ZenMe

A different thread got me thinking about this and I probably should have posted it as a new thread anyhow. So here it is.

So the thought was "what gets us so sucked in to the alcoholic cycle, merry go round cycle, abuse cycle etc and why is it hard to leave"

I believe it's partly because at a subconscious level we engage in "intermittent reinforcement" which according to Operant Conditioning makes it even harder for us to break free and change our conditioned behaviors. From Wikipedia:

"Operant conditioning or instrumental conditioning, a form of learning in which behavior is modified by its consequences "

Oversimplifying of course...

Say your in Vegas:

A) You spend a few minutes playing a slot machine that never pays out, you quickly stop playing that slot machine after 5 minutes.

B) You find a new slot machine that in the first 3 minutes has paid out every game you play! you continue to play but it then consistently no longer pays out, you quickly stop playing this slot machine (can't lose all that hard earned cash). Looks like it's done paying. At this slot machine you played 5 minutes.

C) you find a slot machine that within a short time frame, say 3 minutes, pays and doesn't pay. It's not consistent, it's random and you haven't cracked the code, it seems to pay every 2 minutes, you win 2 in a row, then you don't win for 3, then win again, etc. It's conditioning you that there's a win in the future, and maybe the jackpot. This is the slot machine people play the most and are going to have the hardest time walking away from. You stopped playing because you are losing more than you are winning overall. At this slot machine you played 30 minutes. (this is intermittent reinforcement)

Feel free to post anything you like, not looking for specific responses just sharing a thought.

DreamsofSerenity

That is interesting, Zen.

Yes, I think that is definitely part of it. If the alkie was always mean, it'd be easy to leave, right?

But I still think that there is something else going on with someone who puts up with abuse, even if it is intermittent. The intermittent kindness hooks us but not just anyone would fall into the abusive cycle. You have to be SPECIAL like us! (Sarcasm)

amy55

Sort like Stockholm Syndrome. You keep waiting for any kind of crumbs of affection that you can get. You are waiting for the one that hurt you to make you all better.

Diva76

Yep. You hit the nail on the head!
I'm about to catch some zzzzz,
so I will comment on this some more
when I'm actually alert!

You have some really great insights and this is certainly going to serve you in recovery and beyond....

Linda

CharlieNoogan

I think this thread where bigsombrero posted the article "The Addict's Dilemma" deals well with this issue.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...s-article.html

The article describes well the "dilemma" that alcoholics/addicts deal with every day. Namely, understanding that their addiction is destroying their life, but trying to balance that with the overwhelming almost instinctual feeling that they cannot live without their DOC.

Yurt

I think that this is oe of my biggest dilemas. Things have been mostly good this month, with occasional outbursts. Just enough to not justify doing anything drastic ( like think about leaving). So what is the solution? He doesn't have a problem (right?) But I still wait for the other shoe to drop. And it WILL drop. And we go through the whole routine again. I feel like a freakin yo-yo. A very unhappy yo-yo.

Lulu39

Ahh, yes. The intermittent chicken thing: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-chick-en.html

Seren

Yep, the whole intermittent chicken, thing....

lillamy

I still want to start a rock band called "Intermittent Chicken"...

Tuffgirl

If you call it the Intermittent Ptarmigan, it could have an Alaskan theme to it.

ZenMe

The chicken example is great! Even far more simple than my on the fly example. I like the slots because there's a cost benefit factor involved as well. When you consider the money you are spending.

I was thinking in my example the gambling money is actually your time/energy/self etc. As a codie I find it easier to help someone else, before I help myself. I would say normies protect their time/energy/self/money better and walk away sooner with that in mind. Their intrinsic self worth comes from how they take care of themselves vs how they help others.

lilamy: think of the groupies! You couldn't shake them off with a big stick.

Skydreamer73

Funny I just wrote a long post (sorry) which is sort of the same thing, I think it is almost like pulling the plug on a friend or family member in a coma for a year or more with a slim chance of recovery, at a certain point you really know it is the best thing to do, yet you do not want to let go, plus what if the next day they find a cure for whatever was wrong, how could you live with your decision? We are victims because we care, and as mentioned above we often get just enough crumbs to say, "ah what's one more day" yet those days usually end up adding into years as we have allowed ourselves to be conditioned into thinking this is normal.....

Yurt

Yes, it's like you're making an investment. If you walk away, then you are throwing away all of that time, money, and energy. The longer you stay, the more difficult it is to leave, because now the investment is even greater. Then it takes even fewer crumbs to sustain you.
How do you make that emotional shift to change that mindset? Because it seems that one has to have things really go to hell in order to justify making a change.
What I really want to see happen is for my AH's behaviour to change, but I guess I have no control over that.
Even when I change my responses to his outbursts the end result is usually the same. He is never contrite, and I wind up feeling like sh#t.

ZenMe

We definitely don't have control over things like them helping themselves. What we do have control over is how we react to them. That's one of the things I have been working on. Reacting better to what comes my way so I don't feel like sh*t.

The house never loses. To me gambling is a no win situation if what you are trying to do is get rich. You become addicted to it and it leaves you poor. Investing in an active alcoholic is like playing the slots.

That's the funny thing of it all, you aren't throwing away that time, money and energy, you are actually allowing yourself to find an investment that will actually pay out. In the first case you end up poor, in the second case you learned your lesson and got rich off the investment that actually paid out.

Granted we also have to enjoy the now and not waiting for the big pay out.

Yurt

I guess I need to get past this stage then, because I keep thinking that the last 21 years have been n for nothing. Realistically, I know better. I have learned so much and have a beautiful, brilliant daughter as well.
So if I get past this stage, then I just have to deal with guilt?

ZenMe

Sounds to me that you have to let go of the guilt so you can move on to the next thing that will make you happy, whatever that may be. That realization comes from taking a step back and focusing on you.

sadielady on the forums posted a great quote...
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-go-quote.html

Springs

I think this is true, but from what I've been reading about codependency we are also likely, sadly, addicted to having bad parts in our life. We don't actually want a slot machine that pays out regularly and consistently even if we say we do (without our own recovery that is). I'm still trying to figure out the "why" but the addiction to emotional high [I]and[I] lows is resonant for me.

ZenMe

A thought...maybe it's because we grew up in an environment that was so volatile that in order to get us to feel it takes that level of crazy. That crazy became our normal. We built a resistance to it. Where other people get the love high from something less dramatic, we need the extremes.

I'm sure it applies to me with the way I grew up.

Yurt

I don't think that we necessarily have need for the craziness, just a higher tolerance. I grew up in a household with lots of screaming and drama, and I guess that I am just used to it. I sure as heck would ratherr do without it now.