Is he capable of a relationship?
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 11,481
Originally Posted by northend79 
I should be clear, this man holds a job and has never lost one. It is a career, he is very successful with that, and earns a sizeable income ( money means nothing I realize, but to illustrate he is succesful in that area ).
Maybe set your heart aside for a bit and do some reading about alcoholism (and maybe codependence as well?) There are many excellent stickied threads at the top of this page. There's also a section of the forum for Adult Children of Alcoholics; if you want more insight into the effects of an alcoholic parent on the kids, take some time and read there, too.
Were you ever involved in Alanon when in your relationship w/your XAH? I think it might be worth looking into now solely for its educational value--maybe consider that, too.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
I held my highly-respected and well-compensated job to the end. It was when I could see that I wasn't going to be able to hold it together much longer that I quit drinking. But I was drinking alcoholically (and progressively worse) for ten years before I quit. So having the great career doesn't mean a thing in terms of how bad he is or how bad it's likely to get.
I was also a nice person. I never stopped being a nice person, though I became an increasingly unreliable and undependable person.
Looking good on the outside is absolutely NO predictor of what's going on inside. The clues that you CAN observe--the reported problems, the minimization of the alcohol problem, the continued drinking and repeated "slips"--indicate that what's going on, on the inside, isn't too promising.
I was also a nice person. I never stopped being a nice person, though I became an increasingly unreliable and undependable person.
Looking good on the outside is absolutely NO predictor of what's going on inside. The clues that you CAN observe--the reported problems, the minimization of the alcohol problem, the continued drinking and repeated "slips"--indicate that what's going on, on the inside, isn't too promising.
box of chocolates
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,013
Originally Posted by honeypig
Happyheather, I (and others here) have LIVED w/our A's and have not been able to tell if/how much they were drinking. A phone conversation is definitely not an absolute indicator of him being sober, just b/c he's not obviously slurring, repeating himself, etc. You truly don't have any way of knowing what he is doing or not doing (nor will you necessarily know even if you live in the same house!).
I was reading another thread here where the OP was realizing how much she was always qualifying/defending about her A. "oh, he's normally really nice!" "really, he's a good guy otherwise!" It had dawned on her that she shouldn't need to do this. And she is right. Take a look at your posts--should you need to be "forced to take it slow"? Should you have any reason to wonder if "this woman was just exaggerating?" And as others have already said, there is nothing about this guy to indicate that he's in any kind or stage of recovery.
What is it you find so attractive about this guy? The chance to rescue him, to really understand him and to stand by him b/c you're different from the others? (After all, he took down his dating profiles after he met you, which he didn't do for the other woman, so you MUST be special...). If this is the case, please, please don't let this kind of overly romantic crap cloud your mind and heart. It's a hook, nothing more, and will only serve to keep you in pain longer once everything starts to go bad, which it will. Check out this thread about hooks http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...tionships.html
Really, EnglishGarden said everything you need to know. Please listen.
I was reading another thread here where the OP was realizing how much she was always qualifying/defending about her A. "oh, he's normally really nice!" "really, he's a good guy otherwise!" It had dawned on her that she shouldn't need to do this. And she is right. Take a look at your posts--should you need to be "forced to take it slow"? Should you have any reason to wonder if "this woman was just exaggerating?" And as others have already said, there is nothing about this guy to indicate that he's in any kind or stage of recovery.
What is it you find so attractive about this guy? The chance to rescue him, to really understand him and to stand by him b/c you're different from the others? (After all, he took down his dating profiles after he met you, which he didn't do for the other woman, so you MUST be special...). If this is the case, please, please don't let this kind of overly romantic crap cloud your mind and heart. It's a hook, nothing more, and will only serve to keep you in pain longer once everything starts to go bad, which it will. Check out this thread about hooks http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...tionships.html
Really, EnglishGarden said everything you need to know. Please listen.
Sounds like op is demonstrating codependancy
Cant cure it. Monitoring his drinks dont work.
Op- think about what you wrote....
You know hes drinking what he says based on how he sounds.
Does that sound healthy???
Does it sound acceptable or normal to you?
You have no control over him like he has no control over alcohol.
Monitoring his drinking. Him monitoring his drinking. Telling yourself he hasnt lied this time or lied today about the amount hes drank is not a normal or healthy situation.
English garden did say it well and you are getting sucked in.
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: PA
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I haven't read all the post but yours and I want to tell you...
You want to see what 20 years sober looks like, take a look at my thread My Husband Was in a Motorcycle accident n tell me you really want this man in your life.
You want to see what 20 years sober looks like, take a look at my thread My Husband Was in a Motorcycle accident n tell me you really want this man in your life.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 5
he hasn't lied. he hasn't shared this information yet, so far it's second hand.
I am thinking of people I know who got sober while in relationships, why would this situation be different?
also, I am going to wait and see what he tells me about these things, so that I can make my own decisions based on what he says, rather than someone he dated and it didn't go well.
The one who told me said the woman he dated prior got very angry when he told her the truth or it came out, as she felt it was lying, but I understand not sharing everything right away. Everyone knows you don't go into a relationship baggage blaring. I understand why he hasn't shared yet. I am going to be as non judgemental as possible when he does.
And also, could someone not have a problem with alcohol based on life circumstance and then once they leave for example, an unhappy marriage, it is easier to get sober?
these are honest questions.
I am thinking of people I know who got sober while in relationships, why would this situation be different?
also, I am going to wait and see what he tells me about these things, so that I can make my own decisions based on what he says, rather than someone he dated and it didn't go well.
The one who told me said the woman he dated prior got very angry when he told her the truth or it came out, as she felt it was lying, but I understand not sharing everything right away. Everyone knows you don't go into a relationship baggage blaring. I understand why he hasn't shared yet. I am going to be as non judgemental as possible when he does.
And also, could someone not have a problem with alcohol based on life circumstance and then once they leave for example, an unhappy marriage, it is easier to get sober?
these are honest questions.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Why would you be non-judgmental? Don't you judge EVERYTHING about a person when you are starting to date? How he dresses? How he treats you? How he kisses? Whether he has a decent job? Whether you like his friends?
As to your second question, there are a FEW people who situationally overdrink, who are not alcoholics. If your guy fell into that category, he would not be binging while going to AA. He would just cut back or stop. People who situationally overdrink do that. A spouse dies, they drown their sorrows by numbing out for a few months, and then bounce back as they work through their grief and realize life goes on. They don't have to go to AA, and they don't continue to drink destructively while doing so. The fact that he apparently can't do that screams alcoholism.
As to your second question, there are a FEW people who situationally overdrink, who are not alcoholics. If your guy fell into that category, he would not be binging while going to AA. He would just cut back or stop. People who situationally overdrink do that. A spouse dies, they drown their sorrows by numbing out for a few months, and then bounce back as they work through their grief and realize life goes on. They don't have to go to AA, and they don't continue to drink destructively while doing so. The fact that he apparently can't do that screams alcoholism.
Better when never is never
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wisconsin near Twin Cities
Posts: 1,745
I am an alcoholic. I recognize my problem and I am trying to do something about. However, when I talked to my wife about it, her first we action was "well, you've been under a lot of stress." I tried to clearly show the link between how much I was drinking and all the problems in our lives. Her reaction? "You just need to control it some. It wasn't so bad."
Here I was, the alcoholic, screaming at her about the problem (not literally), laying the facts out on the table, and she still didn't want to see it. Just sayin...
Here I was, the alcoholic, screaming at her about the problem (not literally), laying the facts out on the table, and she still didn't want to see it. Just sayin...
box of chocolates
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,013
Originally Posted by happyheather
he hasn't lied. he hasn't shared this information yet, so far it's second hand.
I am thinking of people I know who got sober while in relationships, why would this situation be different?
also, I am going to wait and see what he tells me about these things, so that I can make my own decisions based on what he says, rather than someone he dated and it didn't go well.
The one who told me said the woman he dated prior got very angry when he told her the truth or it came out, as she felt it was lying, but I understand not sharing everything right away. Everyone knows you don't go into a relationship baggage blaring. I understand why he hasn't shared yet. I am going to be as non judgemental as possible when he does.
And also, could someone not have a problem with alcohol based on life circumstance and then once they leave for example, an unhappy marriage, it is easier to get sober?
these are honest questions.
I am thinking of people I know who got sober while in relationships, why would this situation be different?
also, I am going to wait and see what he tells me about these things, so that I can make my own decisions based on what he says, rather than someone he dated and it didn't go well.
The one who told me said the woman he dated prior got very angry when he told her the truth or it came out, as she felt it was lying, but I understand not sharing everything right away. Everyone knows you don't go into a relationship baggage blaring. I understand why he hasn't shared yet. I am going to be as non judgemental as possible when he does.
And also, could someone not have a problem with alcohol based on life circumstance and then once they leave for example, an unhappy marriage, it is easier to get sober?
these are honest questions.
Answer 2. First part confusing but second part.....unhappy marruage or happy marriage tgeres no easier to get sober. Alcoholism is a personal problem that is not caused by others.
I want to add that you acknowledge you know he has a drinking problem yet dont believe the ex whos said he has a drinking problem.
I think your making poor judgements and are excusing away everything.
Imo
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by happyheather
also, I am going to wait and see what he tells me about these things, so that I can make my own decisions based on what he says, rather than someone he dated and it didn't go well.
The one who told me said the woman he dated prior got very angry when he told her the truth or it came out, as she felt it was lying, but I understand not sharing everything right away. Everyone knows you don't go into a relationship baggage blaring. I understand why he hasn't shared yet. I am going to be as non judgemental as possible when he does.
The one who told me said the woman he dated prior got very angry when he told her the truth or it came out, as she felt it was lying, but I understand not sharing everything right away. Everyone knows you don't go into a relationship baggage blaring. I understand why he hasn't shared yet. I am going to be as non judgemental as possible when he does.
Also, keep in mind that what he tells you about his current problems might not be the reality. He might not know the reality, but you will definitely get to know it once you are steeped in his situation. It happened very quickly with my XA, who saw nothing wrong with his behavior. To him, he was "much better" than he used to be, and compared himself to the worst A's amongst his friends, as if that made what he was doing ok. It didn't take me long to realize that HE was fine with his behavior, no matter how it affected me. To him, that was MY problem. And in a way, it was....I didn't have to accept it. Just remember you don't, either.
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 183
Originally Posted by happyheather
he hasn't lied. he hasn't shared this information yet, so far it's second hand.
I am thinking of people I know who got sober while in relationships, why would this situation be different?
also, I am going to wait and see what he tells me about these things, so that I can make my own decisions based on what he says, rather than someone he dated and it didn't go well.
The one who told me said the woman he dated prior got very angry when he told her the truth or it came out, as she felt it was lying, but I understand not sharing everything right away. Everyone knows you don't go into a relationship baggage blaring. I understand why he hasn't shared yet. I am going to be as non judgemental as possible when he does.
And also, could someone not have a problem with alcohol based on life circumstance and then once they leave for example, an unhappy marriage, it is easier to get sober?
these are honest questions.
I am thinking of people I know who got sober while in relationships, why would this situation be different?
also, I am going to wait and see what he tells me about these things, so that I can make my own decisions based on what he says, rather than someone he dated and it didn't go well.
The one who told me said the woman he dated prior got very angry when he told her the truth or it came out, as she felt it was lying, but I understand not sharing everything right away. Everyone knows you don't go into a relationship baggage blaring. I understand why he hasn't shared yet. I am going to be as non judgemental as possible when he does.
And also, could someone not have a problem with alcohol based on life circumstance and then once they leave for example, an unhappy marriage, it is easier to get sober?
these are honest questions.
He will stop drinking not through the love of a "good woman" but because he wants to stop. He doesn't want to stop bad enough yet and meeting you isn't going to make him realize that he needs to quit. He will realize it or not on his own time table. You have nothing to do with it.
You do need to judge partners, all of us do. And especially since you will be re-exposing your children to another alcoholic. I don't get your stubborness. You left an alcoholic, why do you want another one so bad?
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 2,728
Originally Posted by trixie56
A 'slip' can seem minor, but until you see some serious dedication, the slips will probably continue.
Imagine sitting around the Christmas Tree n seeing all the beautiful gifts only to find out they're full of cow dung.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,062
Hey Heather,
So how long is "reasonable" for him to allow you to get emotionally involved before he "bares all" ....
My guess is, in his mind (and it might not even be conscious, but it is true behavior of an addict) it is just long enough to hook you in to thinking that you two are "different" and for you to believe that he can "change for you" .... Then he has carte blanche to steer the roller coaster in hopes you won't get off (like his wife did).
He's not even divorced yet sweetie! He hasn't even had enough time to process what went wrong last time (more likely he doesn't care because "he" didn't do anything wrong~she's the bit** that didn't "understand" him) he cheated on her instead of doing the leaving first and started putting himself out there for another rescuer. He has found you.
It IS appropriate to use judgement when it comes to selecting a partner for you and a role model for your children... What else do you have?
There are a host of people here who have spoken to you with wisdom and clarity who have been where you are, drank the Kool-aid he is serving, bought the t-shirt and then were left to sort it all out after after the devastation hit... Even when others advised against it. Me included!!!
I wish I would have listened and saved myself the absolute heartache...but he hooked me good. He Was handsome, successful, said all the right things...he also cheated and drank and made some bad decisions that should have sent me packing!!!! I fell hard and lost so much of myself in the pursuit of a wing and a prayer...
There are plenty of other men out there that won't bring this particular baggage that you have already lived through once before with your ex. Why would you want to go back there again???!!!
Ah well, your life, your choice. Keep the children FAR away and hopefully you will soon realize that you are worth way more than than having to question a new partner on a Sober Recovery site before the blush is even off the vine...
My very best to you Heather!!!
So how long is "reasonable" for him to allow you to get emotionally involved before he "bares all" ....
My guess is, in his mind (and it might not even be conscious, but it is true behavior of an addict) it is just long enough to hook you in to thinking that you two are "different" and for you to believe that he can "change for you" .... Then he has carte blanche to steer the roller coaster in hopes you won't get off (like his wife did).
He's not even divorced yet sweetie! He hasn't even had enough time to process what went wrong last time (more likely he doesn't care because "he" didn't do anything wrong~she's the bit** that didn't "understand" him) he cheated on her instead of doing the leaving first and started putting himself out there for another rescuer. He has found you.
It IS appropriate to use judgement when it comes to selecting a partner for you and a role model for your children... What else do you have?
There are a host of people here who have spoken to you with wisdom and clarity who have been where you are, drank the Kool-aid he is serving, bought the t-shirt and then were left to sort it all out after after the devastation hit... Even when others advised against it. Me included!!!
I wish I would have listened and saved myself the absolute heartache...but he hooked me good. He Was handsome, successful, said all the right things...he also cheated and drank and made some bad decisions that should have sent me packing!!!! I fell hard and lost so much of myself in the pursuit of a wing and a prayer...
There are plenty of other men out there that won't bring this particular baggage that you have already lived through once before with your ex. Why would you want to go back there again???!!!
Ah well, your life, your choice. Keep the children FAR away and hopefully you will soon realize that you are worth way more than than having to question a new partner on a Sober Recovery site before the blush is even off the vine...
My very best to you Heather!!!
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
HappyHeather, what concerns me is this.
There are three people involved in this situation, and let's call it a "potential lifestyle option":
1. Your kids
2. You
3. Him
4. "A happy marriage and family with him"
There are two points of view you need to take when you look at choosing to have a relationship with him or not:
You, as an adult woman, and you as a mother.
I don't see you looking at this from either the position of an adult woman or as a mother.
I see you looking at this from HIS point of view. You justify his behavior and rationalize it away. "He did "this" because of "that" reason. It could be bad, but really it is okay..."
You do not talk about how this will affect your children at all.
If I were to guess, I think that you have become infatuated with perspective No. 4 "A Happy Marriage and Family With Him" to the exclusion of all else.
The people posting here are trying to get you to look at their experience having lived with the consequences of making choices on the basis of No. 4. So far, no one has posted anything positive, and they've done that, been there, lived with the choice, and woefully regretted it and the damage it caused them and their children.
The real question, then, is "why are you stuck on defending No. 4, and refusing to consider No. 1. and No. 2, your children and you?
It is as if you are taking HIS point of view, No. 3, and assessing all these life changing choices in front of you from HIS perspective, not yours, not as a mother to your children.
Having not been able to understand these choices myself in the past, and finally realizing that I needed to comprehend and recover from whatever dysfunction inside me drove me to make this choice, I ask this question of you: What is going on that you have escaped a marriage with an alcoholic, and are so ready to put aside reality and jump into the fire again?
These questions, when we strip the surface presenting issue away, in my experience, become about who WE are and why WE are making bad choices. Bad opportunities will always present themselves. It is US we must focus on in order to learn to recognize and to choose genuinely good opportunities.
I don't mean to be harsh; this comes from my experience and echos the people who have posted here. We are all supportive of you, and want to save you the heartbreak we have lived.
Take what you want and leave the rest.
ShootingStar1
There are three people involved in this situation, and let's call it a "potential lifestyle option":
1. Your kids
2. You
3. Him
4. "A happy marriage and family with him"
There are two points of view you need to take when you look at choosing to have a relationship with him or not:
You, as an adult woman, and you as a mother.
I don't see you looking at this from either the position of an adult woman or as a mother.
I see you looking at this from HIS point of view. You justify his behavior and rationalize it away. "He did "this" because of "that" reason. It could be bad, but really it is okay..."
You do not talk about how this will affect your children at all.
If I were to guess, I think that you have become infatuated with perspective No. 4 "A Happy Marriage and Family With Him" to the exclusion of all else.
The people posting here are trying to get you to look at their experience having lived with the consequences of making choices on the basis of No. 4. So far, no one has posted anything positive, and they've done that, been there, lived with the choice, and woefully regretted it and the damage it caused them and their children.
The real question, then, is "why are you stuck on defending No. 4, and refusing to consider No. 1. and No. 2, your children and you?
It is as if you are taking HIS point of view, No. 3, and assessing all these life changing choices in front of you from HIS perspective, not yours, not as a mother to your children.
Having not been able to understand these choices myself in the past, and finally realizing that I needed to comprehend and recover from whatever dysfunction inside me drove me to make this choice, I ask this question of you: What is going on that you have escaped a marriage with an alcoholic, and are so ready to put aside reality and jump into the fire again?
These questions, when we strip the surface presenting issue away, in my experience, become about who WE are and why WE are making bad choices. Bad opportunities will always present themselves. It is US we must focus on in order to learn to recognize and to choose genuinely good opportunities.
I don't mean to be harsh; this comes from my experience and echos the people who have posted here. We are all supportive of you, and want to save you the heartbreak we have lived.
Take what you want and leave the rest.
ShootingStar1
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 2,899
For whatever reason, people love redemption stories. I like them too, on paper.
May I suggest that this guy likes you because you have a history of soft boundaries and have a willingness to tolerate unacceptable behavior around drinking and it's consequences?
May I suggest that you like him because you don't think, deep down, that you can hook a guy who doesn't have a laundry list of dire personal problems?
May I suggest that this guy likes you because you have a history of soft boundaries and have a willingness to tolerate unacceptable behavior around drinking and it's consequences?
May I suggest that you like him because you don't think, deep down, that you can hook a guy who doesn't have a laundry list of dire personal problems?
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
When it comes to alcoholism we did not cause it, we cannot control it and we cannot cure it.
And also, could someone not have a problem with alcohol based on life circumstance and then once they leave for example, an unhappy marriage, it is easier to get sober? No, the b.. did not push him to drink and is not the cause of his alcoholism, for all you know his behavior turned HER into a b...
If all it took was a good woman to set an alcoholic on his path to happy recovery and sobriety, there would no straight male drunks left in this country.
Originally Posted by happyheather
And also, could someone not have a problem with alcohol based on life circumstance and then once they leave for example, an unhappy marriage, it is easier to get sober?
I am thinking of people I know who got sober while in relationships, why would this situation be different?
Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,349
Originally Posted by thislonelygirl
Answer 1 . Because those couples are lucky. You should porobably research alcholism and statistics. Keep in mind how many actually remain sober till the day they die.
Answer 2. First part confusing but second part.....unhappy marruage or happy marriage tgeres no easier to get sober. Alcoholism is a personal problem that is not caused by others.
I want to add that you acknowledge you know he has a drinking problem yet dont believe the ex whos said he has a drinking problem.
I think your making poor judgements and are excusing away everything.
Imo
Answer 2. First part confusing but second part.....unhappy marruage or happy marriage tgeres no easier to get sober. Alcoholism is a personal problem that is not caused by others.
I want to add that you acknowledge you know he has a drinking problem yet dont believe the ex whos said he has a drinking problem.
I think your making poor judgements and are excusing away everything.
Imo
OP, you've come on here already with concerns about a man that you haven't been dating long. We are all concerned for you but we can't force you to do one thing or another. Only you can make that choice. Sending you lots of support virtually as you ponder over the feedback that you've received here on this board.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Happyheather,
You can see by now that people here feel very strongly about this subject - early dating and alcoholic red flags - its one that comes up regularly. I know its not what you want to hear. I didn't either when I first came here. And I took all the advice and wisdom to heart but made my own decisions anyway. That's perfectly ok.
You see these red flags, or you wouldn't have posted here. Don't ever ignore them...deal with them like you are today.
Ok, you want to investigate more? Do so with your eyes wide open and your heart halfway shut off. Protect yourself emotionally while you give it some time.
Good luck!
~T
You can see by now that people here feel very strongly about this subject - early dating and alcoholic red flags - its one that comes up regularly. I know its not what you want to hear. I didn't either when I first came here. And I took all the advice and wisdom to heart but made my own decisions anyway. That's perfectly ok.
You see these red flags, or you wouldn't have posted here. Don't ever ignore them...deal with them like you are today.
Ok, you want to investigate more? Do so with your eyes wide open and your heart halfway shut off. Protect yourself emotionally while you give it some time.
Good luck!
~T
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New England
Posts: 350
Heather, it's good to listen to what he says, but please please please take it slow, and listen to what he DOES.
I ignored lots of red flags, too. I don't recommend it.
Take care, and good luck whichever way you go.
I ignored lots of red flags, too. I don't recommend it.
Take care, and good luck whichever way you go.
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