wicked

I hope it is with a dark sense of humor and a deep sense of cynicism.
That, I can understand.
I did not call my ex husband Mr. Hero, but I did a lot of fantasizing in that vein.

Metallic Thorn, we alcoholics manipulate as long as we are awake.
Does it matter if it is in the name of honesty? To me, it would not because you can
call it merde or you can call it sh!t, but they both stink as bad when thrown on you.
(I can thank my manipulative little sister for that one. )

Saying 15 days is no time at all (sober) is manipulation because for someone who has not gone 15 days without a drink for years it is a miracle.
Putting it down is a way he drinks, manipulates and pulls you into his pity party.
I am one, I was born to one, I married two and have two addicted children.

Wow! That sounds awful, but I live my life sober now.
What others do or say is none of my business.
(But still hard to sit by with my kids, I admit.)

I don't know who said listen to the little blue haired ladies,
but, it is true.
I am not blue haired and have only seen one white haired lady,
but we have all had our share of pain.

MetallicThorn,
Maybe I understand you more than I think.
Hmmm, that is something to think about.

But, I have to go to an appointment this morning.
Think about what you want from your life.
And, so will I.

Beth

Florence

So, here's what I'm getting at. And it would be helpful if you want functional feedback for you to confirm, deny, or elucidate on some of the facts about YOU and your family of origin, how old you are, and your life independent of prince charming. Who are you?

Like this statement I quoted above. Something we codependents (yes) frequently do is assign greater value to BASIC HUMAN DECENCY than is warranted. Honesty is not actually a higher plane -- it's a basic expectation of a functional adult. It's not that special.

That his "honesty" is used to cut you is an indicator that he's also pretty cavalier about your feelings and unkind about his delivery. Cavalier, unkind, cutting, not awesome.

This fetishization with being non judgemental. What's this about? Judgement is how we figure out who is good for us and who isn't. You don't have to like everyone or be liked by everyone. You don't have to approve of everyone's decisions and neither do they have to approve of yours.

There's also an element of control here that's raising all my codie flags. You want to convince him to see himself the way you see him. You want to help. You're afraid of judging him -- why? What happens when he doesn't see himself the way you determined appropriate? What if he doesn't want your help? When are you free to judge?

Javajoetoes

These are the kinda of things you tell yourself to avoid the heavy lifting of figuring out how you ended up in a dysfunctional relationship.

It's true!!!!!
I have been there......and some days or hours or minutes I go back because it's what I know.......but it's bulls**t.
But I also remember hating it when people would point this out to me so I have some empathy

What's the point in pretending?

DreamsofSerenity

Hi Metallica,

I have never responded to your posts because they trigger me, which made it hard to say anything compassionate or helpful to you. You seem to want honest feedback though (which is admirable) so I will chime in.

Like others said, there is something really upsetting about the way you glorify your alcoholic and your situation. I have been utterly devastated by an alcoholic, so to hear one referred to as Mr.Hero feels practically like an insult. To me, it's kind of a blatant disregard for the intense pain many of us on SR have experienced with our alcoholics.

Your posts read as almost condescending, like you think you are going to manage your situation through unconditional love and non-judgement while the rest of us have failed to do so. The rest of us have had to work VERY hard to accept the fact that unconditional love can not save an alcoholic. There are women on here who have had to face that tragic fact with their own children! We all love/loved our alcoholics just as much as you love yours.

It just feels like you lack humility in the face of this powerful disease, and also in front of the many survivors on this board. (I am not speaking of myself, I am a newbie.)

FireSprite

OP - I have refrained from posting on your threads for the same reasons DOS stated above. From the tone & language of your posts I don't feel like you are truly in a place where you can appreciate the ES&H I have to share.

This line is what I haven't been able to get past in your recent posts:

It's taken some work for me to not take a comment like this personally because to me it reads as though you are implying that the rest of us have somehow lost sight of the fact that the addicts in our lives are after all, human beings under a mask of disease. In fact, IMO, your way of thinking is what often perpetuates the cycle of abuse in a dysfunctional relationship.

In reality, many if not most of us have allowed ourselves to suffer longer, more deeply & made huge personal sacrifices BECAUSE we go on too long thinking & caring about the person & not the disease. We have, by & large, suffered emotionally, financially, professionally & so many other "ally's" in an effort to save the person we love. We are not lacking in empathy because we choose to put ourselves & our children ahead of the addicts in our lives.

He is binge drinking and then LAUGHING IN YOUR FACE about it later, and yet WE are the ones that lack understanding here? You claim inexperience and lack of knowledge in dealing with addicts yet poo-poo every bit of what the experienced members of this forum share with you & defend your A instead. You are entitled to handle your life however you choose, but don't be surprised when those here show little patience or tolerance for the circles you talk in your posts.

I agree that it may be time for you to examine the idea that your glasses may be just a bit rose-tinted. You will find amazing depths of knowledge, experience & support here if you do.

LexieCat

DoS,

Just hitting the "Thanks" button doesn't seem to be enough. Thank you for articulating so clearly my own reaction to these posts.

Metallic, DoS has hit it on the head, I think--why people on this Forum, and in Al-Anon, seem not to be "getting" where you are coming from. And it even comes off that way in the way you talk TO your alcoholic (Grizz's "hurl" factor). It comes off as condescending.

If everything is great as far as you are concerned, then you don't need us, or any other support group. If, however, things are less than wonderful in your little corner of existence, maybe you would do well to let go of some of your old ideas about the power of love, and what it can and cannot accomplish. Because, from long, hard, collective experience, we can tell you that you are letting yourself in for a lot of misery if you continue to approach the problem the way you have been. We are sharing our collective experience, strength, and hope with you, but all you seem to see is how we are "misunderstanding" you. We understand you better than you think--we've BEEN you.

So my own feeling is that as long as you are convinced your approach is the way to go, and that the rest of us simply don't "understand," you are not going to derive any real benefit from participating in this Forum or in Al-Anon. I am NOT telling you to go away. I am suggesting, STRONGLY, that you entertain the possibility that we know what we are talking about. You don't have to agree with everything we say, or do everything we suggest. Nobody is telling you to check your brains at the door. But maybe it's time to question your own assumptions a bit more.

Unless you consider yourself to have acquired all the knowledge you will ever need in your life, it's best to remain teachable.

MetallicThorn

Let me start by thanking each and every one of you for your responding. How amazing you all are for allowing me this space to be honest.

These are responses to your questions, comments and concerns. I also have some concerns added here.

Someone asked,"how old are you?"

22

That person raised another question,"Who are you?"

•A human being trying to become whole.

•I am a student using their life as a class to learn from those around me.

•A student on the path towards obtaining my degree in psychology.

•I am a soul trying to allow the truth of myself to express and manifest its-self.

•I am a believer in radical empathy so I can feel life deeply and continue to move forward.

•I am a person who see's the scared in the ordinary.

•A spiritual warrior learning to surrender to that higher power, (God, Universe).

•A vessel learning to allow God to move and breathe through me.

•A person letting my life be my legacy.

•I am a human being hoping to be of service.

Moreover, they asked,"You're afraid of judging him -- why?"

My definition of judgement is criticizing and questioning a person for their choices, notions, beliefs, mind frame and past transgressions instead of looking at their soul and intention as of today.

It's not that I'm afraid of judging him, it's simply that it goes against my convictions. I believe that a person's mistakes can help craft them into who they are currently and ultimately help lift, elevate and evolve them into human being they're meant to be. It's a way of cultivating those eternal qualities. What I know for sure is everything that happens to you is meant to teach you about yourself, your relationship with yourself and your relationship with God.

They're follow up question,"What happens when he doesn't see himself the way you determined appropriate?"

If that were to occur(which is a strong possibility) I would still look at him the same way but it would be disappointing to know he is(in my perspective) refusing to inhabit his humanity more fully. Then again, same could be said in vice versa. I don't see myself in that mirrored reflection he perceives me to be.

Then I'd have to allow him to relish in his own resiliency, regeneration and continuity. Moreover, I'd have to allow my innate nature to "fix" to become silent. I believe adulthood is here to address the unfinished business of childhood and therefore I'd have to let him address it.

Their last question,"When are you free to judge?"

Judging doesn't align with my intentions so I can't answer that accurately. That is something I strive towards not doing because I want my empathy to reign supreme. I've judged in the past and I still do at times but that's why I work towards cultivating those eternal qualities.

Mr. Hero doesn't judge me and I'm just as flawed as he is. That would be(in my perspective) hypocritical to do so. Critical thinking skill's, being decisive and and being analytical are total different in my perspective. It's about observation and picking a path. Not right, not wrong, just different.

A statement that was made,"Your posts read as almost condescending, like you think you are going to manage your situation through unconditional love and non-judgement while the rest of us have failed to do so."

I apologize deeply for giving anyone this perception of me and my post. This was not my intention and I'm sorry for this. I thought I was responding accordingly, appropriately and consciously. I am open to all perspectives and wisdom. This experience has revolutionized the way I see things.

It's become rather difficult for me to express myself eloquently and have my intention understood without extended detail. Surprisingly, I've never come across this before. By nature, I'm an innate writer yet my words seem to be failing me here. This is truly perplexing.

One of my concerns is Mr. Hero is being perceived as the enemy. I could roll off into a sonnet about his positives. I just don't want anyone to get the misconception he's a horrible human being, his disease is one facet to him; not all. As stated previously, this is a dynamic in our relationship but it is not the whole relationship.

Thank you all for hearing and acknowledging what I'm saying. As always all opinions are welcome.

fedup3

Metal, this is not school! You are not going to be tested at the end of the week on how you did or did not do. Stop looking through the window and step inside the room because sooner than later you will be forced to enter into this world called alcoholism and what it truly is.

Shining~Again

I read a lot but I also am having a hard time trying to understand your posts. Seems awfully full of jargon and the words "waxing poetic" come to mind.
I'm just wondering while your "perplexing" about the failure to communicate, being a innate write and all, maybe you should just dumb it down?
No - I'm not being sarcastic, really. Just trying to understand. The only thing that comes across clearly is that you're 22.

cheers

Florence

Metallic Thorn, I'm going to take a wild leap and ask if you are part of any activist or radical and/or social justice communities. If so, I get it, and if so, you will have to leave some of those convictions behind in order to make sense of this kind of abusive interpersonal relationship. Faith in the potential of human beings is super cool -- but when you're advocating for the health of yourself and your relationship and the other person is laughing in your face, your fears about being hypocritical or judgemental need to be ten or twenty places down your priority list.

Here's another thing I've learned: Intentions aren't behavior. Meaning well is different than doing well. And the convenient thing about having good intentions is that you're not required to commit to anything to have them. Think about that with yourself, and with mister right.

You say you're at peace, and okay sure, fine. Basically no one posts on this forum because they're totally cool with their partner's drinking.

Your latest post is heavy on flowers and philosophy and light on facts. I still don't know anything about you other than your age and that you're a student. I don't know anything about your partner except that he's the man for you, except for the 100% unresolved alcoholism issue.

In your psychology studies, what does the research say about women who commit to dysfunctional men at an early age? What is the treatment modality recommended for this kind of relationship? You will need to know this for yourself.

laurie6781

(((((Metal)))))

I second what Fed up wrote:

This is not a class you are taking, THIS IS YOUR LIFE! Time to let your hair down, and 'look at you', and not him. The only thing we can do is change our own actions and reactions to another and they in turn will change theirs to us. Unfortunately when done to a practicing alcoholic their 'manipulation' and 'emotional bombs' get worse for then they somehow perceive that they are losing their enabler. Even if the A is a good wage earner, the enabler is there to take their verbal/emotional abuse. The psychotherapy you are learning in school is not going to work on him. Why? Because he has shown by his actions that he is not ready yet!

There is a saying in AA and it is not in the Big Book:

We alcoholics do not get into relationships, WE TAKE HOSTAGES! and it is so so true!!

This is the place, as is Alanon, where you can let your hair down, and say damnit he hurt me, or damn it I am raging angry.

I will also suggest, that once you graduate and you become ready to hang out your 'shingle' please do not counsel alcoholics and/or addicts. Why? Because it really takes someone who has been where they are and has an EXCELLENT A+ '******** meter'!

Keep posting, letting us know how you are, as we do care very much!

Love and hugs,

Tuffgirl

You've made this clear in this thread so far. And interestingly enough, all that is being said about Mr. Hero is:

1. He is no hero
2. He is a drunk

This isn't judgment, this is fact. Sure, he has other facets to him. So does Charles Manson. But those other facets are a part of one person. And alcoholism is something he has FOR LIFE. I encourage you to spend time reading the alcoholism forum, attending open AA meetings, and talking with other long-time recovering alcoholics. This isn't something the love of a good woman will cure.

I also find it interesting that as a psych major, one who professes to study radical empathy, you aren't listening to what is being said. One of the tenets of radical empathy is the ability to listen completely. To absorb others' input. To internalize it. Yet you come across as very defensive about your choice to stay with this guy, and try very hard to explain your choice as if anyone here is expecting you to do so. We aren't. Neither was the woman from Al-Anon. She was simply stating a fact - see #1 & #2 above.

You are 22, and don't seem to grasp the decades of collective wisdom and experiences shared in this forum and in Al-Anon that clearly surpass your wisdom at such a young age. Again, that's not a judgment upon youth, its simply a fact.

And your writing, albeit definitely eloquent, is confusing and hard to follow, and has an air of condescension to it. I am not sure you realize this, as you are perplexed as to why you aren't communicating well on this board. This is why. Pay close attention to it. As a self-professed innate writer, if others are communicating to you your writing style is grating, confusing, hard to follow, or anything else along these lines - time to reevaluate your writing style, or nix a writing career all together. Take the feedback as an opportunity to make some positive changes, instead of using it as a platform for defensiveness and further eloquently stated justification.

Lastly, be careful with wanting to be of service and help others. In the field of psychology, human services, social work, sociology, healthcare, etc...any field that helps others, one must be ready to uphold strong personal boundaries. This guy you call Mr. Hero is a grown man who can make his own decisions about how to live his life. I imagine he doesn't care for your sobriety countdown, hence his snickering. As Grizz pointed out - it is emasculating to a man to be talked to that way.

You won't do your field any good by enmeshing yourself with others. Having radical empathy and being a spiritual warrior include respecting others and their differences, including different perspectives and different life choices.

grizz

Wow...what a bunch of psychobabble BS. I truelly hope that you take to heart some of the great advice the people in this family has given you...it is a gift. One day you are going to see that this mantra you are talking and all the psych speak is going to fall around you and you are going to be faced with the stark reality of what Alcoholism is. It is a monster, it is unforgiving, it is a consumer, it is a destroyer and the only way to get off the crazy train is for your Mr. Hero to get off by himself. If he doesnt, and you keep these rose colored glasses on, there will be nothing left except you wondering how all this could have happened. Please dont think that you are going to win over the monster. You are 22, my daughters age... and I have tears in my eyes as I undertand where this is going to lead you becuase I do understand your idealistic reasoning. But you are not going to win this unless Mr. Hero does it for himself. He will destroy you and everything in his path.


grizz

Recovering2

Dear Metallic, I read your posts and I am so sad for you. Your denial is palpable. I know you don't want to hear that, but you want honest opinions. And many of us were in your shoes at one time. We want our Mr Hero so badly that we'll do anything to keep that alive.

He's honest, unless he doesn't want to be. Then he withholds information. You see that as "appropriate" behavior. You have to notice the behavior and "push him into a corner" to get the truth. That is not normal adult behavior on either of your part. Pushing him into a corner to get the truth is enabling. There is no good end to enabling behaviors.

Your conversation struck me as very sad. He is snickering and unconcerned about your concerns. Is that being "logical"? I would say it is alcoholic narcissistic behavior.

I'm glad you have great days right now, because those days will become fewer and fewer if he doesn't get serious about real recovery. He explains his behavior to you very clearly, it's because he's an alcoholic. He is showing you who he is....believe him. The best way to help him is get out of his way, leave him to his path. Work on you instead of him.

owathu

I have to agree with this. I read quite a bit, perhaps 6-10 books a month and I am having a hard time comprehending your writing style. Your writing is very wordy but to me it isn't saying anything.

All of us here, every single one of us here saw the "human" inside of the alcoholic. Every single person who is responding to you loves, or loved their addicted person, and every one of us loved them "unconditionally'...Unconditional love is not the highest love. Love must have conditions. Loving unconditionally is not healthy in a partnership. I love my dogs unconditionally. I cannot love my husband unconditionally, and I should say, I can no longer love my husband unconditionally. I tried loving him unconditionally for almost a decade. It was a decade of humiliation, pain and losing. And trust me, the only thing that kept me around and probably a good portion of the people on here around was the person we saw inside. That person never showed up.

What everyone here is trying to say is that you are trying to make something, some grand love affair, soulmate relationship out of what is essentially a run of the mill co-dependent relationship. There is nothing more special about your alcoholic that we ALL didn't see within our alcoholics. We ALL saw that person inside, each and every one of us. We all wanted to love them sober. it doesn't work that way. They have to love themselves enough to want to be sober. You cannot love and patient them into being sober. And you need to start loving yourself enough to realize that you do deserve someone present and whole.

You're trying to buy a car without an engine right now, hoping that if you push it downhill that it will just start driving. It won't, because eventually the hill isn't there anymore and the engine is still missing. The engine is his will to stop drinking, RIGHT NOW. And who you are trying to love is right now not willing to quit drinking. Even for himself, much less for you.

Chickadees

Hi MT...

You've recieved a lot of valuable input from lots of folks who have far more ES&H to offer than me. I encourage you to take some time to let it percolate and perhaps take some time to read the stickies...they contain enormous amounts of collective wisdom.

I'm a relative newbie here too. I just read that you're 22, a student of psychology and seem to be trying out some 'ways of being' in the world. I wish you all the best on your personal and educational journey.

I have a combined honours degree in the social sciences and women's studies. I've been drawn to social justice causes my whole life. I've always been a fierce champion of underdogs of all sorts, both individuals and groups. My career is in the realm of social justice and by all counts, I've been quite successful.

In short, I'm a 'codie' by profession. I'm telling you this as a cautionary tale. I believe that I'm majorly pre-disposed towards co-dependant relationships and that it's no coincidence that I do what I do professionally. It's taken me a LONG time to come to this realization (I'm 47).

I'm not nor have I ever been a religious or even spiritual person. Nonetheless, just recently I've come to believe that the relationship I had with my AFWB (the reason I'm here at SR, see my previous posts) is the universe's way of trying yet again to nudge me towards a deeper understanding of myself and the relationship choices I've made. Of course, the universe can only do so much... and finally, I think I'm starting to get it.

This was supposed to be a short, succinct post... oh well. And I hope I made some kind of sense to you. Again, I encourage you to hang around, make a pot of tea and do some reading and reflecting. There is a huge amount of individual and collective wisdom here for you if you chose to hear it.

good roads MT,
Chick

Shining~Again

I got the PM just now and I've gotta say, I DO hope you can get real about things.
I have a feeling this was a mass sent item and I'm going to wish you well and take off regarding this....as it has a sense of not being real.
I sincerely do not mean offense- but I've worked very hard on my own stuff to notice when something seem very off and speak up.

cheers!

LexieCat

I believe quite a number of us got PMs.

MetallicThorn

I must admit, I quite curious about something's that have been raised.

I've done my best to answer everyone's question, comment and concern yet I think I'm still in the same position as when I first began this conversation on SR.

I think I'll make a serious of questions in bulletin style that I'd like some elaboration on.

•What is it specifically you'd like to know about me that I haven't made clear?

•What is it specifically you like to know about Mr. Hero that I haven't made clear?

•What is bothersome about the notion of me using my life as a class so that I can continue to learn from everyone I meet?

•Why is my poised demeanor perceived as frustrating but if I were to be angry or frantic that would be understandable?

•How is my integrity and openness to explain experienced as defensiveness?

•Why is it that even though I'm open to everyone else's perspective, most are close-minded to mine?

•How is my language coming off condescending when I believe I'm being appropriate and fair?

•Why are my thoughts and notions being deemed "psychobabble BS" when I've never dismissed anyone else's thoughts and notions?

•Why do people feel "sad" for me and believe I'm in "denial" when I've made it self-evident I'm conscious of the situation?

Thank for your time and responses.
These questions are poised so that I can become aware of where I lack understanding.

owathu

All of these questions have been answered. I feel like we are speaking but you cannot hear what we are saying.

I feel that we are just speaking another language than you are. You are us, just more verbose, when we first started dating the people who brought us here. Through a lot of trial and tons of error, all of us, each and every one, came to the same conclusion...you cannot love someone out of an addiction.

I feel that what you have been writing is just that. That, you, specifically you, if you are patient, understanding, kind, empathatic and loving enough, you alone can help him beat his addiction. We are saying, you are wrong, you cannot do that. The only person who can is Mr. Hero, and he is laughing at you. He thinks it's funny. Do you not see that?

I have had much much deeper conversations with my STXAH about his drinking, and never once has he giggled about being drunk. He wants to get sober, just not enough. Even when they WANT it themselves, sometimes that's not even enough. You can't love cancer away, just like you can't love alcoholism away. The patient has to want to get treatment. Period. When the patient is laughing at their disease, they do not want treatment.


I suggest, since you are so hard headed, you continue on your path of empathetically loving his disease away and then come back in a year and tell us how it went. We all are psychics, we already know your future.