One of those threads I'm hesitant to start
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One of those threads I'm hesitant to start
I'm divorced, detached, settled in a new non-alcoholic life, and working on my recovery while also walking three children through the loss of their family and, in effect, their father. I've gotten far enough away that I am starting to dare touch this, if only with a ten-foot pole.
One thing that I'm... I wouldn't say struggling with because I'm not struggling, I'm avoiding... is the compassion/pity/grief for AXH.
I no longer feel responsible for him. I no longer feel like he is part of my life if that makes sense? I see him as a person somewhere out there with other people I've known throughout my life. I don't want him an inch closer to me. But I still avoid handling the fact that, on some level, I am quite heartbroken by seeing the man I once loved, the father of my children, disintegrate. It is, in a manner of speaking, like seeing a former Olympic champion sprinter who has lost his ability to walk.
I'm not in danger of being sucked back in. I'm not in danger of taking responsibility for his choices. I accept that he is an adult making his own decisions (alcohol-addled as they are). It's not the C-C-C stuff.
It's grief. Not over a lost relationship and lost dreams and a lost nuclear family and all that jazz -- that's there too but I think I've gotten over that. It's more the excruciating tragedy of a person disintegrating by choice. I know it's his choice to be self-destructive (and I think he is; even beyond alcoholism) -- but there's some kind of tragedy there that is not romantic or pretty or epic but simply ugly and painful and with no redeeming qualities.
I don't know if there's a question here. If there is, it may be "how do you grieve a person who is still alive?" or possibly "how do you grieve a person who, given the opportunity, would gladly kill you with his own two hands?". Yeah, I think that's it. How do you grieve a person who... isn't that person anymore? Or something along those lines. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
One thing that I'm... I wouldn't say struggling with because I'm not struggling, I'm avoiding... is the compassion/pity/grief for AXH.
I no longer feel responsible for him. I no longer feel like he is part of my life if that makes sense? I see him as a person somewhere out there with other people I've known throughout my life. I don't want him an inch closer to me. But I still avoid handling the fact that, on some level, I am quite heartbroken by seeing the man I once loved, the father of my children, disintegrate. It is, in a manner of speaking, like seeing a former Olympic champion sprinter who has lost his ability to walk.
I'm not in danger of being sucked back in. I'm not in danger of taking responsibility for his choices. I accept that he is an adult making his own decisions (alcohol-addled as they are). It's not the C-C-C stuff.
It's grief. Not over a lost relationship and lost dreams and a lost nuclear family and all that jazz -- that's there too but I think I've gotten over that. It's more the excruciating tragedy of a person disintegrating by choice. I know it's his choice to be self-destructive (and I think he is; even beyond alcoholism) -- but there's some kind of tragedy there that is not romantic or pretty or epic but simply ugly and painful and with no redeeming qualities.
I don't know if there's a question here. If there is, it may be "how do you grieve a person who is still alive?" or possibly "how do you grieve a person who, given the opportunity, would gladly kill you with his own two hands?". Yeah, I think that's it. How do you grieve a person who... isn't that person anymore? Or something along those lines. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Yup, know exactly what you are talking about. I was lucky--no kids so I could completely avoid any contact or news about him. I actually DID think of him as dead. And I grieved him that way. I didn't have to keep ripping the scab off by interacting with him for any reason.
I'm pretty well over it. If I got news that he died, it would be like a note that got lost in the mail for fifteen years.
I'm pretty well over it. If I got news that he died, it would be like a note that got lost in the mail for fifteen years.
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Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,450
I have some experience with this but in a different sense. My father had a terrible stroke about ten years before he actually passed about three and half years ago. When I saw or spoke to him, sometimes he remembered me and sometimes he didn't. Sometimes it was clear that he knew he was supposed to remember me -- on those occasions I always felt like my presence brought more pain than anything else.
When my brother told me he had passed, I realized that I had been grieving his loss for a decade already. His actual passing was in some sense a relief. I felt a loneliness lift from me that had been with me since that first stroke. I still miss him, and I still struggle with a lot of issues about my dad, who was a classic codie to my A Mom, but I definitely think I know what you're talking about.
Hugs.
When my brother told me he had passed, I realized that I had been grieving his loss for a decade already. His actual passing was in some sense a relief. I felt a loneliness lift from me that had been with me since that first stroke. I still miss him, and I still struggle with a lot of issues about my dad, who was a classic codie to my A Mom, but I definitely think I know what you're talking about.
Hugs.
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lillamy, I understand---I think many of us here have faced the same ugly, bitter reality.
In my own experience, the grief will come in waves that suck the very air out of you when they hit. Like layers of an onion. Over a long time, they become smaller and smaller--until there is, finally a calm acceptance. My advice is to go to the "wailing wall" when the wave hits and let all of the pain roll out. I don't know of anything else that brings relief from the very intensity of it.
lilliamy, you will get through this, also. It won;t feel like this forever.
dandylion
In my own experience, the grief will come in waves that suck the very air out of you when they hit. Like layers of an onion. Over a long time, they become smaller and smaller--until there is, finally a calm acceptance. My advice is to go to the "wailing wall" when the wave hits and let all of the pain roll out. I don't know of anything else that brings relief from the very intensity of it.
lilliamy, you will get through this, also. It won;t feel like this forever.
dandylion
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I don't have a lot to offer in this situation but, what I can say, is you're not necessarily grieving ther person, you're grieving their lost potential and missed opportunities. I think that's harder than grieving a death IMHO. I read on another post about someone that wrote various frustrations about their ended marriage on a rock and took a hike with all the rocks in their backpack. Then read and then tossed each one as far as they could. Hiking back down without all those rocks in their pack. Seemed like they gained a ton of closure from that process. So maybe something similar will work for you?
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Posts: 13,497
Lillamy,
I can understand I think, what you are saying. He is almost like someone with dementia, who used to be nice, but now would kill you with his bare hands. It would be a very hard thing to grieve someone like that.
Perhaps just keep in mind that it is a disease, and he could not fight it, and it burned up his brain. That is sad. You are allowed to feel sad over someone who senselessly lost their ability to be a good father, husband and person. I would imagine that if he were not sick, he would not have chosen to be this way?
Perhaps you do just have to grieve him, it is a loss, and so senseless. I hate alcohol.
I can understand I think, what you are saying. He is almost like someone with dementia, who used to be nice, but now would kill you with his bare hands. It would be a very hard thing to grieve someone like that.
Perhaps just keep in mind that it is a disease, and he could not fight it, and it burned up his brain. That is sad. You are allowed to feel sad over someone who senselessly lost their ability to be a good father, husband and person. I would imagine that if he were not sick, he would not have chosen to be this way?
Perhaps you do just have to grieve him, it is a loss, and so senseless. I hate alcohol.
God's Kid
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,820
I hear you and I reckon it's like most grief, you do it as it comes up. I've had a few relationships with A's and had a period of being own my own for 5 years where I grieved a lot and from time to time, in certain situations, it comes back.
I'd say that if you are talking and thinking about you're already in the process.
I'd say that if you are talking and thinking about you're already in the process.
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Posts: 837
I think I know what you are saying. I've been grieving my ex for a long time as well, did you see the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"? . . total insanity! Yes, my heart breaks for my ex but I know he's never coming back to the way he was before.
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i'm not sure it's so much you grieve the PERSON as you grieve the EXPERIENCE? who he was to you in the past, in memory and in your heart. and then....that ENDED. try not to get caught up to much in the WHY it ended....sort of the difference between a funeral and a celebration of life.
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Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,884
Lillamy, ((((hugs))))
Yeap, know what your talking about. I use the Buddhist concept of compassion to help me deal with it. Compassion is when you can look at another human being and see their suffering and see your connection because you suffer as well. It doesn't mean you have to attach to or own their suffering, simply that you can recognize it.
Your friend,
Yeap, know what your talking about. I use the Buddhist concept of compassion to help me deal with it. Compassion is when you can look at another human being and see their suffering and see your connection because you suffer as well. It doesn't mean you have to attach to or own their suffering, simply that you can recognize it.
Your friend,
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I think I'm pretty much done grieving the potential of / with AXH. That ship is sailed and I accept that who he could have been, what our relationship and family could have been, never really was and will never be.
I THINK I'm getting past rage at AXH; at least, most of the time when he does cross my mind it's just kind of blank, numb, but the anger pokes it's head up now and again. Though, mostly, often, I think I'm just avoiding thinking about him and what life with him was like... I feel compassion for my uncle and the struggle he goes through with his alcoholism. I don't always have patience, but I can see how hard it is and can empathize to some degree for what he's going through.
But AXH isn't "just" an alcoholic/addict; he is abusive; he's a r-ist. The things he did.... No. I dont' think I can have compassion for some one who did what he did. I might reach forgiveness someday, but compassion, no.
I THINK I'm getting past rage at AXH; at least, most of the time when he does cross my mind it's just kind of blank, numb, but the anger pokes it's head up now and again. Though, mostly, often, I think I'm just avoiding thinking about him and what life with him was like... I feel compassion for my uncle and the struggle he goes through with his alcoholism. I don't always have patience, but I can see how hard it is and can empathize to some degree for what he's going through.
But AXH isn't "just" an alcoholic/addict; he is abusive; he's a r-ist. The things he did.... No. I dont' think I can have compassion for some one who did what he did. I might reach forgiveness someday, but compassion, no.
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I feel similarly about my best friend who died last year. I grieved the loss of her in my life when we quit being friends because of her drinking. Then she got sober, we reconnected, and a year later she has relapsed and died. Now I grieve again. But it is who she was, before the addiction took over, that I really miss.
It is just sad, what this does to some people.
It is just sad, what this does to some people.
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Lots and lots of good things to think about here -- thank you all!!!
I relate to the comparison with dementia. My grandmother slipped gradually into the fogs of Alzheimers, to the point where it was clearly noticeable when she was in her late 70s. She lived to be 96 and spent 20 years not being able to recognize her children, let alone her grandchildren. When she died, I had already grieved her. That parallel, I understand.
Is it his potential I'm grieving? Hmmm... I don't think it's his potential as it relates to me, or as in what he was to me. But you're right, Anvil, it's potential somehow. When I think about it, it's sort of like Jim Morrison -- an exceptionally talented, charismatic, and self-destructive person who could have lit up the world if it hadn't been for that last part, the self-destructive tendencies. Or like someone who wins the lottery and spends the money unwisely in a year and then is worse off than before the win. So in some philosophical sense, when you're grieving potential, you're grieving something that never existed.
A friend of mine was very angry when his mother remarried only a year after his alcoholic father's death. He felt his mother was dishonoring the father's memory, questioned whether she had been cheating on his father, because how can you marry someone that quickly if you haven't, etc. I told him that when you're married to an alcoholic, you grieve their death every day. So that when they finally die, all that's left might be a bit of tears but mostly relief.
And as always, our resident Buddhist gives me wise things to ponder. I really like this, m1k3:
I relate to the comparison with dementia. My grandmother slipped gradually into the fogs of Alzheimers, to the point where it was clearly noticeable when she was in her late 70s. She lived to be 96 and spent 20 years not being able to recognize her children, let alone her grandchildren. When she died, I had already grieved her. That parallel, I understand.
Is it his potential I'm grieving? Hmmm... I don't think it's his potential as it relates to me, or as in what he was to me. But you're right, Anvil, it's potential somehow. When I think about it, it's sort of like Jim Morrison -- an exceptionally talented, charismatic, and self-destructive person who could have lit up the world if it hadn't been for that last part, the self-destructive tendencies. Or like someone who wins the lottery and spends the money unwisely in a year and then is worse off than before the win. So in some philosophical sense, when you're grieving potential, you're grieving something that never existed.
A friend of mine was very angry when his mother remarried only a year after his alcoholic father's death. He felt his mother was dishonoring the father's memory, questioned whether she had been cheating on his father, because how can you marry someone that quickly if you haven't, etc. I told him that when you're married to an alcoholic, you grieve their death every day. So that when they finally die, all that's left might be a bit of tears but mostly relief.
And as always, our resident Buddhist gives me wise things to ponder. I really like this, m1k3:
Compassion is when you can look at another human being and see their suffering and see your connection because you suffer as well. It doesn't mean you have to attach to or own their suffering, simply that you can recognize it.
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Oh, and I'm grateful for the reminder that grief comes the way it comes, in waves, and that that's OK. One of my primary coping mechanisms is intellectualizing things so that I can study them from the outside rather than having to experience them from the inside. Sort of like taking pictures of life instead of living it. I've got to stop that sh*t.
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Walk of the Earth -Gotye Somebody That I Used To Know- With lyrics [HD] - YouTube
Gotye - Somebody That I Used To Know
Now and then I think of when we were together
Like when you said you felt so happy you could die
I told myself that you were right for me
But felt so lonely in your company
But that was love and it's an ache I still remember
You can get addicted to a certain kind of sadness
Like resignation to the end
Always the end
So when we found that we could not make sense
Well you said that we would still be friends
But I'll admit that I was glad that it was over
But you didn't have to cut me off
Make out like it never happened
And that we were nothing
And I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a stranger
And that feels so rough
No you didn't have to stoop so low
Have your friends collect your records
And then change your number
I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now and then I think of all the times you screwed me over
But had me believing it was always something that I'd done
But I don't wanna live that way
Reading into every word you say
You said that you could let it go
And I wouldn't catch you hung up on somebody that you used to know
But you didn't have to cut me off
Make out like it never happened
And that we were nothing
And I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a stranger
And that feels so rough
No you didn't have to stoop so low
Have your friends collect your records
And then change your number
I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
(Somebody)
I used to know
(Somebody)
Somebody that I used to know
(Somebody)
I used to know
(Somebody)
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
I used to know
That I used to know
I used to know
Somebody
Gotye - Somebody That I Used To Know
Now and then I think of when we were together
Like when you said you felt so happy you could die
I told myself that you were right for me
But felt so lonely in your company
But that was love and it's an ache I still remember
You can get addicted to a certain kind of sadness
Like resignation to the end
Always the end
So when we found that we could not make sense
Well you said that we would still be friends
But I'll admit that I was glad that it was over
But you didn't have to cut me off
Make out like it never happened
And that we were nothing
And I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a stranger
And that feels so rough
No you didn't have to stoop so low
Have your friends collect your records
And then change your number
I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now and then I think of all the times you screwed me over
But had me believing it was always something that I'd done
But I don't wanna live that way
Reading into every word you say
You said that you could let it go
And I wouldn't catch you hung up on somebody that you used to know
But you didn't have to cut me off
Make out like it never happened
And that we were nothing
And I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a stranger
And that feels so rough
No you didn't have to stoop so low
Have your friends collect your records
And then change your number
I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
(Somebody)
I used to know
(Somebody)
Somebody that I used to know
(Somebody)
I used to know
(Somebody)
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
I used to know
That I used to know
I used to know
Somebody
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Posts: 1,038
When you say thinking of your XA now as a former Olympic athlete - I know. I notice I am still proud to associate myself with the strength and brilliance and physical beauty of my Stbx. And I see what's still left of that, mixed in with the newer self-pitying, lying, shaky drunk that he has morphed into.
I think he is still proud of me, too. He has seen in court here how I have adapted comfortably to the language and culture here. And how I am strong.
It is even sad to realize how much we could have been supporting each other instead of tearing each other to pieces. We have put each other in so much pain. Me, by leaving him, shutting him out, moving on and sharing my story with the people in our lives. He by leaving me in a constant state of precariousness and fear and anxiety.
And what the children could have had! But they are also learning some good lessons and I am growing and Stbx is facing a few consequences for the first time in his life. Not enough to awaken him completely, but a glimmer of light shines in occasionally. And then he is almost humanoid again.
Who said they are like zombies? Was it Anvilhead? Excellent.
I think he is still proud of me, too. He has seen in court here how I have adapted comfortably to the language and culture here. And how I am strong.
It is even sad to realize how much we could have been supporting each other instead of tearing each other to pieces. We have put each other in so much pain. Me, by leaving him, shutting him out, moving on and sharing my story with the people in our lives. He by leaving me in a constant state of precariousness and fear and anxiety.
And what the children could have had! But they are also learning some good lessons and I am growing and Stbx is facing a few consequences for the first time in his life. Not enough to awaken him completely, but a glimmer of light shines in occasionally. And then he is almost humanoid again.
Who said they are like zombies? Was it Anvilhead? Excellent.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Rochester, ny
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by Hammer 
Walk of the Earth -Gotye Somebody That I Used To Know- With lyrics [HD] - YouTube
Gotye - Somebody That I Used To Know
Now and then I think of when we were together
Like when you said you felt so happy you could die
I told myself that you were right for me
But felt so lonely in your company
But that was love and it's an ache I still remember
You can get addicted to a certain kind of sadness
Like resignation to the end
Always the end
So when we found that we could not make sense
Well you said that we would still be friends
But I'll admit that I was glad that it was over
But you didn't have to cut me off
Make out like it never happened
And that we were nothing
And I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a stranger
And that feels so rough
No you didn't have to stoop so low
Have your friends collect your records
And then change your number
I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now and then I think of all the times you screwed me over
But had me believing it was always something that I'd done
But I don't wanna live that way
Reading into every word you say
You said that you could let it go
And I wouldn't catch you hung up on somebody that you used to know
But you didn't have to cut me off
Make out like it never happened
And that we were nothing
And I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a stranger
And that feels so rough
No you didn't have to stoop so low
Have your friends collect your records
And then change your number
I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
(Somebody)
I used to know
(Somebody)
Somebody that I used to know
(Somebody)
I used to know
(Somebody)
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
I used to know
That I used to know
I used to know
Somebody
Gotye - Somebody That I Used To Know
Now and then I think of when we were together
Like when you said you felt so happy you could die
I told myself that you were right for me
But felt so lonely in your company
But that was love and it's an ache I still remember
You can get addicted to a certain kind of sadness
Like resignation to the end
Always the end
So when we found that we could not make sense
Well you said that we would still be friends
But I'll admit that I was glad that it was over
But you didn't have to cut me off
Make out like it never happened
And that we were nothing
And I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a stranger
And that feels so rough
No you didn't have to stoop so low
Have your friends collect your records
And then change your number
I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
Now and then I think of all the times you screwed me over
But had me believing it was always something that I'd done
But I don't wanna live that way
Reading into every word you say
You said that you could let it go
And I wouldn't catch you hung up on somebody that you used to know
But you didn't have to cut me off
Make out like it never happened
And that we were nothing
And I don't even need your love
But you treat me like a stranger
And that feels so rough
No you didn't have to stoop so low
Have your friends collect your records
And then change your number
I guess that I don't need that though
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
(Somebody)
I used to know
(Somebody)
Somebody that I used to know
(Somebody)
I used to know
(Somebody)
Now you're just somebody that I used to know
I used to know
That I used to know
I used to know
Somebody
This song is so sad. But the girl's part makes me feel a little less upset: "Now and then I think of all the times you screwed me over. But you had me believing it was always something that I'd done.
The guy seems to have no concept of how he treated her. Like the A's in our lives who hurt us badly, screwed with our hearts and heads and made us think it was something WE had done.
I grieve too, still. He was very special to me...supposedly I was to him too but the chaos and inability to address his part in it killed the rship.
I find it hard to process the pain of having given the best I could to support him, encourage, help him look for work, not ride him about leaving for months at a time to work in another state. The giving good and in the end, after he couldn't sustain the good in the face of his problems, he gave me bad in return.
Hope that made sense.....
One thing I know: grief really really sucks.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Right here, right now!
Posts: 3,424
I don't know if this is still a piece of it or not Lillamy.
I am grieving the fact that my loved one has no interest in getting better. Actually it is more then just him. It is hard to see others in pain, and hardest to see them caught in the circle of hurting themselves.
It also makes me understand how long I did that to myself.
It is not my fault or anything, but recovery (though hard) has brought so much to my life.
It makes me terribly sad that another would miss out on this growth opportunity. I think there has to be discomfort in growth and it makes me sad to see what he/others are missing out on because of the discomfort.
I am grieving the fact that my loved one has no interest in getting better. Actually it is more then just him. It is hard to see others in pain, and hardest to see them caught in the circle of hurting themselves.
It also makes me understand how long I did that to myself.
It is not my fault or anything, but recovery (though hard) has brought so much to my life.
It makes me terribly sad that another would miss out on this growth opportunity. I think there has to be discomfort in growth and it makes me sad to see what he/others are missing out on because of the discomfort.
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