lizatola

So, I finally realized that I truly was trying to get bread at the hardware store. You all told me that was the case, I knew it deep down too. I'm finally coming to grips with the fact that my AH and I will always have a relationship that will not have deep sharing of emotions, feelings, faith, etc. My AH had told me in marriage counseling that he shuts down or gets angry when I share deep stuff such as my pain, emotions, hurt, etc. Yet I didn't listen to him.

Every time I try to make my voice heard, I get shut down in one form or another. It's taken me all this time to realize that I truly was looking for bread at the hardware store. DUH! Now, my question is: can I live peaceably like this? Will this marriage really fulfill me for the rest of my life, even if he finds recovery and makes some changes? I guess my answer is that I'm still taking things one day at a time. I'm also really working on acceptance. I still was fighting the fact that my AH lies. Period. He just does, he lies to me, to our son, to the cops, to the judge most recently, etc. It's part of who he is, and I need to learn to accept it, or move on. DUH. Yes, another lightbulb went off in my head.

For now, AH is making good changes and is amiable and things are actually OK(not great, but OK and I see glimpses of who I married those many years ago). The catch is that I have to avoid touchy subjects and relationship issues, drinking related topics, etc. Maybe that won't be the case forever, maybe it will be. Back to taking things one day at a time. Anyway, I just wanted to share that I finally think that the bread at the hardware store thing is finally sinking in! I'm a slow learner!

wicked

How can one fight with a fact?
Seems to be a special waste of time.
You are willing to accept his lying as part of his personality?

Oh yes, and avoid all issues that have to do with your life together.

That is what life was like for me too.
I will pray to my HP for guidance and peace.
How old is your son, Lizatola?

LoveMeNow

When I accepted why I was staying in an unhealthy marriage, I began to change and grow.

I was afraid, I wasn't confident enough, I was comfortable being the martyr, I wanted him to make me happy and I wanted to blame him for everything that wrong in my life. I, also, wanted the finically security because I didn't think I could make it on my own, at least, not in lifestyle I had become "accustomed" too. And I believed I was too old to start over.

I was a prisoner because of limitations I created in my head.

LexieCat

"Accepting it" and "moving on" are not mutually exclusive, you know. "Accepting" does NOT mean it's OK, or that you have to live with it. It merely means facing reality rather than making excuses for what he is doing, or somehow twisting it around so it is your fault, or pretending it isn't there. Now, having ACCEPTED the reality, you still have the choice of continuing to subject yourself to it, or moving on. Yeesh! So as long as you continue to walk on eggshells, it's OK? As long as you sacrifice your right to free speech and monitor yourself constantly so you don't upset him? Sounds like a pretty stressful way to live!

No doubt there were many slaves during the time of slavery who felt it "wasn't so bad" as long as they kept the master happy and didn't rock the boat. I would suggest that having a "not so bad" life is pretty pale in comparison to being free, to being a real partner in a relationship.

I'm not sure why you think you want to settle for this.

ShootingStar1

Lexicat makes a very good point. Accepting the truth of who your AH is, is not making a choice about whether you want to stay with him or leave him.

It is a very important step in facing the reality - for better or worse- about what your life is like living with him. I think we all have to get to the point of being brutally honest with ourselves about what is really going on with our partners before we can make grounded decisions about ourselves and our future.

So, this current step is accepting your AH for who he truly is NOW. This may be who he will always be. And, if his alcoholism progresses, this may be the best he'll ever be.

I think the next step is putting him totally aside in your thinking. So far that you pretend he doesn't even exist.

Then, what do YOU want for you? Who do you want to be? How do you want to live? What would true freedom mean to you?

And then, what relationships, living conditions, environment would support your freedom to be who you want?

And for your son, too.

These are very hard questions, and for me, they broke apart the way I had been thinking for many years. You're doing this with courage, and it will take as long as you need. With you all the way,

ShootingStar1

catlovermi

Liz,

Don't let people push you around with what they think you should do. This is your journey, your process - you own it.

Your whole journey is about this very issue.

I see your posts reflect process, growth, and new insights. There is movement.

You're doing great, making steady progress, at your own pace.

CLMI

lizatola

As long as it's taken for me to find acceptance (and I'm probably still working on that), I know it will take time for me to decide what I want to do or what I want for me.

For now, my AH is making an attempt to right his wrongs, he's admitted to his selfish behaviors, he's made a verbal commitment to see our marriage work, and he's being agreeable and helpful in general. His change is going to take time, so for now, I am giving him that time knowing full well what is at risk here. Just recently I found out he lied to the judge during his phone hearing for his extra interlock time, but the courts saw right through him and gave him the extra time anyway. It's not that I'm overlooking his behavior, it's that I'm accepting that that's who he is. I now have to sift through what I see are his current changes and attempts to reconnect, and through the past lies and broken promises, etc. And, then I have to decide what I will do if he drinks again, lies again, etc. I'm seriously thick headed and naive when it comes to relationship stuff and it's been a real work in progress for me to start taking responsibility for myself emotionally and spiritually.

Tuffgirl

Liz, with all due respect, this above^^^ aside from the alcoholism and lies stuff, this above seems to be an unrealistic expectation from a man in my book.

I just don't think men need this from women, nor do they feel comfortable with it (and I am generalizing here, its not all men, its men in general). And its not that they don't have deep feelings, its just the expression and sharing part, the need for a deep emotional connection, is different for men than it is for women.

Again, another generalization, but men connect in ways that are more physical. And yes, I do mean sex here, but also in affection and action and such.

Think about it - or even watch young kids playing. The boys are physical, the girls are conversing and bonding, usually in groups. Young boys who like girls will be physical with them; pushing, teasing, maybe even playfully hitting.

Men have been providers since the dawn of time. Women are the nurturers. Action vs. emotion. Men are hardwired to notice things in order to be a provider (action), while women are hardwired to be intuitive (to take care of children). Men are hardwired to procreate as much as possible (spread the DNA, so to speak) while women's natural instincts are to bond with their mates to ensure the successful rearing of the offspring. See where I am going with this? None of this is bad - it just is. We can fight it, or we can accept that much of this is simply biology of human beings and find ways to make it work for us in the 21st century.

Going to the hardware store for bread can also mean women expecting to get the emotional support from men like they do from other women. I go to men for "kick in the pants" advice only. I seek the deeper mulling and sharing from my girlfriends.

LoveMeNow

I agree tuffgirl, for a lot men this is true. The confusing part for most woman is that in the early stages of a relationship, men seem capable of having a deep meaningful connection. As the relationship changes, we still want that man back and doing everything in power (nice or not) to try and get him to be "that man" again.

Through counseling, my husband and I learning how to communicate better. Sometimes he is "that guy" and other times he nicely asks me if I could find a girl friend to discuss it with. In the old days, that would not have been ok with me. Today, I can really appreciate and respect his honesty and limitations as he is still in early recovery as well.

SparkleKitty

In general I agree with the distinction between men and women and the need to share to deep feelings, but it sounds to me like the OP's issue with is not that he doesn't share himself but that he "gets angry and shuts down" whenever she opens up in a way that is important to her.

There are more mature ways of dealing with it for sure. And I think in general, men who are emotionally healthy find better ways to do so. I can accept it if my husband doesn't 'get' the depth of my feeling, but not if he gets angry at me for expressing it. That is B.S.

lizatola

And, yes you just hit the nail on the head. I know that men are different from women. Unfortunately, if I tell my husband that I'm missing my father and need a hug from him (like I did a few months ago) and he says, "So what? What the hell are you missing that asshat for anyway?" that pretty much makes not want a hug and makes me want to shy away from trying to be physical with him at all.

If I tell him he hurt my feelings with something he said, he'll tell me to toughen up, I'm too sensitive, I take everything the wrong way and that's not his problem, etc. Or, and this is the killer of our conversations, he takes on my pain or frustration and starts griping about how bad his life is and how bad everyone treats him so that's why he treats me badly. His life sucks, bring on the comet, etc and then I sit there and listen to his victim rant for an hour when all I wanted was some validation for having an emotional need or hurt.

So, when I say 'bread from the hardware store', I mean that I've finally accepted that my husband can't handle any conversation about feelings or pain or hurt, even if it's not about him. I can't expect him to sympathize with me, I can't expect him to understand, I can't expect him to have empathy because he truly does not know how to do those things. When I ask for a hug, he'll give it but he'll look at me like I'm crazy.

Remember when my son didn't want to tell AH about his friend's death? His reason was that dad would say "good". Even my son knows that AH can't handle emotional pain, his or anyone else's for that matter. So, I feel like I'm going in circles here and I guess I'll close, but for me, it's not just about the basic differences between men and women, it's about HOW my AH chooses to communicate with his family and how he has grown to be emotionally unavailable.

It was such an issue for us for many years that I had completely shut down on him emotionally. He used to call me his wife, the guy. He said I was just like one of the guys and that's because I shut down my need for emotional validation because it was always about him and how miserable his life was. I think I subconsciously just shut it all down. I was a robot, going through the motions of life, giving him what he wanted, listened to his rants about everything and anything, and then shoved it all deep inside.

He says he wants a real marriage, he is working on changing, but that means I have to change, too. And, that means that I have to accept what his limitations are not just because he's a guy, but because he has serious arrested development and can't relate to most of humanity on an emotional level. He truly just doesn't understand it and I don't know if he ever will.

AlcoholicLove

Is he still drinking or has he stopped? I can't remember, sorry..
While it is admirable that he "making good changes" please don't get your hopes up yet.

My A just got his 1 year chip (again) is working and making great money again, eating well, looking good physically, sounding good mentally-I keep thinking the longest he didn't drink was only 5 years.
It's really all a crapshoot, a day to day struggle and I can't help wondering when the shoe will drop again-luckily I don't live with him and have my own home, so it's easier for me to walk away if/when it happens again.
You're an intelligent woman, you'll figure out what is best for you and your son.....

Tuffgirl

Well, now you are describing someone who has no ability to empathize. That is a trait common to addicts. And it shows a low maturity level, as well.

He may never "get it".

Or maybe he needs time to learn it, because this kind of maturity is learned through life's lessons. Addicts tend to be too numb to learn those life lessons so they are often far less mature than their peers.

Try "The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. Might help you both understand the others' needs better.

lizatola

Thanks! I agree, he may need time or he may never get it, LOL. I have read the 5 Love Languages and I know his language. Not sure if he remembers mine? Anyway, his mother had similar issues with her husband and she told me that she felt that my father in law was just not capable of empathy or compassion. They both were alcoholics, by the way, except my mother in law was the angry plate throwing drunk and my father in law was the passive sit in the chair leave me alone to drink drunk. Both seriously angry, passive aggressive, mean, withheld love and affection from the children, used the children in many ways against each other, etc. Extremely dysfunctional childhood where AH's childhood makes mine look like a bed of roses to some degree.

Before my mother in law passed on in January we had had a conversation where I told her some of what was going on. I mentioned nothing about the drinking or the DUI, she still thought AH was dry. She was concerned about some things my AH had said about his relationship with our son and commented that she was concerned for me and for the boy. So, I spilled a bit of what was going on in marriage counseling, etc. She said it sounded exactly like what she went through with my father in law. She told me that numerous therapists told her, "Kitty, he's not capable of changing, he doesn't have the motivation from within to want to get better. This is as good as it's going to get." Her last words to me, about 9 days before she passed suddenly, were, "Liz, he's not going to change. Do yourself a favor, and move on." I swear, when I found out she died a few days later, I was in shock and all I heard were her words to me. I haven't told AH what she said to me, nor do I intend to. It just was very eye opening to hear her talk about the things she went through and to see that my AH was just like his father in many ways(not all, by the way, because I think my AH does a much better job in being present when I need him to and contributes more than his dad did around the house, too).

ShootingStar1

I think there are layers of different emotional processing. Sure, lots of men are not as apt to deal as openly and directly about deep emotions as many women do. That doesn't mean they don't feel them; they do, and they empathize, just express it differently.

Then there are alcoholics who may have been normal human beings with the ability to feel and relate and genuinely care about their partner. But the disease of alcohol re-directs their focus as it progresses, and more and more, they can only think of how to get their next drink, no matter what the cost to anyone else. And that whole cycle of damaging others makes them feel guilty, and they can't - don't intend to stop because they want more booze, so they can't bear to hear about the pain they've caused and they disappear more and more emotionally.

Then there is the level of emotional dysfunction that you are talking about, Liz, and it is at the bedrock of personality and defines who the person is as well as the limits to who they are likely to become. They are not wired properly and, from my research and experience, there is little way to fix it. When you add alcoholism to this, it is a double whammy.

ShootingStar1

lizatola

ShootingStar, that's pretty much what I've been thinking. I've been reading books on personality disorders and such and so much of it fits to a T. One thing my AH asked me recently was about how he always apologized for his bad treatment of us like when he'd explode or get angry out of nowhere, etc. He said, "I always apologize." And, I was quick to point out that it didn't change his behavior in the future, though. He'd apologize and then do it again a few months later. I started learning that the apologies were more for him, to lessen his guilt, and not to change his behavior or do better in the future. I started feeling like they were a convenient way for him to just keep doing what he was doing. After so many years of it, I knew the truth and stopped listening to the I'm sorries.

Honestly, though, he's been much better these past few weeks. But, since I know his track record I'm leery of whether this change is now for real or not. I'm just busy working on Al Anon stuff, helping my son study for his tests this week(last week of school here), and preparing documents for the NCAA eligibility stuff, etc.
My son also got recommended for a travel scholarship through the USTA(United States Tennis Association) to use towards one of the summer tournaments we'd attend and he has to write an essay, I have to get 2 recommedations for him, and then fill out the rest of the application. This was a HUGE deal for him so I'm spending my time focusing on the things that I need to focus on, and letting AH do what he's going to do and I'm going to just detach and wait.

wicked

You are not thick headed, lizatola.
You are making progress.
Your son sounds like he has a super bright future ahead of him.
Scholarships for tennis, he must be amazing! I would be so dang proud.
(although, it is his accomplishment and talent that got him there, my bra straps bust a little over my daughter's progress and dean's list grades.)

I am sorry for being so harsh. It is truly my own problems that bring out the worst in me, and when I am feeling that way, I must move away from the keyboard.
I am sorry. I am ashamed of myself. Some day, I will be able to see how the effect of other peoples words is something about me, not about them at all.

I could use my words to help and support rather than be snide and judgmental.

Sincerely,

Beth

lizatola

Hugs, Beth! I didn't find you to be harsh, you were being honest and that's better than what I get from my alcoholic husband. We all have to learn our own lessons and if I didn't like coming to SR for the honesty, then I could go somewhere else, right?

As for my son, yes he's quite talented. The scholarship is awarded on 4 criteria, though, and I'm not sure he'll meet all of them. But, I figured it's more about the experience of applying, writing the essay, putting the stuff together, etc than it is about earning the scholarship itself. The money is to specifically be used towards travel expenses to a tournament in FL which we were already planning on entering anyway.

My biggest fears about my son are that he's so far behind in a few subjects because of some diagnosed learning and cognitive problems he has. He is also ADHD(more like ADD with Tourettes) and that really weighs him down at times when trying to get through his work. He is talented enough for Div I schools, but I am just hoping he can get through 2 years of junior college and then maybe transfer to Div II or something. Maybe things will change as he gets older but for now, he's not very motivated to get his work done, he struggles daily to just 'write' anything, and he hates math with a passion. I've had him with tutors, we work with a neuropsychologist, and he attends a homeschool co-op where the teachers are working with him in helping him find better ways to comprehend stuff in class. One of his teachers told him he can record the class and then he can take notes at home, another teacher told him to take a picture of the white board and the homework assignments, etc.

The funny thing is: even though he tests poorly, I know he still remembers so much from all of his lessons. He can still tell me the 4 nucleotide bases of DNA and that was from science from 4 months ago. Yet, if I ask him what he did in math on Friday, he'd get a blank look on his face, LOL!

So, with that said, I'm spending my time focusing on getting our son through some extra math this summer, having him catch up on literature stuff, and then having him practice his writing skills and comprehension. I have a reading tutor whom I may start him with this summer, too.

Maylie

It is a big step forward to come to terms with/accept these things about your husband. Keep working on yourself and working towards what will make YOU happy. As long as you keep taking care of yourself and your son then things will continue to improve. It is when we stop working on ourselves and stop trying to move forward when we really need to start worrying.

You are the only one that knows what is best for you and your son. I hope that you have some good friends or other family members around you that you can reach out to and talk to since your husband is not available in that department.

ShootingStar1

It seems that you have made a major major turn in your path. You aren't looking at life through your AH's eyes anymore. And you aren't trying to understand, explain, rationalize, justify, or be accountable for his behavior.

As the good mom you are, you are focused on your son.

Soon, however, I think that your growing ability and willingness to let your husband just be who he is without a lot of engagement, will clear a huge amount of emotional space and time for you.

This may be the time to start thinking about what YOU want, just for you. Your son will be off to the next stage of his life in the next several years, and you are young with a whole future ahead of you, just for you.

I think this is a great gift you are giving yourself. It is your time to begin to imagine different ways you could live, play out different scenarios, and have fun with it.

ShootingStar1