You just have to accept your sister has made the choice to have him in her life.

Obviously, protecting your child is priority number one. The question is, can your child be safe if visiting your sister w/ her A present. My role models were my parents, not low-life boyfriends who were dating my aunt. I remember as a child talking to my cousins about the man dating their mother, and how much we all couldn't stand him, how he was a loser, a leach, a jerk all of it. My parents could not stand this man either.

Unfortunately, he has married my aunt - been for the past 13 or 14 years. In that time, he's worked maybe one or two years. He's sabotaged careers, and been a chronic student. He has driven all 3 of her children out of their house by the time they were 18 or 19. A few years ago, around Christmas he my aunt and him came to visit. Her children (my cousins) had arrived separately earlier, bringing their own food dishes, presents inside my parents house. When my aunt and him arrived, they started unloading the car - some of their food dishes, presents etc. I was there and offered to give my aunt a hand - and her husband said something to the effect of "*** and *** (my cousins) should be helping us unload, where are they, they should be giving us a hand" and I said "well, ****** you weren't here to help them unload their cars, it's a 15 foot walk to the door from your car. What, are you afraid of walking or something? Might have to take two trips?". He gave me real angry look, didn't say anything and kept walking. As an adult, I don't model his behavior despite having seen him on holidays. He's an example of what isn't acceptable. He's a warning of what not to become. It felt awesome calmly telling him off.

The choice is yours, and yours alone. Your sister loves you, and that's why she is reacting with so much hostility. It's irrational, it's sad; but this is how people are.

FireSprite

I do believe she interprets my opinion as Judgement, definitely. And I also know that I can't change that perspective for her, she has to see it herself. We have a long history of ACoA dysfunction & it's only since I started this process of recovery that I understood it.

They aren't together as a couple, he lives with another woman in a different part of the city. (if/when that relationship falls apart then he will ramp up his A behavior toward my sister, if history repeats.)

This makes it all the more ridiculous to me - is it really necessary for us to be able to be in the same room for anything outside of my nephew's birthday party? Is it really fair that she expects to be able to include him in OUR family plans, when he is effectively NOT a part of the family?

I do NOT trust leaving DD in her care if he is present.... I was furious when she was allowing him to stay with her over the summer & never told me about it despite the fact that my DD was there 1 full day per week all summer long. That was when DD went to her directly & expressed her discomfort - not only at having him around but the fact that her aunt was knowingly allowing him to be around her without my consent or knowledge. She felt like she was being put in the position to lie to me - and then, my sister "handled" it and still didn't say a word to me about any of it for weeks.

No 9-yr old should have to be more responsible or mature than the adults involved. I'm SO lucky that she is aware enough to acknowledge her gut tingles & is not afraid to express herself.

This thread has been so helpful, I can't thank you ALL enough. I am starting to really see just how unreasonable & unacceptable this all is. I think that this is the exact kind of situation that people don't understand can be so damaging, and keeps us trapped in bad patterns.

RhodeIsland

He is family to her right now. He is someone she has chosen to be her partner. It's not necessary to me or you, but to her it's everything. It's her having a "family". It doesn't have to make sense.

This has to be addressed with DD - that she is not to lie to you. DD and you as well needs to make it clear ahead of time to the aunt - that DD will not lie to her. Don't even ask, that's the boundary YOUR family has. It was wrong of her to lie to you. That is a valid reason to be angry, and in the future it might have to be that DD doesn't go over there without a parent present. Or if DD does, then this has to all be settled out. Arguing with her the reasons will only elicit a defensive response. It has to be clear you're not OK with it. That's all. I wouldn't explain, justify, or any of it. I'm not here to argue, I"m letting you know I don't want my daughter over there if your A will be there and we're not present. That's all. I respect your right to make the decision to have your A in your life. However, I don't want my daughter over there if he's there. She needs to respect your boundaries - and you must respect her choice. As painful as it is.

It's the only way you, and your daughter will have a relationship with her while her A is still part of her life. It sounds like otherwise, she's a good person.

The next time he hurts her, the next time he abandons her, or is drinking... when she moves towards fixing herself and ending her codependency with him - you can be there. Being non-judgemental is what people on this forum do, and we see people who are in deep, deep denial about their A's, their relationships, travel across the spectrum and end their codependency. You love your sister, and she loves you. It's a lot easier to approach you when things do go bad if you're still seeing each other and talking.