Step 9...how do they know what to apologize for?

Old 06-23-2013, 11:13 PM
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Step 9...how do they know what to apologize for?

I don't quite get how RAH will know what to make amends for? I gather that the self inventory etc all leads up to this, but how can they understand the full scale of things? Is it a general vague type apology or specific? can I point him in a direction lol

All in all I really don't care about it, because I feel like the major things still stuck in my craw will never be addressed. and I suppose that is for me to make peace with......AND it seems like the past is never to be brought up.....so WTF?

How do they know what they did without asking? just curious
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:36 AM
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Dear Amber, I am lined up along side of you, right now, waiting for the answers to this one.
This whole subject is a sticking point for me.

Buckle your seatbelt for this one......(LOL)


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Old 06-24-2013, 05:40 AM
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They are supposed to do the "figuring out" during the 8th Step, which is done with the guidance of a sponsor. And the recommended action is to ask the person to whom you are making amends if there were other things that need to be put right.

Remember, amends are not about groveling with apologies to anyone you've ever harmed. It's about setting right, to the extent possible, the wrongs that were done. Are the things that "stick in your craw" things that can be made right? Or are they just resentments at this point that YOU need to address?

And don't forget, Al-Anon has an 8th and 9th Step, too.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:48 AM
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Remember: Expectations = Resentments

That is why we have to stay on our side of the street in recovery and ask ourselves if what we have in this relationship, right now, is what we want and what makes us happy? If not, we need to evaluate the relationship in our lives.

I'm pretty guilty myself of the whole expectation thing this weekend. I'm paying for it, so this is a good reminder for me.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:02 AM
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I don't think a little resentment is a bad thing as long as you aren't too attached to it. It helps keep all the " this time will be better and she really means it this time and now I can finally get the life I always wanted but never had with her " daydreams in check.

These are people who did things to hurt us and hurt us bad. In my case I feel it is fine to forgive but never forget.

Your friend,
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:06 AM
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I think remembering is different from resenting. Resentment is when you literally re-feel whatever the injustice was--playing it over and over in your head, and getting all those emotions back in knots. It's possible to remember without resentment. I vividly recall many things that I was subjected to by the alcoholics, but they don't get me all worked up anymore. They happened; they hurt; it's over; it no longer affects me.
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:55 AM
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I have been reading the steps over on the alcoholics board and some have taken step 4 more than once. Recovery is an ongoing process it seems and some things are yet to be reveled also pertains to the aa's. I also wondered how do they know and what does it look like when the amend is sincere...so I googled how to make a sincere apology...lots of info! To me it is necessary that empathy and acceptance of responsibility is included as part of the apology to make an amend for the hurt in order to right those wrongs. I do understand that my rxab is sick and do not hold a resentment but there are still wrongs that need to be put right! Thanks Mike...forgive but don't forget.
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:20 AM
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waiting for someone else to make amends to us for the wrongs AS WE SEE THEM is an effort in futility. step 8 tells us to make a list of all persons we have harmed and become WILLING to make amends to them all. that means the list usually has two parts...those we ARE willing to make now, and those we aren't ready to make yet.

making amends can take many forms. depends on the level of commitment and honesty by the amends maker. the AA Big Book gives a clear outline on how amends may be made. however it also says that amends might not be accepted.

no magic words will heal YOUR pain. those things stuck in your craw are, wll, in YOUR craw. you decide how long you carry those things around inside you. waiting for him to fix it continues to give away your power.

lexie brings up a very good point. that the steps are not just for the addict/alcoholic. we can take them for ourselves...take our own inventory, honestly assess the things we have done that hurt others and then make a list and become willing to make amends.

I always find it an interesting study in human nature that the non-addict tends to skim thru the steps til they come to the 'but what about me' step - aka step 9, as if steps 1 thru 8 are a walk in the park!
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by involved View Post
I have been reading the steps over on the alcoholics board and some have taken step 4 more than once. Recovery is an ongoing process it seems and some things are yet to be reveled also pertains to the aa's.
I believe that the idea is that a person, whether AA or Alanon, is continuously working on one step or another, not that once the steps have been gone thru, the slate is wiped clean and all is good.

As I grow and learn, I would expect to find something more/new in each step as I return to it, hopefully as a slightly more mature and wise individual, so there would be value in repeating the steps.

And yes, it is pretty annoying to have to admit that we, the Alanon folk, have to make amends too, when we have gone around for so long believing we were blameless, the GOOD ones in the relationship, and so why should WE have to do anything about the royal mess we're in?!?! Hmmm....once you start to look at it from a different angle, we're not quite so innocent....
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:59 PM
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Everyone in every program has to do their own work, so I like to focus on how will I know what I should make amends for, not what amends to expect.

By the time I was busy having a spiritual experience using AA literature, I was so content with my own program that I forgot about the last ex I was with (this guy was a sociopath, too). I changed so much that if I had ever seen him again he would have shot himself for losing me.

In some cases we don't go back to exA's. it depends on the seriousness of the relationship or what the issues were.

As for how the A makes amends and for what, it's all outlined in Step 9 in AAs Big Book, a book every Alanon should at least read, if not do.
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:49 PM
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Some good insight here. I'm not sure why you are concerned about this. Step 9 has everything to do with the alcoholic staying sober and virtually nothing to do with the people amends are made to. If you are waiting with anticipation for some kind of earth-shattering, all-encompassing apology and grovelling you will be very disappointed.
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:51 PM
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Personally, forgiveness and closure are something you give yourself. It's not anything you'll get from someone else, especially not if you're holding your breath for step work. This kind of expectation is designed to lead to disappointment and resentment.
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:20 PM
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I just have to be very honest and confess that no matter how many explanations I examine from the alanon side or AA side---I don't get it. I have tried, but, I just don't.

Maybe, some year, the clouds will open and it will all add up.

Perhaps I am the most dense person on the planet.

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Old 06-24-2013, 02:47 PM
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For me, it was about asking forgiveness and setting things right, if possible. Many times, just me staying sober and practicing the 12 steps in all my affairs is "living amends" for things that I cannot actually "fix". Now, for their resentments and stuff...well, not mine.

Also, it was not a laundry list of "here is what I did to you". It was more of a restoration of a relationship, not the tally of misdeeds to grovel about. I never scraped before anyone during my amends, but I remained as humble as I knew how.

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Old 06-24-2013, 02:50 PM
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what is it specifically you don't get Dandylion? cuz you're pretty dang sharp!!! we usually can't slip nothing past ya!
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:52 PM
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It comes down to this, dandylion. We don't have a "stake" in someone else's recovery program--only our own. It's none of our business if they work all 12 Steps as set down in the Big Book or not. Some people recover very nicely without doing the formal 12-Step work or even setting foot in an AA meeting. It isn't something anyone else is "owed."

If an apology or some kind of corrective action is critical to the relationship, then discuss it with the person who aggrieved you. Up to them whether to accommodate you, and up to you what you do about it if they don't. But that is separate from the "amends" in the 9th Step.

Does that make it any clearer?

And it's often a good idea to take a real hard look at our own resentments and the role they are playing in our "need" to have that apology or reparation.
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:07 PM
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Dear Anvil--thanks for asking. It just feels to me like the person who has been hurt or abused has no other alternative but to suck it up. For example, the A gets to decide when and if and who they are willing to make amends to. The person who recieved the hurt and damage is admonished to bear no resentment---it is as if having hurt feelings and deep scars is considered a "sin" of the one abused.

I think that the heart of what I don't get is trying to figure out how trust can be restored to the relationship if the perpetrator of the abuse never feels (or willing to demonstrate) that they have any compassion or remorse for the damage they have done. I think trust is hard to come by by just "forgiving" and/or forgetting.

Now, I completely get the part where the co-dependent has done harm or abuse--I I believe that compassion and apology and any restitution possible is well in order if the relationship is to be repaired and able to grow forward. I have no problem at all with that.

I hope I have communicated my confusion--cause this is actually hard to put words to.......(LOL) Anvil, I know I usually don't have a loss for words!!!!!!!

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Old 06-24-2013, 03:19 PM
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Well, you are assuming a couple of things. One is that the relationship MUST be restored--obviously it does not. The other is that letting go of a resentment equals saying that the person harmed is to blame. Not at all--the point is that the resentment only harms YOU, not the other person. So YOU are the one with the injury, and the one who must heal. And you owe it to yourself to heal, regardless of what the other person did. If you wait until the other person apologizes and makes it right, then you are walking around with scars you don't have to bear.
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:44 PM
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Dear Lexie---maybe you are touching on a very painful area for me---that the relationship MUST be restored. I get the part that carrying the pain hurts me and I have been pretty good at letting it be history and over with. Detachment has been my greatest tool.

My problem is with a mother-son relationship. My son is in early recovery and I know he has miles and miles to go!! It is hard for a mother who has suffered abuse to give up on the hope that down the road there might be genuine remorse for past actions. It just seems that that would be a necessary precursor to restoration of trust. You know, "bit once, twice shy".

Now, I know that it would be pure folly to even mention past transgressions. That is no-no number one! I would rather spit straight into the face of an Alabama State Trooper---it would be safer. Actually, I have recently gone back to no contact because of a "dry drunk/King Baby" episode on the phone. (see recent thread).

It is just that way, way down the road, and a lot more of recovery---I think a heart-felt and sincere apology would go a long way toward the restoration of trust.

I know that there is no law of the universe that says that the relationship trust HAS to be restored. It is just a desire of my (mother's) heart. Like in the Beetle's song: "The mother and Child reunion is just a moment away" ??

thanks.

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Old 06-24-2013, 04:38 PM
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I get what you're saying. But here's the thing--it's really like any other thing you wish for. Sure, I hope your son recovers to the point where he will want to make things right with you. And maybe by the time he gets there, you will feel safe enough to discuss it with him.

Look at it this way. Even if you were to ask him for that right now, you wouldn't get it, right? So it's something that will come in time, if it comes at all.

Let me tell you something that MIGHT ease your mom's heart a bit. The other night I went out to dinner with a former boss of mine, who also happened to be my closest friend in the office when we both worked there (she's about 10 years or so older than I am). Back when we worked together, she was absolutely heartbroken because her two oldest boys had definitively cut her out of their lives. She'd had a horrible divorce from an awful man--so far as I know there were no substance abuse issues, but he was a horrible, terrible person by all accounts. She was raising her youngest son, who was then a young teen. The father had completely turned the older boys (then in their 20s) against their mother. I remember her crying over it in the office on several occasions.

Today, she has wonderful, close relationships with all of her boys--including the older ones. She is included in their lives and families, she babysits their kids and has wonderful relationships with their wives, too.

It took time, it took growing up, it took seeing what the truth is.

So eventually your boys may very well come around, too. It's never hopeless. And if they are mature enough, and recovered enough, they may be more than grateful for a chance to put things right with you, regardless of whether it is a formal recovery step or not.
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