minnie

Good idea.

1. No shouting. If we can't have a sensible, quiet discussion, then we won't have one at all.

2. No hidden bottles. I refuse to have HIS problem in my face when I am going about MY business.

3. I will exercise my response-ability. i.e. I can choose how I respond to a situation and take my time to do it, rather than going with my emotion in the heat of the moment.

I've loads more, just can't put them into words at the moment. Will post back when I can.

mountaingirl

Wow, can I have yours! I will work on my list too.
Thanks!

minnie

Course you can have mine!! Isn't that what these boards are all about?

I've got very tough over the past couple of years, so much so that I get accused of being an Ice Queen by my A b/f. Maybe I need to start swinging back the other way a bit now. But only within a framework that I am comfortable with. The only reason he's not comfortable is that he has never had a framework before. Well, if he can't get one of his own, he can use mine instead!

mountaingirl

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. They need their own boundaries. My husband drank heavily for so long he doesn't understand his own emotions. He just drank them. Now that he has a chance to feel, it's been a whole new ballgame. When I ask him what he wants from me he honestly doesn't know. He doesn't know how to want because he is so wrapped up in need.

whiplash

Yeesh, life with a dry drunk! My husband is sober (I think -- we're living in separate places for work right now), but all the anger and weird behavoir from before AA has surfaced since he quit going to meetings. I swear he has spent nearly a year trying to convince me that he's cured. As part of my boundaries, I'm just not having the conversation anymore. So there. He knows my limits and his drinking was a problem for me, hence a problem in our relationship. Instead of getting into a horrible, never-ending argument with him about it (like the old days), I'm not going there!

Wow, I think I might actually be getting a little better....

minnie

I think getting over this "need" thing is key. I've very recently learnt to really back off and let him make his own decisions. I don't mean about drink necessarily, but things that are really his realm to deal with i.e. arrangements for his son to come and visit us. He feels needy because, as you say, he hasn't experienced emotion for a long time, but also I've realised that I have not let him learn that he CAN make decisions and feel good about them when they come right.

mountaingirl

ooo, Good point! Giving him the opportunity to learn what are his choices and decisions will teach him how to build his own life again. Cool! I think I will try that too.
One thing I gave completely over to my husband was the responsibility of his cans. Sounds stupid, but the paraphernalia (sp?) wrapped up in his habit was something else he would refuse to see. He would stock pile the cans in bags and never take them to the dump. I found where they all were once and I was horrified. I used to think if I take them to be recycled, he will KNOW that I did that (notice them gone) and feel guilty. And guilt will drive him to stop...but that didn't work at all. Because he could feel guilt and just put it aside easily. He's different from me in that way, and many others.
So I told him his cans were his job now. Recently, since he's been drinking lemon seltzer instead, he had a garbage bag full of those kinds of cans in his office, and he made a point of showing me. He was so proud it wasn't beer cans. Well, he still isn't taking them to the recycle bin, but I have hope. They will stay there until he can't find his desk, I'm not moving the cans!

minnie

Oohh, the empties. Yes, that gets (should say "got") on my nerves too. Before my parents came to visit last week, I made him "sanitise" the house, garden etc. He has come on leaps and bounds recently, but now knows that there are to be no bottles or empties around and if I come across any, he can't do the "but they're from ages ago" trick. It's up to him if he drinks when he's away from the house, I can't do anything about it, but at least I know that it's not in my face all the time.

Isn't it up to them to clear away their mess? If I left stuff all over the place, he'd be the first to complain.

mountaingirl

Love it.
Especially at that time of the month LOL. God, if I didn't pick up after myself, he'd have a fit.

minnie

One thing that I/we are working on at the moment is that the "one rule for me, another rule for you" thing has to stop. It helps that my b/f is getting counselling at the moment and I think that she challenges him in the same way as I do, but because she's a professional and getting paid for it, he listens to her. Once upon a time that would have upset me, but now I'm not bothered as long as he is "getting it".

mountaingirl

That is fabulous, your b/f is lucky to have you.

minnie

Thank you, that's really good to hear.

I love him very much and if I can just get beyond the last remnants of the trust thing and he keeps on with his healing, everything will be just fine. I've never felt that way before, and these forums have been instrumental in getting me there. Early days yet, but I would hope that we can finally start arranging our wedding sooner rather than later. We got engaged last year when he was on one of his "I promise I won't let you down" trips and I fell for it hook, line and sinker. Doh! But he knows that I won't walk down the aisle with a drunk or a liar, so it is in his hands.

mountaingirl

You are wise.

You said: he knows that I won't walk down the aisle with a drunk or a liar, so it is in his hands.
I'll hold you to that!

minnie

Please do!

Having read so many messages from spouses who have put up with rubbish for years, i know that I owe it to myself not to be fooled. Equally, though, this is the first time in his life that he has faced up to facts and reached out for help, and I believe I should support him for now. If in the future he finds it too difficult, then I know I've given it my best shot and can walk away with my esteem intact.

mountaingirl

That's a good way to live. It's taken me fourty years to learn how to live without regrets. Something tells me you're ahead of the game!
When I was deciding to marry, I took it very seriously too. I'm sure everyone does. I had the basics: love eachother, strong character, good family, funny, cute - etc. But what really mattered to me in looking at who he was: the things that won't change.
My mother used to say, see him as he is. It only gets worse! And at the time (I was 23) I thought she was just being cynical. We can afford to be blithering optimists before we have children.
But I've since learned that what my mother meant was that what you see in him will be magnified, intensified. And after 17 years together, I can absolutely attest to that. Both of us are the core people we were - times a million!
Does that scare you or encourage you? Hmmm. What a question!

minnie

Can I come back to you on that one?!

mountaingirl

Take your time! And I mean it!

vikster

Trust is the real stickler for me. I have always believed that trust is at the foundation of a relationship and, of course, with an A, it isn't there. My A is very recently into recovery (11 days), but he is, for right now, totally in to it. Our conversations revolve around his recovery. I'm not complaining because I'd much rather have him obsess about recovery than using, but I recognize how my feelings are still generally much less important to him in our conversations. He just has his hands full trying to understand his emotions let alone mine. But he is trying to rebuild some trust...he's not without recognition of how he has killed it. In his recent 2-week binge (which, thankfully, he is seeing as rock bottom), he went to Amsterdam, the nirvana of drugs and prostitution. I have never doubted his faithfullness to me -- I don't believe that is is one of his problems -- but he had days of blackouts and an addiction therapist suggested that I not have sex unprotected with him until he was cleared through AIDS tests. Wow, did that floor me! My heart says that he would never have done anything, but my head says anything was possible in a blackout. He has agreed to the testing and practicing safe sex. But he is clearly angry and hurt that I doubt him. It will be a long struggle since the incubation period for AIDS is long.

I'm trying to hold on to a "just for today" philosophy. Every good day in which he is into his recovery and not doing something to break my trust is a blessing. And every day that I feel at least some sanity is fabulous! And only time (much time!) will heal the deep wounds if they are to be healed.

mountaingirl

Vickster,
Good for you. Glad you are being safe. You are right, anything is possible in a blackout. Infact from the minute intoxication begins, what a person would or wouldn't do changes. How else can we explain the behaviors we've seen? I've stopped saying "He would never..." to myself because it just keeps me blind to the truth.
Maya Angelou says, "When people show you who they are, believe them."
With the alcoholic, we can all say it's the alcohol talking, yelling, etc. But in reality, until the alcohol no longer has the person, its him talking.

vikster

Thanks Mountaingirl for reinforcing that I'm not just being melodramatic. I know I'm not, but there are moments of self doubt. In fact, I seem to have a whole lot of strange debates with myself these days! I think that is a good thing...it is my internal battle for change in myself. Or I'm going crazy...time will tell. LOL