Co-dependancy advice

Old 08-20-2013, 06:32 PM
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I have been thinking about the passive aggressive thing. I think of passive aggressive more like the person who has a problem with me but can't tell me directly so then acts all weird about it...So does me avoiding someone's rude advances classify as passive aggressive even when the person is being rude?

So if I had said something to her directly in response to her behavior I would have had to deal with her trying to bargain with me, walking away or go off on me. How do you handle it past that point?

Either way I think I would feel bad because I thought I hurt someone's feelings. I'm going to try to be more upfront when I communicate next time so from my end of things I feel like I have spoken my peace.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:57 PM
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Obviously we can have different definitions for the same thing.

To me, ignoring that her behavior made you uncomfortable was passive, then moving away & ignoring her was silently aggressive. I think when we hear aggressive we think loud, obnoxious, etc, but to me it means using actions in place of words when its combined with passive communication.

I think she had the wrong idea about the date-not date thing & got confused when her expectations weren't met.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ZenMe View Post
So if I had said something to her directly in response to her behavior I would have had to deal with her trying to bargain with me, walking away or go off on me. How do you handle it past that point?

Either way I think I would feel bad because I thought I hurt someone's feelings. I'm going to try to be more upfront when I communicate next time so from my end of things I feel like I have spoken my peace.
There are a lot of assumptions you are making about what would have happened if...and that is what I recognize in myself as a codie trait. Also using phrases like, "I shouldn't have to feel bad about this." From what I have read, no one is making you feel bad about this except you. I am the queen of that.

You might have asked her to back off a bit right away and she might have done so. Or she might have flipped out. Or any number of a million other responses. But none of that happened. Both of you made assumptions and neither of you bothered to set them straight. It is over and like Dandylion so wisely said, no one died. You are feeling bad and I think it is worth exploring what that is about if you feel like you are repeatedly in a position where you wonder if you are letting someone else down when you make choices based on your own comfort and well-being.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:46 PM
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We are human beings, and maybe you are just a bit shaken by her behavior, especially if you have never experienced something like that before. You expected a bike ride, she expected...well, something else. I am far away from being an expert, but honestly, I just do not think this involves codependency. It is just an unpleasant little episode/misunderstanding, and you will forget about it. Life goes on.
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
Again ~speaking for ME~

I think of the fear (i.e. "scared of confrontation") as the root issue, but the behavior covering it as pass/agg. I don't feel badly about the fear, that's worthy of examination & healing.... but the behavior that I use to cover it/hide it/react to it? THAT bothers me & THAT I can choose to change. Bonus when it leads to better communication, firmer boundaries & raised self-esteem sometimes, lol!

This was ESPECIALLY hard for me when dealing with my mom & sister....apparently that was the ONLY way we HAD been interacting & I never truly saw my part of the codependent dance with them!
Thank you so much for this! My behavior really bothers me, and you're spot on that it is passive aggressive. Someone does something to upset me, I don't tell them, and then I avoid them and hurt their feelings.

And like you, it is absolutely the worst with my mother. The last time I tried to deal directly with my mother (something regarding my addict brother), she cried and made other people in my family talk to me on her behalf. My children would have handled the situation better than she did. It was so uncomfortable and upsetting, that I am back to avoiding any confrontation with her whatsoever. I hold so many feelings back when I am with her, that I find myself constantly frustrated, and snappy. I know I can't let her reactions stop me from acting in a way that it right for me, but it is so hard to change.

You really helped me because I think being able to name the way I'm acting is going to help give me the courage to change. The last thing I want to be is passive aggressive. Plus, it's bad for my health!
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:50 AM
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This phrase from Al-Anon really helped me with this stuff.

Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean.

It is my job to say it, it is NOT my job to control someone's reaction to what I say. That was confused for me for a long time. I kept thinking if they did not react appropriately it was my fault for not saying it right.

It is hardest for me with people I have the most invested in. It also helped when I realized that people might get their feelings hurt when I was straightforward, but they were DEFINATELY getting them hurt when I was wishywashy....and I was too.

For me it was like a muscle that I had to keep working. Al-Anon and therapy helped.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:16 AM
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Melody Beattie AUGUST 20th in the : Language of Letting Go

(part of it says) we can set boundaries and DEFINE freindships when those cause confusion. We have the right to our boundaries, wants and needs...

I agree with DG0409, you made it clear to her what you did not want when you moved...

you asked her for a "ride" thats all...to me what she interped it was HER expectations..not yours, you dont own that...

I am dating...i know the rules...new friends 1st...(and that is mine)
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:32 AM
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I think of passive aggressive more like the person who has a problem with me but can't tell me directly so then acts all weird about it...So does me avoiding someone's rude advances classify as passive aggressive even when the person is being rude?
You had a problem with her behavior, you didn't tell her directly, and then acted all weird about it. You're posting on a BB about whether or not you were weird or justified.

She thought this was a date. She thought you liked her. You didn't, and she left. You didn't like her forwardness, and so you ignored her.

If a guy asked me out on a ride, I would assume there were romantic feelings there and might act accordingly. I don't think this is some crazy jump to foregone conclusions. It just sounds like a date.

I appreciate that she came on too hard too soon for your taste, but I encourage you to own what's yours here: You decided -- after inviting her into your friend circle -- that acting with emotional distance/passive aggression was preferable to saying what you felt. She got your point, sure, but now you have the yucky feelings that go along with all the awkwardness of poor communication.

Remember, YOU invited HER. You don't owe her sex, a date, a drink, a ride, or an explanation, but the decency of stating your intentions as soon as confusion was present would have been good. It's the decent and ethical thing to do.

If she reacted poorly to your clarification, that's on her. But you didn't give her the chance.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:40 AM
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A sidenote: I've been *WAY* up front since the divorce started that I'm not looking to date and this isn't a date and I'm not ready to date. There is no ambiguity. If I'm getting together with someone, it's for enjoyable company. It sounds awkward, but I'm telling you a good sense of humor and the ability to laugh at oneself softens any blow.

If someone isn't mature enough to understand that, they're not your pal.

When I'm ready to date, I'll find a way to make it light and funny and CLEAR also.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Florence View Post

If a guy asked me out on a ride, I would assume there were romantic feelings there and might act accordingly. I don't think this is some crazy jump to foregone conclusions. It just sounds like a date.
that is your EXPECTATIONS..

this was HER behaviour and HER expectations......and yes, he RE-ACTed poorly...

no, this was was clearly a co dependent...she was clearly stating she was a "people pleaser" without even knowing him..

just my opinion
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by FireSprite View Post
To me, ignoring that her behavior made you uncomfortable was passive, then moving away & ignoring her was silently aggressive. I think when we hear aggressive we think loud, obnoxious, etc, but to me it means using actions in place of words when its combined with passive communication.

I think she had the wrong idea about the date-not date thing & got confused when her expectations weren't met.
As a woman who is out in the dating world again - I'm with Firesprite on this one. It was a passive-aggressive maneuver on your part to communicate this way, versus being up-front and direct with your expectations. She obviously thought this was a date. And think about how you asked her to begin with. Were you clear on your plans of "just hanging out as friends?"

I can't help but wonder if this isn't about codependency as much as it is about doing something wrong (but not intentionally). You feel that sense of "guilt" or responsibility toward her because you may very well have caused the confusion to begin with by not being clear on what you thought this was going to be. And she got the wrong idea, you got super uncomfortable, she got her feelings hurt, nothing was ever acknowledged, and now you feel bad about it. I'm sure she feels like an idiot now, too, whether or not she acted inappropriately with her touchy-feely behavior.

To me, this is normal, and its part of the dating dance. Learning how to communicate directly with someone we don't know well is challenging! Being able to clearly articulate one's expectations right up front is a skill that we have to learn. And there are ways to handle this with grace and diplomacy too, but again, its a skill to invite someone close but set clear boundaries at the same time.

Either way - do you owe her anything? That's up to you to decide. Seems these days, people choose to go the easy route and do the "fade" or "vanish" instead of saying anything. And it seems universally accepted, even though I don't follow that practice myself. I prefer to clear up misunderstandings, because even if it doesn't matter to the other person, it matters to me. And I act in accordance to what is important to me anyway. Plus, if I feel I have sent the wrong signals and confused someone (and I have - its part of the dating dance, as I wrote above) I want to address it and wrap it all up in a nice little bow, so it doesn't hang over my head. I see this not as codependency, but as a form of respect to myself and others.

Anyway - bottom line is dating itself is fraught with complexities, and confusion is often inevitable, and we do the best we can in situations like these (even when your intentions were not to date her). Take it as a learning lesson!
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:47 AM
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Sure, but I'm saying her expectations were COMPLETELY NORMAL. His dismissal of her feelings and public rejection of her in front of his friends was extremely unkind.

I've been on both sides of this arrangement, and I can say without fail that being invited to do something by a guy I liked, then clearly rejected by him in front of his friends is gross and disappointing. I get that confrontation is hard, but it's what adults do.

If it were her here telling this story, we'd tell her that while her expectations may not have been ideal, that was a jerk move on his part.

I believe that, ZenMe. Sorry.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Florence View Post
I'm saying her expectations were COMPLETELY NORMAL.
i disagree, her expectiations are not normal...

i was never taught that when dating...i was taught by my parents and seen in friends...go, and have fun...AS FRIENDs...you have no foundation for anything else...

I cant say what she really is on here...but its not nice....
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:54 AM
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First off thanks for everyone's input. It is really helping and it's good to see both sides of it.

From what I have been reading the way I act, "train" other people with my behavior is co-dependent in nature, and I do believe it's related to this case behind the scenes.

I don't subcribe to the totally be upfront or just drop hints till they get it. I think inching a way a few times and intially regaining my space was fine, and a subtle hint. When she kept pressing on instead of totally avoiding her at that point I should have said something.

Short of saying "I just want to take a ride as friends, I'm not looking for anything romantic at all, this isn't going to lead anywhere" it was clear...although I understand she must have thought it was a date!

Her behavior was extremely inappropriate and I reacted poorly. Also I just reacted, I didn't even stop to think of a better way to handle it, next time I will be mindfull of this.

Funny though if you reverse the rolls and I had been the one practically trying to make out with her in a public place it would have been "oh he's a creep". Where as here, she just "thought it was a date".

In the future if I'm talking to a girl and she wants go hiking, I say ok let's go here, I will tell her then and there that I'm only interested in friends.

I'm also not looking for absolution from people on SR. I just know there has to be a better way to handle things where it doesn't occupy my brain later =). I think I've seen it happen!

and **** does happen! btw I'm also not dating, I haven't put myself back in the pool. She mentioned she liked my bike and it went from there. It's very common for people to ride together and not be on a date.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ZenMe View Post
Funny though if you reverse the rolls and I had been the one practically trying to make out with her in a public place it would have been "oh he's a creep". Where as here, she just "thought it was a date".
My thought - it wouldn't happen that way at all ^^^.

We'd tell you that you acted inappropriately by assuming this was a date without clarifying it with her first. And that she should have been more clear with her expectations toward you too!

This thread made me think about communication. I recently had a similar situation when I told a long-time friend that I liked him after a fun day at a local festival. Apparently I gave him the idea that I like-liked him (as he put it later) and the guy literally spent the next four days blowing up my phone with texts and calls. I had to have the awkward "sorry I didn't mean it that way" talk with him. And in all honesty, I look back and realize I do like him, and would have considered dating, if he hadn't have lost his freakin' mind and irritated me with the sudden barrage of attention.

What I do now is clarify right from the get go. I actually ask "Is this a date?" Or "wow, thanks for the compliments. are you hitting on me?" all said with a smile, of course, to keep it light-hearted. That way, the guy can feel comfortable clarifying it himself, and I have yet to have a guy feel put-off by that approach; mostly they laugh right back.

My experiencing with letting body language do the talking only works to a point, and with some folks, not at all. And then there are folks who have absolutely no boundaries whatsoever so they won't recognize yours at all. But again, I just don't think this is codependency as much as it is a communication issue. Codependency, in my opinion, would have looked like you actually placating this woman in order to not hurt her feelings. Instead you protected your own boundaries and your own comfort level. Make sense?
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:30 AM
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I was in the middle of writing a post identical to Tuffgirl's when my browser crashed and lost it. So I'll just say "seconded"!
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:39 AM
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Tuffgirl,

Thanks those are some good pointers.

But again, I just don't think this is codependency as much as it is a communication issue. Codependency, in my opinion, would have looked like you actually placating this woman in order to not hurt her feelings.
I agree that this is a communication issue, behind the scenes some of my codependent characteristics are at a play. Things like not being able to be upfront because of not wanting to deal with fallout and what not. In other words, me being a codie is what has lead me to not even think before I reacted in that fashion.

Instead you protected your own boundaries and your own comfort level. Make sense?
Sounds like I'm on the right track, just need to execute better. One thing I do see is it shouldn't have to take that kind of behavior to make me want to guard my boundaries. If it hadn't been so severe in my mind, I would have been caught up in the pleasing part.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:11 PM
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Avoidance used to be my standard MO -- it's where I go first when I'm in conflict and not thinking and being mindful of my actions and feelings. Also, laughing off unacceptable behavior, like "Oh you!" when inside I'm thinking Oh, you awful, person! How I loathe you, let me count the ways!

Regrettably, I think about some of the times I avoided conflict to the detriment of myself and people I really liked/loved, and realize it made me kind of a ****ty friend.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:02 PM
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Zenme-

When I went back and read your first post, it was unclear to me, who asked who to what (that it what I was confused about earlier).

When I read it the second time it looked like she asked you to go on a ride?

Not that it changes things completely, but that was confusing for me from the get go.
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:18 PM
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She asked if I would go for a ride with her and I said sure let's meet at this bar since I was going to be there and central to both of us.
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