Crazed

Not signing on for a beating here, but here goes-

Back in January I came to this forum for support, as I was a wreck. I couldn't tell lies from the truth, and truly a mess in the head. I have been going to AlAnon, doing the readings, etc. I have looked at my codependency issues, etc.

So here it is - August. EXAG hit rock bottom back on Easter Sunday. She has completed 60 days in-patient, and 60 days IOP. She is actively working her program. She has over 4 months sober, and is committed to her recovery. She just got a part time job within walking distance, and has managed to get a small consulting gig in her industry (working from home). She has also signed on to a small business at home. She is not looking to get back into the corporate world for awhile, as she is worried about the stress and the impact it may have on her recovery. She got her house rented, so that is now back into positive cashflow (she is living in an apartment). She is actively working with a nutritionist, to make sure she is keeping her physical body and mind healthy (this is a big step, as she has struggled with eating disorder since college). Her father is now being well taken care of (moving into assisted living), and she is mending her relationship with her daughters. Her legal issues are not over, but according to her attorney, her situation is not as dire as it could be (reduced charges).

How do I know all this? We spent some time together Tuesday night (SR Groans...) Since she "graduated" from IOP, we have spoken a few times. Since she promised her therapist and sponsor that she wouldn't speak with me until she completed IOP, she assumed it was OK. We went to a nice restaurant and a movie. It was like a very nice first date - no talk of future, some limited talk of recovery, minimal talk of the past, no sleeping together. We were both nervous at first, but we soon got more comfortable with each other, and settled into basically being in the moment, talking about what has been going on in our lives, etc. She looks and sounds great. From what I could see, I think I can change her label to EXRAG (As in Ex-RECOVERING Alcoholic girlfriend). We left the evening very happy with how things went. We've spoken a few times since, and have been exchanging nice texts, etc- missing each other, looking forward to next time we can see each other, etc.

So last night I got a call from her. Apparently she was in and out of tears all day- she discussed the date with her sponsor, who apparently read her the riot act. Her sponsor stated that EXRAG was now stuck in self will, and even made a comment about "is working on your relationship really worth going back to jail for?" So she basically ordered her to stop speaking with me. (I take it personally- even though EXRAG is assuring me it has nothing to do with ME, but ANY relationship)

I look at myself, and think that I have been doing things OK. I have not been enabling - I have done NOTHING to help her since she hit her bottom. I have been doing my best to keep "in my swim lane," (with the exception of WANTING to send her daughters some money for back-to-school shopping, and a few others).

And then I think, "Who gave her sponsor the right? So is there going to be some magical day that her sponsor says "OK, you are fixed. I now permit you to call him?" We had agreed to start spending some time together, but not rushing, etc. And we were both optimistic, and feeling good. Now EXRAG is hurting over the direction she is being given. She is putting all of her faith in her sponsor, and said that she doesn't like it, but needs to listen to her. Even though it is causing her emotional pain.

In Al-Anon meetings, there is always a woman that gives a small speech to any newcomers. The first thing she mentions is that "Al-Anon is not in the business of breaking up marriages, families and relationships." Why do I get the sense this is not being reciprocated?

Isn't support and empathy vital to anyone with a disease? Do doctors tell cancer patients to stay away from their families and loved ones during treatment? Can anyone help me see what I am missing?

Anna

I'm not an AA person, but it seems to me that everyone has free will and your wife can make the choices she chooses.

LexieCat

What you are missing is that there is a particular DYNAMIC between the two of you that does not appear (to me, and obviously to her sponsor) to be particularly healthy. I think the sponsor once made a remark, if I recall correctly, that your whatever-she-is g/f was essentially making YOU her "higher power."

She is still very newly sober. She looks a lot better on the outside but there is still a lot of work to do if she is going to stay well and continue to grow. Your relationship appears to interfere with that. I'm at a distance and going only by what YOU have posted, so it isn't like I am taking "sides" here without hearing your side of the story. And I think the same is true for you. I think your relationship with her gets in the way of your own recovery.

You asked for opinions/advice, and that's mine. Stop opening the oven door to see if the cake is done.

Jazzman

I dated M two years after we were divorced and she had about four months of sobriety. No judgement from me. Unfortunately she relapsed after several weeks and having dinner with me once a week didn't have anything to do with it. The only good news to that story was I stayed at a distance emotionally so it wasn't like getting my heart broken again.

My advice? Don't expect a different ending if you've seen this movie before.

Tuffgirl

Crazed - you already know my opinion.

Dinner & a movie - big deal. It's not like you two eloped or anything. And when is she allowed to put her newly forming skills to test anyway? Is there some arbitrary time frame she is being told to follow in regards to you? Let's see - she seems to be dealing with her family fine, making good decisions, healing relationships with her kids, and rebuilding her professional life.

4 months is doing good. Sure, we could all say its only 4 months. Or maybe instead we can say it is already 4 months.

I'm with Anna here, Crazed. Good luck.

Florence

If you care about her sobriety, you will give her the space she needs to recover.

This level of investment in a newly recovering alcoholic's life is codependent, selfish, and self-destructive.

Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

Hammer

Ok. No beating you up.

A little fun?

This is sort of like counting "bottles of beer on the wall."

Or since we have spent sometime around alkies -- empties on the floor.

Now the fun part . . . .

On whatever interwebs browser you may use, it likely has a "find" function. I am using google chrome and it is under the little triple equal bars in the upper right.

I put "she" in find box, and hit it for your post. Highlighted all over that thing. 27 times was my count. How about yours?

Not saying you seem a bit (meaning quite a bit) stuck on her -- but 27 times seems a bit . . .


Houston, we have a problem.

MrsDarcy

I don't have an opinion on how you should proceed but I think you should be aware that you only know what your ex chooses to let you know and see. Maybe consider the possibly that the sponser knows something you don't and isn't merely throwing her opinion around. Also, when people relate conversations to others they filter what they relate through their own perceptions-- they put their own spin on it. We all do this to some degree or another and it seems to me that people whose heads aren't in the best place do it more so. Just something to think about.

FireSprite

(Alright Crazed, you asked for it.)

So she's done a lot - but really, what have YOU done?

Reading here & going to Alanon are wonderful but that's not DOING. Staying in your own swim lane (as you put it) is more than just treading water to keep from drowning, you actually have to SWIM. Have you indulged in your hobbies, joined a group, met new people or resumed creating a life WITHOUT your ex instead of working AROUND her & her issues? Even here at SR your talk is mostly of her & her progress but never your own..... it's more than just not enabling, that alone isn't a successful recovery.

With all due respect, I don't understand why you even refer to her as your EX when it seems obvious (from the outside) that you aren't truly done, you're just in a holding pattern waiting for her to get her crap together so that you can consider/jump into a relationship again. Those are mighty expectations (read: disappointment) for you & a lot of pressure-filled triggers for her whether you realize it or not. My opinion comes from you saying things like "no sleeping together"... well, why on earth would that even be a consideration or something that needs clarification unless it's something that you hope to work up to in the future? I mean, you even REFER to it as a DATE! I believe YOU are the one waiting for that "Magical" day; not her, not her therapist, not her sponsor. You.

How are you MOVING FORWARD, not just standing still?

DreamsofSerenity

Crazed,

You already know my opinion too, but I will restate it for the others who don't:

Your GF (she is not an EX, let's be honest) was in SERIOUSLY bad shape. From what you described, as well as her family history, I would call it life or death bad shape. She is FINALLY sober. This is such a huge blessing for her, her children, and for you.

Why would you do anything that could possibly undermine her recovery? Why, when the general guidelines of recovery are no relationships for one year, would you not wait one year? Why, when her sponsor who is more experienced and wise in these matters recommends you stay apart, would you not follow her advice? If you could answer these questions and explain what is going through your head, maybe I'd understand your situation better. Is it that you don't trust the AA people?

I'm constantly on your a$$, Crazed. I'm sorry. I just feel like you might be sabotaging something that could possibly work in the future. Also, I worry about your gf. If you posted tomorrow that she relapsed, I'd be really sad. So, please know this is all coming from a caring (and perhaps codie) place.

HUGS

dandylion

Crazed, I haven't been in your exact position with a romantic relationship. I have witnessed others, though and I have the experience of the difficulties of early recovery with my own alcoholics (ugh!). I will just share a couple of my thoughts on the subject with you.

If there is a solid basis for your relationship---it will be there down the line---when she (and you) have your "sea legs" in stronger condition.

Relationships don't stay conflict free---however sweet the dinner movie, etc. seems, in itself. When any strong emotions hit the recovering alcoholic, positive or negative, that can be a trigger for the person who has not gotten used to handling difficult emotions without running to the bottle--like moth to flame. I have experienced this, in spades with my own alcoholics.

Relationships take a lot of time and psychic energy and they are fun! It is so easy to turn focus from the, sometimes, difficult work of recovery to the more pleasurable arena of the relationship. Like going dancing rather than doing research on your thesis. It is human nature. She can't afford to let her recovery work slide at this vulnerable stage.

People often compare alcohollism to cancer or diabetes. They are not the same. They are not.

I understand the biologic and psychic drive to be with a mate---I really, really do! I do not want to minimize the natural and healthy desire along these lines. But, we humans do have a rather advanced frontal lobe---and, the ability, when it is is adaptive, to overide our biologic side in favor of actions that ensure our longer term success. Delayed gratification when it is expedient.

It think it is less a matter of who has a right to tell whom what---than what will work out best for both parties in the long run.

The word sabbatical keeps coming to my mind.

There is nothing that is actually written on stone tablets, anywhere--as you pointed out. I think that people are going from decades of emperical and statistical experience.

Crazed, this is just a collection of some of my thoughts on the subject.

sincerely,
dandylion

DreamsofSerenity

Crazed,

I had another thought. Ask yourself this question: Would you rather have her sober and out of your life forever, or drinking and in your life? What if those were the two only possible scenarios? Which one would you honestly choose?

No judgment either way but here's the thing: until you are truly to the point of being able to honestly choose the first option, there is probably not a lot of hope for the future of your relationship.

If you are not to that point, there is nothing wrong with it. It just means you have work to do on yourself still to get there.

CentralOhioDad

I'm going with what Hammer and FireSprite wrote.

Dude - just let go and let you be you, without constantly holding on to her every move/mood/action.

Let her recover, let YOU recover, let yourself see aht life can be like withOUT her in any part of it. Methinks you might actually like it.

C-OH Dad

Crazed

Thanks All-

Perhaps the big point that I did not make:
1) Sponsor wants her to complete the steps. She is only on step 4. Honestly, I think this is GOOD, but I just don't understand why I can't be in her life (even if not front and center) when she is going through it.

Lexie- Doesn't this imply that I "cause" her sickness? And by removing me, you remove her sickness? Isn't this contrary to what is taught in AlAnon (and by inference what is taught in AA?). I find it difficult for her sponsor to "judge" me- we've spoken on the phone I think 3 times. She doesn't know me at all. She has not once witnessed EXRAG and I interact.

Hammer- It is hard to relay the current situation without using the words "her or she." She is making very positive changes in her life. I am not sure what major changes I NEED to make- my life is not falling apart. I am not acting in my codependent ways that I was 8 months ago. I am not riddled with depression, etc. I can write about what I did at work yesterday, or what I had for breakfast this morning, but that is not what I am looking for support for.

Fire- I have been using the word EXAG, but you are correct. There are still feelings on both parts.

Dreams - I would never want to undermine her recovery. I just have a hard time grasping of how I would... Her disease started a decade before I met her. I have bought into the three C's, hook line and sinker. Regarding your question, if those are the only 2 choices, I would rather have her sober and out of my life forever. If she drinks again, she will be either dead or in jail. This is also her observation.

Dandy - Regarding people often comparing alcohollism to cancer or diabetes- Just when I buy in to Alcoholism as a Disease (vs. choice). Yet we don't treat it like any other disease?

I seriously appreciate all of the honest advice I get here.... even if sometimes I don't take it. But the default answer always seems to be about ME. I feel like I am doing OK- excelling in work, my house is in order, family and friend relationships are good, active in my hobbies... But I miss her. And now that her life doesn't appear to be such a cluster, and she is making responsible choices and taking care of herself, I miss her even more. At what time does the conversation actually become about US vs ME? Or is the general consensus that relationships with alcoholics (either active or recovering) are just impossible and the thought of it should be dismissed no matter what?

So yes, I guess I am waiting a bit. ... Its not like the single ladies in their mid 40s with are banging down my doors

Crazed

Also- It is often difficult to read emotions through text. I am not upset by any of your responses, and thank you all for taking the time. And I hope I don't upset any of you all with my responses.

Except for Hammer.

(Just kidding bud)

Crazed

Thanks C-OH dad.

CentralOhioDad

People don't drive to the local convenience store and buy pancreatic cancer.

Tuffgirl

Here's what I don't get in regards to this situation, and I am not singling you out, Dreams, just commenting on the sentence above.

Why does it have to be viewed as only one or the other?

There are many posters here on our forum - some who have posted on this very thread, who continue their relationships regardless of recovery or not.

I stayed with my now ex for 18 months of sobriety. Sure, I moved out and put a lot of space between us, because it was really a continued ugly time in regards to his behavior and I needed to put myself and my kids first. But I stayed. It didn't work out in the end, but the point is, I stayed and I know I didn't interfere with his recovery, because his recovery belongs to him. He is a grown man, he can determine what is right and wrong and what works and what doesn't. He has free will to make his own choices.

With all due respect, I'd be asking the same thing if his sponsor at that time was DEMANDING he stay away from me. Making him anxious about it. Instead, his sponsor said do whatever you want and need, but remember to put your sobriety first and foremost. Work your steps, go to meetings. And his sponsor put that onus on HIM, not on me.

Personally, I think this particular sponsor is going overboard with the demands, especially since we are talking a 10 year+ relationship here. I think Crazed'd GF is perfectly capable of making her own decisions about her own relationships, and yes, my ex's sponsor told him he had "made me his higher power", but it was up to him to knock that crap off and get real. To me, that's the difference here. And I also believe that a sponsor is a guider, not a controller. And that sponsors are alcoholics too. And people. Just because a sponsor says something doesn't make it right, true, or necessarily required. Same with therapists, or any other "expert". I believe in thinking for myself, taking others' "guidance" into consideration.

The concept of no relationships the first year - in my experience - really applies to new relationships, not existing ones. If it were about ANY and ALL relationships, this forum would be full of completely different threads!!!

There is nothing wrong with Crazed waiting. Hell, many of the posters here are doing JUST THAT right now. So what if he still loves her? Why is there something wrong with that? I waited for 18 months!! How long have you all been waiting, really?

TWWALTR,
~T

m1k3

Dude, I know what your going through, been there, done that. What really helped me was going no contact as much as possible and focusing on myself. When I looked at reality as it was, not as how I wanted it to be, it was obvious I was in no condition to start a relationship with anyone.

Your friend,

LexieCat

No, I am not in any way implying, nor do I think her sponsor is, that you are in any way responsible for her sickness. But it is definitely possible to be a roadblock on someone's road to recovery. And with all good intentions.

There is a lot of DEPENDENCE the two of you have had on each other. That dependence means that she is more likely to try to please you at the expense of doing what she needs to be doing. Relationships--even good ones--are a huge distraction. Yours has been fraught with drama for years now.

It's a matter of getting on really good solid ground before one starts taking on challenges that one has historically not coped with in a healthy way. I've often said here that coping with emotions, sober, was the biggest challenge for me in early sobriety. It would have been much, much harder for me if I was in a relationship with someone else--especially with someone who seemed to have so much riding on my success or failure. It was much easier for me to learn to deal when I knew I wouldn't have someone asking me, "What's wrong? Are you OK? Are you going to a meeting tonight? You missed a couple last week--are you sure everything's good?" And even if those questions aren't voiced, I would have heard them in my head, anyway.

I think YOU are the one putting her in conflict with her sponsor. If you just told her, "Hey, I care about you, maybe we can think about trying to make this work out, but I want us to have some space for the next several months," you would be taking a lot of the pressure off her. I suspect that even if you aren't saying it in so many words, you are reinforcing the notion that your relationship is none of her sponsor's business.

Sponsors don't run our lives, but the whole reason we have them is because they know more than we do about how to get sober and stay that way. When we ignore their suggestions, we can wind up shooting ourselves in the foot. Our own best thinking got us where we were, and we have to learn a whole new way of thinking and living.