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Spouse's depression: do you step in?

Old 07-30-2013, 08:15 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by amy55 View Post
Liz, I had to walk away from this a bit. Had to think. That conversation with your H was just so familiar. So what did you get out of it?

You would bring up things, he knocked them down.

I had many of these conversations. I was just thankful that he didn't explode, or rage at me. He would be calm. I would walk away thinking it was a good conversation.

Later on I started to doubt myself, I would tape those conversations, then I would listen to them over and over.

What your H said was absolutely nothing, except that you and your son are his problem.

He didn't say he was going to stop drinking, didn't say he would listen to his doctor, said he didn't want a divorce, didn't say what he would do, said what you should do.

And my head is still spinning. I may have to take aspirins and lay down for you.
You know what's funny about the rage and the explosions. He kept asking me, "haven't I been better since I started medications? When was the last time I did those things?" Now, I have to admit that he hasn't raged or exploded or turned stark raving crazy since being on the paxil, but the disease still has it's grips on him. So, I pointed out the lying among other things. I reminded him of the time back in April when he decided to hug me(nice gesture at first) then started to grab my rear and whispered in my ear, "I know you don't like me touching you but I realized I can go ahead and do it any way." He then kept doing it all day and grabbed my chest, too, or rubbed up against me. I called my sponsor and she told me to ignore him and by the next day the behavior had stopped. I told him that I knew he was challenging me then and that I was pissed and felt he was being aggressive. He agreed and smirked a bit about it and said, "Yes, I was challenging you. Hey, I haven't had sex for a year and you're MY WIFE."

As you pointed out Amy, I think there's a part of me that's just glad that he doesn't rage anymore and because he's calm I am more prone to believing him? Honestly, I don't know. He sounds so convincing but I've gotten better at really listening to what I know is my truth and I can see that it's just 'words'. Again, actions speak louder than words.

He again made a stink about the fact that we sleep in separate bedrooms, which truly did start because of his snoring so badly. I reminded him that he had agreed to do a sleep study while we were in marriage counseling. So, last night he went out and bought Snore Stop and I guess he's hoping that will get me back in bed? He says he doesn't remember agreeing to it but that he would go ahead and schedule it, as well. He seems to have this idea that just because we would be sleeping in the same bed, that he would have easier access. He now calls the bedroom where I sleep 'your bedroom' instead of the spare room. I just ignore him.

I called a program friend last night and we talked about a few things including the reason I am staying (which quite frankly is more than what I've put out here because I know this is a public forum). She gave me the number to a group of low cost lawyers who provide services to women who are looking for legal advice, resume preparation, etc. You have to take some of their classes but she said it is well worth it. I will be looking into this over the next few months as I get my head wrapped around a few financial things here, too.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:18 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa View Post
See, he knows how desperately you want him to change. He doesn't want to (maybe he's not even capable of changing the way you want him to), but he knows what you want. So, he plays the game of dangling it in front of you. If only you would do something different, maybe he could change. If only you would praise him more, have more sex with him, stop getting angry when he's an ass, support him, believe him, trust him.......then he could be the man you've always wanted him to be.

So, until you are willing to give up your fantasy of him becoming somebody else, and accept that he is exactly who he is, he will continue to play you like a violin.

L
Thank you. I needed to read that today.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:13 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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I would not do well living with a menacing presence like that in my house. He sounds really creepy to me.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:24 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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he decided to hug me(nice gesture at first) then started to grab my rear and whispered in my ear, "I know you don't like me touching you but I realized I can go ahead and do it any way." He then kept doing it all day and grabbed my chest, too, or rubbed up against me.
That's unacceptable. And if I had been your sponsor, I would not have told you to ignore it. I would have told you to get as far away as possible from this man. I agree with Stella. His behavior is very creepy.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:28 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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I reminded him of the time back in April when he decided to hug me(nice gesture at first) then started to grab my rear and whispered in my ear, "I know you don't like me touching you but I realized I can go ahead and do it any way." He then kept doing it all day and grabbed my chest, too, or rubbed up against me. I called my sponsor and she told me to ignore him and by the next day the behavior had stopped. I told him that I knew he was challenging me(what?!?!?) then and that I was pissed and felt he was being aggressive. He agreed and smirked a bit about it and said, "Yes, I was challenging you. Hey, I haven't had sex for a year and you're MY WIFE."
Oh my god liz.

I feel for you so much, I have had this experience too.
I shut down emotionally and for a long time, I shielded myself with alcohol.
When I read this, my stomach started to churn and I felt nauseous.

Is this what you want your 14 year old to know about relationships?
How women are treated? Of course not.
I was abused this way by my ex, and then, he would threaten to find
another woman (abandon me) if I did not give in.
I am glad that you have a sponsor to call in this situation.
I do not think you can ignore this behavior.
Obviously, it is still on your mind.
He smirks about it? He sounds like he feels entitled and that is bad news
for you and your son.
Challenging you? I do not see how this is anything but sexually molesting you,
and being sexually aggressive against you because he thinks he has a RIGHT to you.

What is it about him that keeps you in this relationship?
Or, more importantly what is it about you that you think this is what
you deserve out of your one and only life?

I called a program friend last night and we talked about a few things including the reason I am staying (which quite frankly is more than what I've put out here because I know this is a public forum).
Okay, I do get that. Of course, as always when I ask, it is just to think
about, for YOU.

She gave me the number to a group of low cost lawyers who provide services to women who are looking for legal advice, resume preparation, etc. You have to take some of their classes but she said it is well worth it. I will be looking into this over the next few months as I get my head wrapped around a few financial things here, too.

Continue to take care of yourself and making those contingency plans.
This is excellent news and I truly hope you get this done.
I think it will help you to have concrete knowledge and facts.
It always helped me, instead of sitting around with my worst case scenarios, and not making a move.

I care about what happens to you and your son lizatola.
work your recovery like you wish he would work his.
It is the only way through it, truly the only thing that worked for me.
It is so sad when I think about myself then,
wanting so badly just to get some affection, a hug or kiss
without it turning into sex every single time.
I was going to the hardware store for bread.
Thank goodness for Kroger!


Beth
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:33 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
I reminded him of the time back in April when he decided to hug me(nice gesture at first) then started to grab my rear and whispered in my ear, "I know you don't like me touching you but I realized I can go ahead and do it any way." He then kept doing it all day and grabbed my chest, too, or rubbed up against me. I called my sponsor and she told me to ignore him and by the next day the behavior had stopped. I told him that I knew he was challenging me then and that I was pissed and felt he was being aggressive. He agreed and smirked a bit about it and said, "Yes, I was challenging you. Hey, I haven't had sex for a year and you're MY WIFE."
This is a form of sexual assault (in NJ, it would be "criminal sexual contact" and it is a CRIME, as well as a basis for a restraining order).

This is, indeed, creepy stuff and out-and-out abuse.
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:57 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa View Post
See, he knows how desperately you want him to change. He doesn't want to (maybe he's not even capable of changing the way you want him to), but he knows what you want. So, he plays the game of dangling it in front of you. If only you would do something different, maybe he could change. If only you would praise him more, have more sex with him, stop getting angry when he's an ass, support him, believe him, trust him.......then he could be the man you've always wanted him to be.

So, until you are willing to give up your fantasy of him becoming somebody else, and accept that he is exactly who he is, he will continue to play you like a violin.L
YES!! this a classic for us co dependents!
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:14 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Liz, this is a quote from a book I really like. Das Energi by Paul Williams.

If you do not feel free, it is because you have not yet
declared your own freedom, you are waiting for it to be
given to you.

You will wait forever.
Whenever I read your threads I think of this quote.

Your friend,
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:19 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Liz, there's a great book out there called "The Gift of Fear." It's everywhere -- try and grab a copy.

Your AH is grooming you for more abuse. That's what the unwanted touching is about.
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:50 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Florence View Post
Liz, there's a great book out there called "The Gift of Fear." It's everywhere -- try and grab a copy.

Your AH is grooming you for more abuse. That's what the unwanted touching is about.

Thank you, I will look into it. And, Mike's book reference too!
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:08 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Liz, I just want to warn you this book was written in 1973 and reads like it. It has a rather heavy hippie influence but as someone from that strange and mystic age I rather like it.

I feel like singing the Age of Aquarius right now.

Your friend,
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:10 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LaTeeDa View Post
If only you would praise him more, have more sex with him, stop getting angry when he's an ass, support him, believe him, trust him.......then he could be the man you've always wanted him to be.

So, until you are willing to give up your fantasy of him becoming somebody else, and accept that he is exactly who he is, he will continue to play you like a violin.

L
I also was struck by this....and how much it helped to explain the dynamics of which I was living. I also am how struck by how guilty at times I continue to feel that I could not make it all right. In actuality I was doing enough, enough to keep the house running, enough work wise, and more then enough "for" him in the hopes of making it okay.
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:11 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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he decided to hug me(nice gesture at first) then started to grab my rear and whispered in my ear, "I know you don't like me touching you but I realized I can go ahead and do it any way." He then kept doing it all day and grabbed my chest, too, or rubbed up against me.
WTF? Pepper spray time.
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:32 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by choublak View Post
WTF? Pepper spray time.
Funny, but I did go out and buy pepper spray the other week. Seriously. And, when I brought up how I felt about this incident on Sunday, he just agreed that he was challenging me but never apologized, just made up a lame excuse as to why he did it. He said, "Well, I realized it didn't work so obviously, I didn't keep doing it right?" Gee, thanks for giving me that break.
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:38 AM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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Liz, why are you having conversations with this a-hat? They are just his way of buying time, of getting the upper hand, of keeping you stuck.

There would be nothing a creep like this could say that would have me sticking around for another minute.

NOW. At THIS time. There was a time when I felt that if I could *just make him see* how his actions made me feel, he would correct them. I believed he wanted to be part of our family and didn't know how - maybe he just needed me to point it out, to explain it, to KEEP TALKING.

And that is how I lost 14 years of my youth.
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:57 AM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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Liz, I feel concern sometimes that you often begin replies with "Funny, but..." or "You know what's funny about that..."

I know it's a common turn of phrase, but almost all of what you describe here is decidedly not 'funny' - either in the ha-ha sense or the surprising sense of the word. And phrases like that have a way of diminishing the impact of your conversations (as you report them) with your AH.

I don't know if you ever go back a re-read old threads of yours, but if you did you might see how very little of the information you get from these conversations reads as new. You two seem to keep treading over the same ground and not really getting anywhere.

I truly hope all of you find a way through this maze and soon. Sending you strength and courage, as always.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:01 PM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
He said, "Well, I realized it didn't work so obviously, I didn't keep doing it right?" Gee, thanks for giving me that break.
Bad sign, there. He didn't stop groping (nope--call it what it is: sexually abusing) you because you don't like it. He only stopped because it didn't achieve his goal. It's likely he may continue to pursue his own agenda by other means that are just as dismissive of your wants/needs/likes but more harmful to you. He may well want physical intimacy from you, but I suspect this behavior is more about maintaining control, not just physically but over your thoughts, feelings, and moods. If he can't do it by drinking, he will try the passive-aggressive crapola. When that stops working, it goes hands-on and can go badly very quickly.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:15 PM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by POAndrea View Post
Bad sign, there. He didn't stop groping (nope--call it what it is: sexually abusing) you because you don't like it. He only stopped because it didn't achieve his goal. It's likely he may continue to pursue his own agenda by other means that are just as dismissive of your wants/needs/likes but more harmful to you. He may well want physical intimacy from you, but I suspect this behavior is more about maintaining control, not just physically but over your thoughts, feelings, and moods. If he can't do it by drinking, he will try the passive-aggressive crapola. When that stops working, it goes hands-on and can go badly very quickly.
Exactly. "It didn't work, so obviously I didn't keep doing it."

That is alarming. No recognition it was wrong, it was simply a decision to move on to a different tactic.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:33 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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You know, Liz, I know that you sometimes feel defensive when you get people giving you pretty strong advice to get the heck outtathere. I know you want to fight for your marriage, even if I can't understand what it is your fighting for. Economists sometimes talk about "loss aversion" -- meaning we're more afraid of losing a little than gaining a lot, and that instinct is so strong in us that we sometimes make irrational decisions in the face of losing (that's how gamblers and stockbrokers can end up losing tremendous amounts of money in an effort to recoup a fairly small initial loss).

Here's what's really bothering me: You are normalizing and getting used to something that in my state as well would qualify as sexual assault. The fact that he is your husband and he feels he has a right to do it makes no difference.

When I was in that situation in my marriage, I did the same thing. I didn't want to rock the boat. I decided that saying no would create more of a problem than just letting him do it. And I can tell you that of all the things I am dealing with in my recovery and in therapy now, three years after divorcing him? That part is the hardest part. It's harder than the emotional abuse. It's harder than the verbal abuse. It's harder than the fear of him waiting for me outside of work to kill me.

Because I voluntarily gave up my body for him to abuse in order to avoid worse abuse.

You have to make your own choices. But I can tell you when you make the choice to blow that off and not react strongly to it, it can have consequences that can follow you for a very, very long time.

I'm very concerned about you.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:50 PM
  # 40 (permalink)  
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Sometimes I ask myself "would I tolerate that treatment from a stranger on the street?"

I just left a job where my boss was disrespectful and verbally abusive. He screamed at me when I asked questions. And it took someone else to point out that he did NOT have the right to treat me that way just because I took a paycheck.

So I know it's easy to normalize bizarre, abusive tactics. Which is why you have us to point out that what you are accepting is ABUSE. Actual physical, sexual abuse. Your son is suffering and he knows - whether you believe it or not.

There may be good reasons for you not to dissolve this marriage that you can't post online, but I would be surprised if they surpassed your basic right to physical safety.
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