Crazed

As stated by another member in a separate thread regarding a recent negative situation in my life:

This comment really triggers something that I have been thinking about, actually since an AlAnon meeting on Wednesday night. It is what I needed to read to push me to start this thread.

In reading many of the stories here with accounts of alcoholic behavior, I have learned a lot. I have learned that alcoholics can be emotionally unavailable, and neglect the needs of their spouses. They can be verbally abusive, saying terrible emotionally hurtful things. They create an overbearing and controlling environment in which the codependent cannot thrive, and become uncomfortable in their own skin. The codependent is afraid to do or say things wrong, for fear of setting off the alcoholic. They constantly walk on eggshells.

In reading things like this, and thinking to the past, I get really sad and scared. Scared because this doesn't describe her and her actions, it describes me.

Several months ago, I wrote a timeline of all the terrible things my EXAG did to me. It is a 13 year compilation of some horrible things. Perhaps it would be helpful for me to write another list- of the things I did to her.

Today I will not beat myself up. But I will not bury my head in the sand regarding myself. I will not blame her for everything. I did contribute to her low self worth, her craziness, and her alcoholism.

Perhaps when I take MYSELF down from the pedestal I will figure it all out.

Crazed

FYI-

"My mother once told me to treat my spouse like I would want my daughters to be treated." This was stated by a guy in AlAnon on Wed.

I can't get this thought out of my head, because I know I didn't. Alcoholism or not.

LaTeeDa

You make a very good point. I know that one of the personality traits I acquired growing up in a dysfunctional home was perfectionism. I used to think that it was a good trait to have, and in many ways, it was. But, it took me a long time to see the downside. My expectations of myself were unrealistic and that in turn, made me feel like a failure.

Once I learned to accept myself as a flawed human being, and be okay with that, I found I was much more forgiving of others, too. It also helped me to let go of the magical, fairy-tale thinking I had hung on to for most of my life and learn to live in the sometimes messy, but still beautiful, reality that is human life.

So yes, you are right. Nobody should be on a pedestal. Not ourselves, not our loved ones, not our imaginary "soulmate," not anyone. We're all just fallible humans trying to live out our limited time on this planet in the best ways we know how.

L

Tuffgirl

Thanks for this, LTD. I too learned this the painful way. The more out-of-control my life became, the more hostile and resentful I was - and it was mostly directed at the A in my life.

Crazed, we all do the best we can with what we have at the moment. Yes, you behaved poorly at times, as did she. The trick in healthy relationships is how you deal with those moments, because I think LTD's point about life being messy is spot on.

Newlook3

Crazed, I too am out of a 13 year relationship and for a long time blamed him for all that was wrong. Only now Im out of it can I see the part I played in making him feel just as unloved as I did but I never took responsibility for it, just blamed everything on his drinking, moods, jealousy etc but I was also very controlling, on his back constantly so to speak, and withdrew physical intimacy when he had been drinking, which was often. I can see it wasn't a healthy relationship but I still miss him terribly and am struggling to "get a grip"

BlueSkies1

Crazed, I understand. I did all of those things. He did all of those things too, in my relationship.
I think the longer we are at stalemate in a relationship, much like a chess game, the crazier everybody gets. Power plays, manipulation, intimidation, you name it, every tactic imaginable and available comes to mind as ways to try to let the other person know that what is going on is unacceptable.
What I see in you in this post though, is admission of your faults, and that's a great thing. Too often on this board we are pointing our finger at the drinker.
Maybe she didn't do those things, but she did other things that led to you doing those things, and which came first the chicken or the egg is immeshed in each of our individual stories. But who started it is childish thinking, so we have to get to that point that we look at how we erred, and get past "who started it".
I think the more we spent pointing the finger at our part in the dysfunction, at looking in the mirror, the better we have become. So I see this post of yours as recognizing your errors, and that is truly progress over spending months or years here simply writing about the errors of the other party. There's rarely black and white stories here. There is surely a few (namely severe abuse).
I love your thread. It is doing what we should be doing here--looking at our contribution and not just pointing a finger at the drinker.

Most importantly, I think it means that you are truly getting better. Kudos to you!

dandylion

Dear Crazed, it is possible for two dysfunctional people to hook up together---they kind of do a "dance" with each other. (completely aside from alcoholism)

It is also possible for two co-dependents to hook up together. Melody Beattie covers this in her book. They can REALLY compete with driving each other crazy.

We all have to be cognizant of what we contribute to the relationships in our life.

I am glad that you know not to beat yourself too much.

dandylion

Hammer

Best version I have heard of this towards this world is -- Work Your Program (that is in the HERE and NOW) like you would like him/her to be Working Theirs.

If you get there, you will not be worrying so much about who did what and when, and where to assign guilt, blame and all the rest you seem a bit stuck and obsessed about.

Always Amends ahead -- when you get there.

Crazed

Thank you all for your comments. This has been a learning experience for me. I haven't really been "alone" for many years. Before we were together, I had a strong network of friends, a very active social life, girlfriends, etc. But for the past many months, I have been alone. I work out of my house (when not traveling, which lately has been minimal), and when I am done for the day, I am still at my house. For several months, it was truly agony. But I believe it is now helping me learn about myself. And my travel is now getting back on track, so that will be helpful.

In no way are my comments in this thread meant to blame shift away from my EXAG's actions. She did horrible, hurtful things. But honestly, I have been getting really sick of people lately telling me what a great guy I am, I deserve better, I was so good to her, etc. What I really need to hear sometimes is, "You Know, that time we were out together at XYZ. You were a ***** to her. Your condescending attitude, and the way you were cutting her off to get the spotlight back on you was pretty bad," etc etc

Sometimes the truth hurts, but is necessary for growth.

dandylion

Dear crazed------YOU ARE IMPERFECT!!!

DANDYLION

dandylion

Now. Does that feel better?

Crazed

I am thinking that some curse words might be a bit better, but hey, good enough!

Thanks

lillamy

Boy does that ever hit home, Crazed.

Yes. My AXH was abusive. In many ways.
But just like you, I've come to realize that I was not perfect either.
Did I deserve to be abused because I wasn't?
No.
Absolutely not.
Nothing ever warrants being abusive to or treating another human being with disrespect.
But I took his abuse as an excuse for me to treat him with disrespect.

A pastor I talked to once said "I am sorry to say I don't think your marriage can be saved. And it's not because your husband has an addiction problem. It is because you see yourself as morally superior to him. Addictions do sometimes get turned around. But I don't see you accepting him as a human being on the same level as you any time soon."

It didn't even sting. That's how true I knew it was.

So -- yes. You've probably been an arse to her. Just like I was an arse to my AXH. My AXH has been very helpful in pointing out the ways I was -- and I still think he missed a few.

I think the best service we can do ourselves it to -- gently, when we are ready -- admit our shortcomings. Our nastiness. Our control issues. Or whatever it is. It's easier to be angry and hate what the addict turned us into. But it's not going to help smooth the path ahead. And that's where I'm going. Forward. I can't change the choices I have made. I can look at them -- as I am capable to -- and say to myself "this, I can change."

You are raw and vulnerable and in pain. That is so obvious. I wish for you that you not beat yourself up. Realizing we're not perfect is a great beginning. We don't have to flagellate ourselves until we bleed immediately. I think of imperfections as things that need to be sanded off slowly, with time, rather than chopped off with a chainsaw. At least when it comes to my own imperfections.

Be good to yourself.

wicked

Why, I think there is a program for that!
the name of it is on the tip of my tongue,
has something to do with 12 steps?

Oh, how I make myself laugh!


It's okay to be wrong, admit it, then move on. I like this program.

Beth

PS
Crazed, Perhaps you are learning, but I know I am learning. Thank you for this thread.

Ponder

Wow.. this hit me on the back of the head. I see myself thinking the same way sometimes. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Crazed

Lillamy- your response is very fitting for me as well. As much as I say that I can overcome and accept the disease, and all of the past hurts, there is that perception issue that your pastor hit on. And this is what I need to work on myself for. Whether I am with an alcoholic or not.

..... I did know it. And now I am seeing it so much more clearly, and the extent of it. And I am realizing it was not all her fault.

Fathom

Ah, now... You see, I think respect and trust are earned. And, they can both be lost. I remember the moment i realized my marriage was heading in a bad direction. It was the first time I muttered "F-ing Idiot!" under my breath referring to my AH... and I meant it! I mean, i REALLY meant it! He had completely lost my respect at that point. And, your pastor is right that I put myself on higher moral ground at that point. Was that wrong? I don't think so. Does that mean I think I'm perfect? No, but I know that I don't deserve the kind of treatment he was dishing out to me! He lost my respect (and trust) because of his drunken abusive actions. That was a direct consequence of his addiction! So, while I agree that my disdain of my husband ultimately led to the failure of the marriage, I find it completely disingenuous to say that his addiction had nothing to do with it. In fact, I find that comment rather irritating actually.

I understand the need to address and acknowledge our own role in the chaos of our alcoholic relationships. There are some of my behaviors that I am not proud of, but for the most part I don't think I did wrong by him. The behaviors I am most ashamed of were examples of me doing wrong by me. I am working on not letting that happen again.

Peace,
Fathom

lillamy

I don't for a second minimize my AXH's actions, either in the alcoholism or the abuse department.

What I'm doing is trying to figure out what in my reactions and actions were counterproductive to my life and health. Because I'm responsible for the rest of my life.

If I had been capable of healthier reactions in my first marriage, I would have left earlier and my children and I would have suffered less abuse. I'm not beating myself up about it. I'm wanting to make sure I never put us in a situation like that again.

Trust is earned. Definitely. I was right in not trusting my AXH. But in placing myself above him morally, I treated him like a child who didn't know better. I let him off the hook. If I had seen him as a human being with equal opportunity to make morally right choices, I would not have given him a pass.

Fathom

I totally get where you are coming from, Lillamy. I gave my XAH a pass for ten years on his cr@p. I'm not really sure why though. In my case, I think it's because I actually had too much respect for him. I weighted his opinions far greater than my own for many years. I cringe now when I remember spouting his quackery at my friends and family, giving them ridiculous excuses for some of our odd behavior or beliefs. Why did I absorb his belief system when it was so much at odds with my own at times? I don't know. Denial is a powerful thing.

In other ways though, I did treat him like a child. He was completely dependent on me to feed him, for example. And, that brought out the mothering in me. It ended up being a disservice to both of us. I am now hyper vigilant that I treat all adults as adults, who are capable of taking on the responsibilities of their own lives. This, I agree, can be a challenge, particularly when you recognize some perceived deficiency in the other person (i.e. morally, mentally, or physically). I understand that that judgment of the other is probably what your pastor was referring to as unhealthy to the marriage. However, I think that by the time I started judging, the damage to the marriage had already been done. I was just becoming more aware of it.

Thanks for this discussion, Crazed & Lillamy. You've given me a lot to contemplate...

Fathom

SoloJohn

I know where you are coming from, Crazed. I have beat myself up so much over my situation. Truth be told, there is blame on both sides when it comes to a break-up. But when alcohol is thrown in, the scales are tipped. There's a lot of what-ifs involved. In my case we were both drinkers before we met. I just stopped mine, when it was apparent is was leading me down a bad road. She didn't, and hers escalated. While I know I dished out a lot , nothing like what I received. The best we can do is to recognize our failings, and work to improve. What else can we do? Try not to regret too much, that's what I keep telling myself at least.