The alcoholics mental state, manipulation and getting help
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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The alcoholics mental state, manipulation and getting help
I posted about my A Brother a few days ago. So I went to an Al Anon meeting last night and found out they don't provide support for helping the A, only for ourselves. Well I need help in helping my brother.
I know I'll hear the "just be concerned for your life, there isn't much you can do if he doesn't want it". BUT....is there a way to get him help, being that he must have mental issues if he keeps drinking despite going into the hospital over and over for pancreatitis, and now liver too??? Someone HAS to be nuts to keep doing this! I am getting very worn down in dealing with him. He is very difficult a good bit of the time and wants his "recovery" to go his own way.
He finally went to the ER last week, that was after he called several times over a few days to make sure there wasn't a long wait. (one time that he called and said they were busy, I drove there and it was near empty and told him. He flipped on me.) Today he had a DRs appt set up, and he told me they called and said it's cancelled. Told him I'm calling, he got angry. They said it wasn't cancelled, so we went. He says they "f***d up" somewhere. He, if anyone, should be going to AA, being in that group for support, getting info on detox and follow up. He says AA isn't for him. Whenever I try to talk to him about his situation it's almost never the right time. EVERY place he goes, says they don't know what they're doing, that it doesn't go like I think it does. He says every place he calls puts him on hold too long. He has a very rebellious nature.....definitely not the "let go and let God" frame of mind.
So the main question is, can I have him taken for treatment due to mental issues? He's also very cunning and can fake being "ok" when he needs to be.
I know I'll hear the "just be concerned for your life, there isn't much you can do if he doesn't want it". BUT....is there a way to get him help, being that he must have mental issues if he keeps drinking despite going into the hospital over and over for pancreatitis, and now liver too??? Someone HAS to be nuts to keep doing this! I am getting very worn down in dealing with him. He is very difficult a good bit of the time and wants his "recovery" to go his own way.
He finally went to the ER last week, that was after he called several times over a few days to make sure there wasn't a long wait. (one time that he called and said they were busy, I drove there and it was near empty and told him. He flipped on me.) Today he had a DRs appt set up, and he told me they called and said it's cancelled. Told him I'm calling, he got angry. They said it wasn't cancelled, so we went. He says they "f***d up" somewhere. He, if anyone, should be going to AA, being in that group for support, getting info on detox and follow up. He says AA isn't for him. Whenever I try to talk to him about his situation it's almost never the right time. EVERY place he goes, says they don't know what they're doing, that it doesn't go like I think it does. He says every place he calls puts him on hold too long. He has a very rebellious nature.....definitely not the "let go and let God" frame of mind.
So the main question is, can I have him taken for treatment due to mental issues? He's also very cunning and can fake being "ok" when he needs to be.
Blu**ed Lines...A ClockWork SR
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,529
All I can say is detach and maybe look into an Intervention. He doesn't seem ready on his own or with you trying to help by yourself. Best of Luck and wishing you some internal peace.
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Join Date: May 2012
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I understand what you are saying, that alanon is support for living with, but not being able to control nor change the addict, and that you want more.
Oh, don't we all.
The bottom line is, unless you can have him declared mentally incompetent, and get guardianship, you can't control your brother. He's legally an adult. Alcohol is legal. Where is he breaking the law?
If he's breaking the law somewhere, then go for it. If you want to try to force him to bottom out and you can think of a manuever, then go for it. Getting him fired? If you can surely do it, then go for it. Mental ward? If you can surely do it, then go for it. Family intervention? Try it...
Short of breaking the law yourself, though.
That's why Alanon is there. We can't control other people. If people want to kill themselves, slowly or instantly, can we stop them? You can try it. You can call 911 everyday and say that he's trying to kill himself with alcohol. I doubt they are going to show up to stop him.
You are asking about mental incompetency. People smoke cigarettes, that's slow suicide. Maybe doughnuts are too. We can't lock up overweight people either. Gambling? Or bad financial decisions? Tanning addiction? Tv addiction? Where does the control end?
See? If it was that easy, we would have all controlled the drinker in our lives long ago...and no doubt, somebody would be controlling us for some bad habit/addiction as well.
Oh, don't we all.
The bottom line is, unless you can have him declared mentally incompetent, and get guardianship, you can't control your brother. He's legally an adult. Alcohol is legal. Where is he breaking the law?
If he's breaking the law somewhere, then go for it. If you want to try to force him to bottom out and you can think of a manuever, then go for it. Getting him fired? If you can surely do it, then go for it. Mental ward? If you can surely do it, then go for it. Family intervention? Try it...
Short of breaking the law yourself, though.
That's why Alanon is there. We can't control other people. If people want to kill themselves, slowly or instantly, can we stop them? You can try it. You can call 911 everyday and say that he's trying to kill himself with alcohol. I doubt they are going to show up to stop him.
You are asking about mental incompetency. People smoke cigarettes, that's slow suicide. Maybe doughnuts are too. We can't lock up overweight people either. Gambling? Or bad financial decisions? Tanning addiction? Tv addiction? Where does the control end?
See? If it was that easy, we would have all controlled the drinker in our lives long ago...and no doubt, somebody would be controlling us for some bad habit/addiction as well.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,407
It's exhausting trying to force someone into sobriety isn't it? And the harder you try, the more they push back against you. You learned a very important lesson about Alanon. Many people go there thinking they will find help in getting the A in their life sober. That is not the purpose of AlAnon. AlAnon offers experience, strength, and hope in helping you break free of the co-dependent enabling chaos that your life becomes. You learn if you want to help the A, first you need to get healthy yourself.
You didn't Cause it, can't Cure it, and can't Control it. If we could force people into sobriety....well...none of us would be on here because all our A's would be sober! It is painful to watch our loved ones make horrible choices. But we have to learn that it's their right as an adult to make those choices, even if we hate it. This may be hard to understand right now, but we have to give the A the dignity to live their life. They need to experience the real true consequences of their disease. As long as we intervene, we save them from really experiencing what they're doing.
The days of thinking if you're an alcoholic, you're mentally ill and should be locked up are looooong gone. Thankfully, society recognizes it's a disease unto itself. You can't force your brother into a treatment center. He is able to sign himself out at any time. And there is no benefit if he's only doing it to pacify you. He has to do it for him...and doesn't sound like he's there yet.
You did the right thing going to AlAnon. Keep going. Keep going. The only true way to help your brother is to help yourself. Honestly. You are caught up in the disease right now, and not only does that not help him...it makes you ill in the end. Alcoholism is a "contagious" disease...those of us who love an A get just as sick as they are unless we get help.
I feel for you dear Readysteady, I really do. I remember those days of going crazy trying to get my loved one into treatment. It was only when I finally surrendered, and stepped back, that he hit bottom and got sober. Without my help.
Keep going to Alanon....keep posting here. We're here for you.
You didn't Cause it, can't Cure it, and can't Control it. If we could force people into sobriety....well...none of us would be on here because all our A's would be sober! It is painful to watch our loved ones make horrible choices. But we have to learn that it's their right as an adult to make those choices, even if we hate it. This may be hard to understand right now, but we have to give the A the dignity to live their life. They need to experience the real true consequences of their disease. As long as we intervene, we save them from really experiencing what they're doing.
The days of thinking if you're an alcoholic, you're mentally ill and should be locked up are looooong gone. Thankfully, society recognizes it's a disease unto itself. You can't force your brother into a treatment center. He is able to sign himself out at any time. And there is no benefit if he's only doing it to pacify you. He has to do it for him...and doesn't sound like he's there yet.
You did the right thing going to AlAnon. Keep going. Keep going. The only true way to help your brother is to help yourself. Honestly. You are caught up in the disease right now, and not only does that not help him...it makes you ill in the end. Alcoholism is a "contagious" disease...those of us who love an A get just as sick as they are unless we get help.
I feel for you dear Readysteady, I really do. I remember those days of going crazy trying to get my loved one into treatment. It was only when I finally surrendered, and stepped back, that he hit bottom and got sober. Without my help.
Keep going to Alanon....keep posting here. We're here for you.
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Thank you, EW. Thank you, BS1. Thank you, Recovering2. I'm realizing there's only so much we can do with an addict, and I'm closer to detachment than ever now. Oh and get this....he made me promise to tell no one what's going on. I'll honor that as long as he works with me. So now, when I go out or at work, I know people see the troubled look on my face, and I can't tell them why....lovely, they probably think I'm crazy. Many know of his past scenarios, this is just yet another. So I'm really alone with it this time. This is the last straw as far as me helping him. I'll be in the picture for a little while longer, but if he keeps playing games, (acting like he has a rehab on the phone and such), and this b*****t gets stretched out (again), and the ball ain't rolling, I'm gonna be done with it. Gonna try and move out and not be front and center to this, and being caught up in the drama.
He has our father pretty manipulated. Dad will say, "well your Brother says you do this or that" and that he's stuck in the middle cause he don't know who to believe. HELLOOOO?! Isn't it quite crystal clear who's in dire need of addiction and mental help? Tired of excuse after excuse. And the ridicule, blame shift, finger pointing. I mean, I'M the one helping him!!! Told him today, if I don't see a change in his attitude, and he doesn't get on with help and quick, I'm walking away! But he says he's made calls, we'll see how it goes. Thanks so much for the input, and feel free to contact me, the posting/messaging helps.
He has our father pretty manipulated. Dad will say, "well your Brother says you do this or that" and that he's stuck in the middle cause he don't know who to believe. HELLOOOO?! Isn't it quite crystal clear who's in dire need of addiction and mental help? Tired of excuse after excuse. And the ridicule, blame shift, finger pointing. I mean, I'M the one helping him!!! Told him today, if I don't see a change in his attitude, and he doesn't get on with help and quick, I'm walking away! But he says he's made calls, we'll see how it goes. Thanks so much for the input, and feel free to contact me, the posting/messaging helps.
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Believe his actions, not his words.
He's telling you what he thinks will get you off his back a bit but he has EVERY intention of continuining on the same path he has been on.
The more I tried to talk to and understand and explain my concerns and how clearly I saw his disease in action to my xAH, the nastier, more manipulative and more determined he grew. And worst of all, it made me crazy and miserable.
Talk to anyone you like, and I would suggest setting limits wth him ie: "I won't listen to excuses" and then hang up when he starts spouting them (as he did with the ER, doctors office etc...)
He's telling you what he thinks will get you off his back a bit but he has EVERY intention of continuining on the same path he has been on.
The more I tried to talk to and understand and explain my concerns and how clearly I saw his disease in action to my xAH, the nastier, more manipulative and more determined he grew. And worst of all, it made me crazy and miserable.
Talk to anyone you like, and I would suggest setting limits wth him ie: "I won't listen to excuses" and then hang up when he starts spouting them (as he did with the ER, doctors office etc...)
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
So the main question is, can I have him taken for treatment due to mental issues? He's also very cunning and can fake being "ok" when he needs to be.
It’s unfortunate that you went to Al-anon with the intention of getting HIM help and were not open to receiving help for yourself. As Recovering2 pointed out, Alcoholism is a “contagious” disease, those that love an A can get just as sick as they are.
It’s very sad that you are allowing the sickest person you know to control YOUR life and cut off any support you may get from anyone because he wants to remain exactly where he is today nursing a bottle.
When you say, you will go along with that “stinking thinking” for as long as he works with you……what do you mean by that? How is he working with you?
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Atalose, what I mean by "as long as he works with me" is, I told him I'm there for him as long as he's getting help and into detox, getting into AA and such. It is sad that he has control to a degree, so I have to change MY mindset. BS1, he can't not drink til he gets into detox and it needs to be soon. Of course he says it ain't gonna be 1,2,3. I'm just worried that each day he still drinks is more damage. And wantobehealthy, you are right. Ok, I'll be back on later, thanks all!
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That,s what alcoholics do. Alcoholism is a mental illness.
Originally Posted by Readysteady 
I posted about my A Brother a few days ago. So I went to an Al Anon meeting last night and found out they don't provide support for helping the A, only for ourselves. Well I need help in helping my brother.
I know I'll hear the "just be concerned for your life, there isn't much you can do if he doesn't want it". BUT....is there a way to get him help, being that he must have mental issues if he keeps drinking despite going into the hospital over and over for pancreatitis, and now liver too??? Someone HAS to be nuts to keep doing this! I am getting very worn down in dealing with him. He is very difficult a good bit of the time and wants his "recovery" to go his own way.
He finally went to the ER last week, that was after he called several times over a few days to make sure there wasn't a long wait. (one time that he called and said they were busy, I drove there and it was near empty and told him. He flipped on me.) Today he had a DRs appt set up, and he told me they called and said it's cancelled. Told him I'm calling, he got angry. They said it wasn't cancelled, so we went. He says they "f***d up" somewhere. He, if anyone, should be going to AA, being in that group for support, getting info on detox and follow up. He says AA isn't for him. Whenever I try to talk to him about his situation it's almost never the right time. EVERY place he goes, says they don't know what they're doing, that it doesn't go like I think it does. He says every place he calls puts him on hold too long. He has a very rebellious nature.....definitely not the "let go and let God" frame of mind.
So the main question is, can I have him taken for treatment due to mental issues? He's also very cunning and can fake being "ok" when he needs to be.
I know I'll hear the "just be concerned for your life, there isn't much you can do if he doesn't want it". BUT....is there a way to get him help, being that he must have mental issues if he keeps drinking despite going into the hospital over and over for pancreatitis, and now liver too??? Someone HAS to be nuts to keep doing this! I am getting very worn down in dealing with him. He is very difficult a good bit of the time and wants his "recovery" to go his own way.
He finally went to the ER last week, that was after he called several times over a few days to make sure there wasn't a long wait. (one time that he called and said they were busy, I drove there and it was near empty and told him. He flipped on me.) Today he had a DRs appt set up, and he told me they called and said it's cancelled. Told him I'm calling, he got angry. They said it wasn't cancelled, so we went. He says they "f***d up" somewhere. He, if anyone, should be going to AA, being in that group for support, getting info on detox and follow up. He says AA isn't for him. Whenever I try to talk to him about his situation it's almost never the right time. EVERY place he goes, says they don't know what they're doing, that it doesn't go like I think it does. He says every place he calls puts him on hold too long. He has a very rebellious nature.....definitely not the "let go and let God" frame of mind.
So the main question is, can I have him taken for treatment due to mental issues? He's also very cunning and can fake being "ok" when he needs to be.
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Hi ReadySteady... Just to expand on what BlueSkies said above, even if you were successful in getting your brother declared incompetent/incapable and even if your were given guardianship, short of having him committed to a locked psych facility there's still really not much you can do on a practical level. You can't police him 24/7, ensure he never has access to cash, never meets up with boozy friends, never panhandles or pawn his or others belongings to get his hands on cash .... you get the picture.
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Thanks Chickadees. I know we can't make someone not get access to alcohol. I'm just trying to get him to detox, and maybe his clearer head will realize he must not drink. Hate to say, I'm not too optimistic. As bad of pain he's in and crying, and not eating, won't drink Gatorade (electrolytes), he's actually being picky about where to detox. There aren't too many options. And detox should come first, no matter what. He does have another Dr appt tomorrow so we'll see where that goes. Tonight I'm going to an AA meeting and see if some people have info on detox places. Gonna ask em where should someone go if they need to detox NOW. Every day that he still drinks is more damage.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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Active alcoholics are big effin liars.....
Personal experience has shown me not to believe a word out of their mouth.
Keep educating yourself in regards to addiction.
Education is really all we have when we are faced with this situation.
Personal experience has shown me not to believe a word out of their mouth.
Keep educating yourself in regards to addiction.
Education is really all we have when we are faced with this situation.
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Thank you, Marie1960. He has said, and still says things that make him appear to not take this all too serious, despite the dire state of his health. There are a few (seeming) lies I haven't called him out on cause I know it will just lead to hostilities....s**t that just doesn't add up. I still sense a degree of acting, even at this level of his condition. It's weird.
In AA there's a line that mentions those who can't be helped. I now really believe he is one of those. What a shame, he's such a good person too. Am more or less accepting his death. I might move out and give up the front row seat.
In AA there's a line that mentions those who can't be helped. I now really believe he is one of those. What a shame, he's such a good person too. Am more or less accepting his death. I might move out and give up the front row seat.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
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One of the things that can be very important to the A is for loved ones to stay quiet about what's happening. But, that is part of the enabling if you go along with that. Just like you can't control him, he has no right to tell you what you can talk about. Loved ones/family of A's learn 3 bad things.....Don't trust, Don't talk, Don't feel. Don't allow your brother to get you trapped in that.
Detox is only for a few days, and it's only to sober him up physically. If he's not mentally ready, it has no effect. And when they're first through detox, they can still be in a fog for several weeks. I"m not trying to be Debbie Downer, but you need to have realistic expectations. He may go to detox to "pacify" you, but if he doesn't follow through with recovery he is not likely to remain sober.
He has to want this for himself, I'm not hearing that in your posts.
Detox is only for a few days, and it's only to sober him up physically. If he's not mentally ready, it has no effect. And when they're first through detox, they can still be in a fog for several weeks. I"m not trying to be Debbie Downer, but you need to have realistic expectations. He may go to detox to "pacify" you, but if he doesn't follow through with recovery he is not likely to remain sober.
He has to want this for himself, I'm not hearing that in your posts.
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Thank you much, R2....We've been through the wringer on this many times, only now it really is life or death. I understand (and thank you) about detox being only the beginning. As far as not remaining sober....he doesn't have that option cause his health isn't giving him many more (or ANY MORE) times to eff up. This is IT!...as far as him doing all the right stuff for himself. There is something extremely rebellious about him. As I said in earlier posts, he hasn't thrown in the towel as far as doing whatever it takes. The people at one place "don't do their job right". The people at some other place are "incompetent" for whatever reason. So he probably won't remain sober, too much of a pattern with him. I'm closer to letting go. So when he's throwing up blood I'll talk about my friends thriving landscape business.
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I know the panic and lack of peace that you are feeling right now. I went through the same thing with my husband. I watched him drink himself to the point of having seizures and vomiting black, thick puke for days on end. I have spent hours searching the woods behind his dads house, in the snow, in the middle of the night because he called me asking for help, only to pass out shortly after. Then sit at the hospital with him because I find him passed out in a half frozen creek. Drug his unconscious body out of the road at 1 am while I was 6 months pregnant because he knew that I would be passing his dads house after work and sat in the road to wait for me, only to pass out.....The feeling of panic and not knowing what to do is overwhelming. You have to let go of it. Unfortunately, there is little to nothing you can do to be there for him until he is ready and he makes the conscious decision to make a change. I had to do this with my husband. It is killing me inside, but I have walked away and am accepting that I am responsible for my own self peace. The pain that you will feel after letting go is worse than anything that you have ever been through while dealing with your brother. You will feel guilt and question yourself and lay awake at night wondering if he is ok, but you have to let go. You can't control him and the more you try, the more you will drive yourself crazy. The pain will fade as you regain your self-peace and the panic goes away. If he is ever ready to make the change, you will be there with love and healthy support. Until he makes that choice though, there is nothing more to do than take a step back, find support for yourself and let go.
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Originally Posted by Readysteady
Thanks Chickadees. I know we can't make someone not get access to alcohol. I'm just trying to get him to detox, and maybe his clearer head will realize he must not drink. Hate to say, I'm not too optimistic. As bad of pain he's in and crying, and not eating, won't drink Gatorade (electrolytes), he's actually being picky about where to detox. There aren't too many options. And detox should come first, no matter what. He does have another Dr appt tomorrow so we'll see where that goes. Tonight I'm going to an AA meeting and see if some people have info on detox places. Gonna ask em where should someone go if they need to detox NOW. Every day that he still drinks is more damage.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-reposted.html
It shed a lot of light on things for me, both in the past and moving forward. Hope it does the same for you. Again, to repeat some good advice I heard here a while ago, "why should YOU work harder for their recovery than THEY do?"
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PS...and yes, he says he's doing it to "pacify me". Already told him it has to be for HIM, first and foremost.
You are working way way harder at your brothers recovery than he is. He does not want to get help. He said it as you posted above AND his actions show it.
The best thing you could do for you and for him is to say "I love you and want you to be well. I will be here to offer support when you are invested in your own health, but while you are in active addiction I need to take a step back" (maybe someone else can phrase it better than me).
While you are running around and trying to help him, he is seeing you as someone he can manipulate. For as long as he gives half ass remarks that he will think about recovery, he will have you around. That's not a life you want to live.
And even if he does detox, the disease is much much more than just drinking and the ONLY way he will get sober and get healthy is if his mind gets help and it is evident he is not interested.
You sound loving and kind and wonderful and I fear that you will devote more and more of your time to him and lose precious moments and years even of your own life as so many of us have.
If you'd asked me a few years ago if I thought I would have remained stuck in the alcoholic merry go round with my ex husband as long as I did and that I would sit here today realizing I have lost 4 years, countless friends, my health etc... bc of my choice to stay involved in the craziness I would have said "not me".
Please look out for yourself.
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