Frustrated - Seeking helpful advice
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 431
I didn't read all the responses but to me the bottom line would be that it's your EXAG's choice in the end. Sure a sponsor can give advice etc but it's up to her what to do with it or not - she is an adult with free will so the decision and her actions are hers. For me that would mean my role in it would be to choose to accept her decision or not and likewise the consequences of accepting that decision or not on my life and my emotions. If she is going to be in AA and you want to wait that's your decision but you will have to take everything that comes with the decision - a large chance of relapse (only 1 in 10 achieve long term recovery), a dedication to the AA program and all that comes with it, and all the lows of trying to achieve emotional sobriety she hasn't even gotten close to yet most likely (I've heard that takes a year or more or a lifetime).
I've been separated from my husband since a year ago april (so April 2012)...a few months ago I met a recovered alcoholic....long term recovered. I was attracted to him but nervous about giving him a chance....finally I decided to give him a chance. Once I did after a couple dates his sponsor told him me, an Alanon, was not a healthy choice for him and he should wait 6 months and then see if he still wanted to be with me. I decided no way was I *EVER* going to put my life on hold for an alcoholic again (recovered or otherwise) so I told him that and let him go. That was my choice, but his decision was his not his sponsor's, my only role in the whole thing was to decide how I was going to react and what was healthy for me.
Just my experience.
I've been separated from my husband since a year ago april (so April 2012)...a few months ago I met a recovered alcoholic....long term recovered. I was attracted to him but nervous about giving him a chance....finally I decided to give him a chance. Once I did after a couple dates his sponsor told him me, an Alanon, was not a healthy choice for him and he should wait 6 months and then see if he still wanted to be with me. I decided no way was I *EVER* going to put my life on hold for an alcoholic again (recovered or otherwise) so I told him that and let him go. That was my choice, but his decision was his not his sponsor's, my only role in the whole thing was to decide how I was going to react and what was healthy for me.
Just my experience.
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,884
He is asking this forum if he is misunderstanding what is going on here. That's all.
IMO What he is missing is he needs to let her be to work her recovery.
IMO What he is missing is as long as he is focused on her recovery and her working the steps his recovery is going nowhere.
It was right about the same time frame in my separation from my AW that I felt strong in my recovery and tried dating her again. Bad Mistake! I ended up messing up my recovery, losing focus on myself and just generally down and depressed again.
The hooks of a long term relationship are in there deep, take a long time to remove and leave horrible scars. In my case I needed a lot of time to get them out and after 2 and 1/2 years I'm still not sure they are all out.
Your friend,
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 458
IMO What he is missing is he needs to let her be to work her recovery.
The consequences of her drinking have added so many new levels of stress to her life that absolutely tower in comparison to any of the stresses of our relationship (of 13 years).
What I thought I was learning on SR is that each person's recovery is their own journey. And throughout this thread the underlying theme seems to be how my recovery is so wrong. I am much happier today than I was in January- isn't that the end goal?
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Midwest, USA
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And throughout this thread the underlying theme seems to be how my recovery is so wrong. I am much happier today than I was in January- isn't that the end goal?
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Location: Central O-H-I-O
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Originally Posted by Crazed 
What I thought I was learning on SR is that each person's recovery is their own journey. And throughout this thread the underlying theme seems to be how my recovery is so wrong. I am much happier today than I was in January- isn't that the end goal?
That being said, you are still in 'fix-it- mode with her (aka - Codie behavior). You want to be there, support her, help her, etc., etc. I understand that, and in the past I would have probably said "go full-steam ahead". But, through this forum I've learned that the focus has to be OFF the alkie, and not ON the alkie - and that's the part I don't think you've quite gotten to, yet.
Much of your happiness, I think, is still tied to what she's doing and how's she's doing it - and that is where your plan for recovery derails. You have taken great strides, but even though you didn't verbally talk about the future on your date -wasn't it a primary thought in the back of your head?
You have never REALLY taken a break from her, even when she was in rehab, I remember you saying so.
You're an engineer, I'm an IT guy - we need and want logic. But even stubborn ol' me has come to realize there ain't no logic is this thing called alcoholism. And we have to let people be what they need to be, and she needs time to learn how to live soberly, and you need to learn how to live without any of her presence in your life - at least for awhile until you both settle into who you really are.
I feel for you man, I really do. But I think you have some ways to go, as I do too, in your own PERSONAL growth and recovery.
Best of Luck to you,
C-OH Dad
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Crazed, you asked for our opinions and advice. We aren't handing you cookie-cutter wisdom here.
In the end, you will do what you decide to do, regardless of what we, her sponsor, or anyone else says. What I'm seeing is that you pick out things that are said on the forum that seem to support what you want to do, and to reject or argue with those things that seem hard or counterintuitive to you.
People in recovery--alcoholics or FFAs--make progress when they are willing to try something different. Not doing the same kinds of things that they have always done in the past with the same predictable result.
Alcoholics who are newly sober cannot imagine how doing x, y, or z is going to help them. But if they listen to those people who have DONE x, y, and z, noticing that those people seem to have some pretty good sobriety going on, even if they don't understand why it should work that way, they tend to make progress. FFAs are no different in that respect. If detachment came easily or naturally or intuitively, we wouldn't have to work at it. Everything would be just fine as soon as the alcoholic got sober.
I don't know how to explain it any better than that. It seems to me that you are scared to death what will happen if you loosen your grip on her. And you keep denying that you are doing that, but seem to be completely unwilling to let her stand on her own two feet and figure stuff out on her own.
I agree with dandylion, that a big part of it is fear that she won't need you anymore. Maybe it might be interesting to see what it's like to be WANTED, rather than NEEDED.
In the end, you will do what you decide to do, regardless of what we, her sponsor, or anyone else says. What I'm seeing is that you pick out things that are said on the forum that seem to support what you want to do, and to reject or argue with those things that seem hard or counterintuitive to you.
People in recovery--alcoholics or FFAs--make progress when they are willing to try something different. Not doing the same kinds of things that they have always done in the past with the same predictable result.
Alcoholics who are newly sober cannot imagine how doing x, y, or z is going to help them. But if they listen to those people who have DONE x, y, and z, noticing that those people seem to have some pretty good sobriety going on, even if they don't understand why it should work that way, they tend to make progress. FFAs are no different in that respect. If detachment came easily or naturally or intuitively, we wouldn't have to work at it. Everything would be just fine as soon as the alcoholic got sober.
I don't know how to explain it any better than that. It seems to me that you are scared to death what will happen if you loosen your grip on her. And you keep denying that you are doing that, but seem to be completely unwilling to let her stand on her own two feet and figure stuff out on her own.
I agree with dandylion, that a big part of it is fear that she won't need you anymore. Maybe it might be interesting to see what it's like to be WANTED, rather than NEEDED.
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Join Date: May 2011
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Originally Posted by Crazed
What I thought I was learning on SR is that each person's recovery is their own journey. And throughout this thread the underlying theme seems to be how my recovery is so wrong. I am much happier today than I was in January- isn't that the end goal?
To expand the goal a littler more it is not only go get happier but to get yourself to a place where that is your default setting. To be able to look at the things happening in your life, see them as they are and not how you want them to be and then respond in a skillful manner.
To create that gap between the stimulus and the response so that the response is an intentional choice rather than flying on autopilot and doing the same old thing over and over again and to be able to let go and detach when it is the right thing to do.
I hope this helps.
Your friend,
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Originally Posted by m1k3
In my case I needed a lot of time to get them out and after 2 and 1/2 years I'm still not sure they are all out.
My concern here, and the points I am continuing to try to convey, is actually very simple.
There are a lot of posts here telling the OP what he SHOULD be doing. And in many previous threads, there are many posts telling him what he SHOULD be doing. As a matter of fact, it has become "tell Crazed what he SHOULD be doing" around here lately.
And he notices, because he references this in his first paragraph on this thread. It defeats the purpose of this forum, a bunch of codies running around telling others what they SHOULD be doing, like we are all the experts in life. Someone please call the codie police!
What we can do is offer our own experiences, not point out where we think he is doing wrong. Isn't that akin to taking his inventory?
We can offer our strength - as we all know what it is like to go through this, in general. We know what broken hearts and dashed dreams feel like. We know the crazy hope of early recovery. We remember the days when we weren't so damn cynical about alcoholism.
And we can offer our hope - that maybe this relationship has a future, as we wished ours did too. Maybe it doesn't, who knows?
Lastly, we can offer encouragement and some positive remarks about the OP. Because I remember when he first came here he was a trainwreck (no offense, Crazed). 8 months later, and a lot of introspection, and Al-Anon, and reading and posting here, so what if he still sees and talks to his girlfriend/ex/whatever? I personally think he has come a long way, and I remember being called out back in the day myself when I would ask for advice on certain situations regarding my now ex husband and early recovery and being told to "stay on my side of the street" and "focus on my own recovery" and all I wanted was someone to say - yes this is normal - or no this is totally weird. I didn't need people jumping on me because I was asking a question about him. It didn't help me at all back then.
You've come along way Crazed. Good job. As with everything else, more will be revealed.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 458
TG- Thanks for the compassion. While I may not be doing all that great with "Let Go and Let God," I am pretty good with the "Take what you want and leave the rest"
Everyone have a great weekend- no hard feelings here.
Everyone have a great weekend- no hard feelings here.
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 340
So yes, I guess I am waiting a bit. ... Its not like the single ladies in their mid 40s with are banging down my doors
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You've come along way Crazed. Good job. As with everything else, more will be revealed.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Here's something else that just occurred to me. And what made it click was C-O-D's observation that much of your happiness seems tied to how she's doing.
Yes, she is doing well now--and you are rightly proud of her and happy about that. It's awesome. But the thing is, how would you feel if she relapses again? Not in the sense that it would be your fault in any way, or that you would have anything to do with it. But what would happen to YOU if she relapses? Would your happiness continue? And I'm not talking about the sadness and disappointment and distress that any one of us would feel if our partner/friend/ex-that-we-still-care-deeply-about (hm, perhaps a new acronym is in order, xtiscdaagf) relapsed. I'm talking about how you would cope. Would you be running around again in panic mode, desperately trying to help her? Or would you be sad and disappointed and worried, but confident that you would be OK no matter what?
THAT is the goal of our recovery, I think. To be OK, no matter what happens to our loved ones. To be happy, whole people unto ourselves.
Just another thought that might help, or maybe not. Take it for what it's worth.
Yes, she is doing well now--and you are rightly proud of her and happy about that. It's awesome. But the thing is, how would you feel if she relapses again? Not in the sense that it would be your fault in any way, or that you would have anything to do with it. But what would happen to YOU if she relapses? Would your happiness continue? And I'm not talking about the sadness and disappointment and distress that any one of us would feel if our partner/friend/ex-that-we-still-care-deeply-about (hm, perhaps a new acronym is in order, xtiscdaagf) relapsed. I'm talking about how you would cope. Would you be running around again in panic mode, desperately trying to help her? Or would you be sad and disappointed and worried, but confident that you would be OK no matter what?
THAT is the goal of our recovery, I think. To be OK, no matter what happens to our loved ones. To be happy, whole people unto ourselves.
Just another thought that might help, or maybe not. Take it for what it's worth.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Crazed, I have one more morsel of food for your thought. IF you happen to be a helicoptering or overly protective, or controlling type---or any version of the parent-child relationship---and, your girlfriend gets well and no longer wants or needs to be in this type of relationship---she will leave. Harsh--I know. I have seen this happen. The controlling type is usually the one left in a state of confusion and broken hearted. 
In a relationship that is toxic to the members---if one grows or changes, and the other one doesn't--the relationship collapses. I experienced this in my first marriage to my children's father. He still hasn't changed and doesn't have one bit of insight all these years later. (he isn't an engineer either--he is a geographer).
I am not telling you what to do; I am just giving you food for your thoughts.
dandylion
In a relationship that is toxic to the members---if one grows or changes, and the other one doesn't--the relationship collapses. I experienced this in my first marriage to my children's father. He still hasn't changed and doesn't have one bit of insight all these years later. (he isn't an engineer either--he is a geographer).
I am not telling you what to do; I am just giving you food for your thoughts.
dandylion
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THAT is the goal of our recovery, I think. To be OK, no matter what happens to our loved ones. To be happy, whole people unto ourselves.
I've gotten to the point where I am happy. At peace. Joyful. At the same time, I am feeling compassion and sadness for AXH for continuing the downhill journey of untreated alcoholism.
But the sadness I'm feeling for him does not rule my world. I am sad for his demise the same way I'd be sad for... other bad things in the world that are sad and heartbreaking but that I don't take upon myself to try to fix -- tornado damage, the economy, etc.
And I can see that this means I've moved forward in my recovery. Not arrived, but moved forward.
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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To (inadequately) paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinas, love is willing the good of the other. It is an act of the will. But willing the good of the other is half of the story, acting concretely for the good of the other is the rest.
How do we know what is for the good of the other? That is a difficult question to answer because our own emotions will occasionally lead us astray. Sometimes, it means letting someone go. Letting them go so that they can devote all their time and energy and efforts toward becoming the best, healthiest person they can be. Letting someone we love go can be so very painful. But if it is in the best interest of the other, then that is truly expressing love as willing the good of the other. Letting someone go also does not have to mean that the person will never be a significant part of our life again.
I do not judge you, Crazed, or any of your questions or actions. We do all have our own path to take, our own lessons to learn. I hope that you and this woman that you love can ultimately do what is best for one another....even if that means not seeing each other regularly for a time. I wish you all the best.
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Ladies and gentlemen, if you feel yourself getting angry or annoyed or aggravated by this thread, please take a break and step away from the keyboard. Sarcasm, condescension, and derision do not motivate anyone nor are they respectful to the original poster. After a full review of this thread, some posts may be removed under Rule 4:
How do we know what is for the good of the other? That is a difficult question to answer because our own emotions will occasionally lead us astray. Sometimes, it means letting someone go. Letting them go so that they can devote all their time and energy and efforts toward becoming the best, healthiest person they can be. Letting someone we love go can be so very painful. But if it is in the best interest of the other, then that is truly expressing love as willing the good of the other. Letting someone go also does not have to mean that the person will never be a significant part of our life again.
I do not judge you, Crazed, or any of your questions or actions. We do all have our own path to take, our own lessons to learn. I hope that you and this woman that you love can ultimately do what is best for one another....even if that means not seeing each other regularly for a time. I wish you all the best.
____________________
Ladies and gentlemen, if you feel yourself getting angry or annoyed or aggravated by this thread, please take a break and step away from the keyboard. Sarcasm, condescension, and derision do not motivate anyone nor are they respectful to the original poster. After a full review of this thread, some posts may be removed under Rule 4:
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No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun of, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and recovery are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.
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My understanding is that a person needs to be happy within themselves and not rely on others' moods to determine their own. So with that being said, IMHO, I think what you are missing is that your happiness/sadness is still connected with how she is doing and what she is doing.
I think what everyone is saying that we (codies) have to learn to evaluate ourselves and not depend on someone else to make us happy or sad and not feel like we have to be in charge of making someone else happy or sad.
We are so comfortable with guilt! And we try to see how we can "help"!
As much of a cliche as it is, we have to learn live and let live.
Thank you for this thread - it is helping me see the light. Wishing you the best Crazed!
I think what everyone is saying that we (codies) have to learn to evaluate ourselves and not depend on someone else to make us happy or sad and not feel like we have to be in charge of making someone else happy or sad.
We are so comfortable with guilt! And we try to see how we can "help"!
As much of a cliche as it is, we have to learn live and let live.
Thank you for this thread - it is helping me see the light. Wishing you the best Crazed!
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 340
Originally Posted by unhappyspouse
My understanding is that a person needs to be happy within themselves and not rely on others' moods to determine their own. So with that being said, IMHO, I think what you are missing is that your happiness/sadness is still connected with how she is doing and what she is doing.
I think what everyone is saying that we (codies) have to learn to evaluate ourselves and not depend on someone else to make us happy or sad and not feel like we have to be in charge of making someone else happy or sad.
We are so comfortable with guilt! And we try to see how we can "help"!
As much of a cliche as it is, we have to learn live and let live.
Thank you for this thread - it is helping me see the light. Wishing you the best Crazed!
I think what everyone is saying that we (codies) have to learn to evaluate ourselves and not depend on someone else to make us happy or sad and not feel like we have to be in charge of making someone else happy or sad.
We are so comfortable with guilt! And we try to see how we can "help"!
As much of a cliche as it is, we have to learn live and let live.
Thank you for this thread - it is helping me see the light. Wishing you the best Crazed!
A little bit off topic Crazed =P, I wasn't on a date with that 47 year old, just out as friends. If you are looking to meet some new friends a website called meetup.com may be a good resource.
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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From the sponsors point of view it,s no relationships in the first year whether you were together for 13 years before that or not.
Don,t they say that in Alanon too if you,ve left a bad relationship no relationships in the first year?
Its, to give her time to get strong and on her feet nothing against you.
Don,t they say that in Alanon too if you,ve left a bad relationship no relationships in the first year?
Its, to give her time to get strong and on her feet nothing against you.
Originally Posted by Crazed
Not signing on for a beating here, but here goes-
Back in January I came to this forum for support, as I was a wreck. I couldn't tell lies from the truth, and truly a mess in the head. I have been going to AlAnon, doing the readings, etc. I have looked at my codependency issues, etc.
So here it is - August. EXAG hit rock bottom back on Easter Sunday. She has completed 60 days in-patient, and 60 days IOP. She is actively working her program. She has over 4 months sober, and is committed to her recovery. She just got a part time job within walking distance, and has managed to get a small consulting gig in her industry (working from home). She has also signed on to a small business at home. She is not looking to get back into the corporate world for awhile, as she is worried about the stress and the impact it may have on her recovery. She got her house rented, so that is now back into positive cashflow (she is living in an apartment). She is actively working with a nutritionist, to make sure she is keeping her physical body and mind healthy (this is a big step, as she has struggled with eating disorder since college). Her father is now being well taken care of (moving into assisted living), and she is mending her relationship with her daughters. Her legal issues are not over, but according to her attorney, her situation is not as dire as it could be (reduced charges).
How do I know all this? We spent some time together Tuesday night (SR Groans...) Since she "graduated" from IOP, we have spoken a few times. Since she promised her therapist and sponsor that she wouldn't speak with me until she completed IOP, she assumed it was OK. We went to a nice restaurant and a movie. It was like a very nice first date - no talk of future, some limited talk of recovery, minimal talk of the past, no sleeping together. We were both nervous at first, but we soon got more comfortable with each other, and settled into basically being in the moment, talking about what has been going on in our lives, etc. She looks and sounds great. From what I could see, I think I can change her label to EXRAG (As in Ex-RECOVERING Alcoholic girlfriend). We left the evening very happy with how things went. We've spoken a few times since, and have been exchanging nice texts, etc- missing each other, looking forward to next time we can see each other, etc.
So last night I got a call from her. Apparently she was in and out of tears all day- she discussed the date with her sponsor, who apparently read her the riot act. Her sponsor stated that EXRAG was now stuck in self will, and even made a comment about "is working on your relationship really worth going back to jail for?" So she basically ordered her to stop speaking with me. (I take it personally- even though EXRAG is assuring me it has nothing to do with ME, but ANY relationship)
I look at myself, and think that I have been doing things OK. I have not been enabling - I have done NOTHING to help her since she hit her bottom. I have been doing my best to keep "in my swim lane," (with the exception of WANTING to send her daughters some money for back-to-school shopping, and a few others).
And then I think, "Who gave her sponsor the right? So is there going to be some magical day that her sponsor says "OK, you are fixed. I now permit you to call him?" We had agreed to start spending some time together, but not rushing, etc. And we were both optimistic, and feeling good. Now EXRAG is hurting over the direction she is being given. She is putting all of her faith in her sponsor, and said that she doesn't like it, but needs to listen to her. Even though it is causing her emotional pain.
In Al-Anon meetings, there is always a woman that gives a small speech to any newcomers. The first thing she mentions is that "Al-Anon is not in the business of breaking up marriages, families and relationships." Why do I get the sense this is not being reciprocated?
Isn't support and empathy vital to anyone with a disease? Do doctors tell cancer patients to stay away from their families and loved ones during treatment? Can anyone help me see what I am missing?
Back in January I came to this forum for support, as I was a wreck. I couldn't tell lies from the truth, and truly a mess in the head. I have been going to AlAnon, doing the readings, etc. I have looked at my codependency issues, etc.
So here it is - August. EXAG hit rock bottom back on Easter Sunday. She has completed 60 days in-patient, and 60 days IOP. She is actively working her program. She has over 4 months sober, and is committed to her recovery. She just got a part time job within walking distance, and has managed to get a small consulting gig in her industry (working from home). She has also signed on to a small business at home. She is not looking to get back into the corporate world for awhile, as she is worried about the stress and the impact it may have on her recovery. She got her house rented, so that is now back into positive cashflow (she is living in an apartment). She is actively working with a nutritionist, to make sure she is keeping her physical body and mind healthy (this is a big step, as she has struggled with eating disorder since college). Her father is now being well taken care of (moving into assisted living), and she is mending her relationship with her daughters. Her legal issues are not over, but according to her attorney, her situation is not as dire as it could be (reduced charges).
How do I know all this? We spent some time together Tuesday night (SR Groans...) Since she "graduated" from IOP, we have spoken a few times. Since she promised her therapist and sponsor that she wouldn't speak with me until she completed IOP, she assumed it was OK. We went to a nice restaurant and a movie. It was like a very nice first date - no talk of future, some limited talk of recovery, minimal talk of the past, no sleeping together. We were both nervous at first, but we soon got more comfortable with each other, and settled into basically being in the moment, talking about what has been going on in our lives, etc. She looks and sounds great. From what I could see, I think I can change her label to EXRAG (As in Ex-RECOVERING Alcoholic girlfriend). We left the evening very happy with how things went. We've spoken a few times since, and have been exchanging nice texts, etc- missing each other, looking forward to next time we can see each other, etc.
So last night I got a call from her. Apparently she was in and out of tears all day- she discussed the date with her sponsor, who apparently read her the riot act. Her sponsor stated that EXRAG was now stuck in self will, and even made a comment about "is working on your relationship really worth going back to jail for?" So she basically ordered her to stop speaking with me. (I take it personally- even though EXRAG is assuring me it has nothing to do with ME, but ANY relationship)
I look at myself, and think that I have been doing things OK. I have not been enabling - I have done NOTHING to help her since she hit her bottom. I have been doing my best to keep "in my swim lane," (with the exception of WANTING to send her daughters some money for back-to-school shopping, and a few others).
And then I think, "Who gave her sponsor the right? So is there going to be some magical day that her sponsor says "OK, you are fixed. I now permit you to call him?" We had agreed to start spending some time together, but not rushing, etc. And we were both optimistic, and feeling good. Now EXRAG is hurting over the direction she is being given. She is putting all of her faith in her sponsor, and said that she doesn't like it, but needs to listen to her. Even though it is causing her emotional pain.
In Al-Anon meetings, there is always a woman that gives a small speech to any newcomers. The first thing she mentions is that "Al-Anon is not in the business of breaking up marriages, families and relationships." Why do I get the sense this is not being reciprocated?
Isn't support and empathy vital to anyone with a disease? Do doctors tell cancer patients to stay away from their families and loved ones during treatment? Can anyone help me see what I am missing?
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