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Old 04-14-2013, 11:57 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Were my intentions good and in my HP's plan for us?

i'd gently suggest you worry about YOUR HP's plans for YOU and you only. we each have our own path....at best the paths of two align for a while...kinda like the interstate - thousands of drivers may USE that same roadway for a time, but they get on and off at different ramps and exits....we may drive beside, behind or in front of others but ultimately we have our OWN destination.

it's hard for me to comprehend two people that live in the same house resorting to emails. but that's just me....

what if....for one week you quit trying to engage in "meaningful" conversation, have no expectations on what he should or should do or say, just do your best to peaceful co-exist. no heavy topics, about as deep as you would get with the clerk ringing up your groceries. just for one week...no emails, no attempts to dissect or find hidden meanings, no reading between the lines....just do your thing, stay in your lane - drive and let drive.
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:59 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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[QUOTE=LaTeeDa;3916727]Personally, I think your HP has shown you the reality of who you are married to over and over and over, in many different ways. The marriage counseling is just the latest. It's you who refuses to accept it.

I tend to agree. Marriage councelers are not miracle workers. No matter how good they are they cannot "fix" a marriage while active drunken behavior is going on. Buzzing around in rent a cars while having no license, blacking out, extended alcohol machine requirements because of drinking, rage, ect....
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Old 04-14-2013, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
Then, we had this conversation today:
me: Check out my scratched up legs, those brittlebushes are really brutal out there.(I had been doing some yard work to pull the desert bushes away from my fence line in preparation for adding chicken wire to the fencing).
AH: Well, then, why didn't you just wear pants?

Now, that may seem innocent to most people, but this is normal conversation for him. Instead of validating my feeling (silly as it was) he chose to tell me how I should have done it better.
Although I understand the point you are trying to make - I have to say this above...this is often just how men communicate. Women know how to validate feelings. I think expecting your husband, who seems rather type A already, to validate your feelings is a set up for ongoing resentments. This isn't something the majority of men in our society are innately good at.
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Old 04-14-2013, 03:17 PM
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Actually TG, the first thing that popped into my head was put on some pants. This didn't anything to do with feelings, it had to do with her legs getting scratched up.

Your friend,
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Old 04-14-2013, 03:33 PM
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It sounds to me like he was pretty much telling you that if you want to leave the marriage, he won't do anything to try and stop you. That would tell me all I needed to know.
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Old 04-14-2013, 03:49 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
Actually TG, the first thing that popped into my head was put on some pants. This didn't anything to do with feelings, it had to do with her legs getting scratched up.

Your friend,
Thanks Mike. My point is that men are solution oriented. Not feelings oriented. In general, of course, but the more alpha, the more likely to view the world in a solution-oriented way. Scratched legs? Wear pants! Sore back? Take ibuprofen. Boss being a b!tch? Find a new boss. Easy-peasy, no feelings., just solutions.

I had a date last night, where I was relaying a story about a bad date the weekend before, where the guy showed up without his wallet and was a mess over me paying for dinner. Then the guy mailed me a $50 bill a few days later. In my head, it hurt my feelings (no second date request, just a $50 in the mail). My date last night's response? Whips out his wallet, shows it to me, and says "I'm paying; order whatever you like". Not once did he ask or comment about my feelings. In his mind, I presented a problem, he gave me a solution (reassurance that I would be treated to dinner by him). If I wanted my feelings validated, I would have called one of my girlfriends.

Liz, be careful when deciding what you really want, that you take into account what he is really capable of giving.
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Old 04-14-2013, 03:52 PM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
Actually TG, the first thing that popped into my head was put on some pants. This didn't anything to do with feelings, it had to do with her legs getting scratched up.

Your friend,
Yes! Put on some pants!

I would want to be protected from bushes that will scratch my legs and also the reason for the darn fence in the first place!

Rattlesnakes.

I would be wearing my combat boots with work pants tucked in. If it was too hot for that outfit, then I would not do the job. (clear the brush).

Rattlesnakes.

Liz, I think when your husband mistook "it" as the marriage (failing to work) and not the counseling, you did not hear that.
He may not have the guts to say it. He does not have the guts to tell your son, he asked you if you had done it.
You are choosing to stay married to someone who cares less about you than you do.

How old is your son?
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:48 PM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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It is so difficult to believe that people can be so blind. But alcoholics have the bright spotlight of alcohol shining in their eyes. Shine a bright light in YOUR eyes and see how clear everything else is: It's all a dim blur. That's all we are.

He may be a jacka55. He may be a drunk that's a really superior human being underneath it all. Keep in mind that in 5 years, odds are awful that he'll be sober and in active recovery. He's going to have to beat the odds, and fight for it, and it's all on him. You can't do anything to steer that ship.

In the meantime, don't stop living your life. Al-anon, therapy, friends, a few professional outlets gave me a stronger support network, so when I was degraded at home, I had a LOT of other experiences to balance that out. Best of luck to you and your son.
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:08 PM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
I just sent AH an email telling him that when he said the words 'vaginization of America' that I was offended and that it was demeaning to women. He was referring to men getting pedicures. He also had said it in front of our son and I wanted him to know that it was inappropriate. In the past, I'd just let it go.
That's just a weird conversation...why is he talking about what other men choose to do with their feet?
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:58 PM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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I know exactly what you are going through. With my AH its like he gets drunk and angry, a fight ensues, I get defensive and angry then the next day he either acts as if nothing happened or everything was completely my fault! Its getting to the point where I hate to see him coming! I'm at peace when he's not around, but then I start to miss him and want to spend time with him until he's actually around. Sometimes I get around other men and think why can't my husband be more like that? Its almost to the point where I wanna just emotionally cut him off! I feel like a mad woman because I love someone who 90% of the time I don't like.
Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
After realizing that our marriage therapist had had enough of AH and pretty much validated me and my issues and seemed to have the same frustrations of dealing with him, I decided it was do or die time, LOL. I realized I have nothing to lose. I wanted to start calling him on the carpet on his behavior, how I feel about the things he says, being direct and letting him know that what he says is demeaning or condescending, or whatever. It feels like a weight is lifted. I was so tired of walking eggshells and holding onto protecting his ego that I couldn't figure out what I felt or didn't feel.

Ah was pretty shocked that the therapist wanted to stop working with us, so I gave him the guys card and said that he can meet with him individually for a final review(suggested by the therapist to both of us, of course).

I just sent AH an email telling him that when he said the words 'vaginization of America' that I was offended and that it was demeaning to women. He was referring to men getting pedicures. He also had said it in front of our son and I wanted him to know that it was inappropriate. In the past, I'd just let it go. Then, we had this conversation today:
me: Check out my scratched up legs, those brittlebushes are really brutal out there.(I had been doing some yard work to pull the desert bushes away from my fence line in preparation for adding chicken wire to the fencing).
AH: Well, then, why didn't you just wear pants?

Now, that may seem innocent to most people, but this is normal conversation for him. Instead of validating my feeling (silly as it was) he chose to tell me how I should have done it better. This is a common theme for him and I finally hit a wall today. I realized that he could have said something gentler, been more sympathetic, or just commiserate a bit. Nope, I felt ready to go into defensive mode and explain why I didn't get around to putting on pants. And, hence, I'd find myself on the merry go round again. I'm tired of defending every stupid little thing and I'm tired of trying to live up to his standards.
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:36 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by choublak View Post
That's just a weird conversation...why is he talking about what other men choose to do with their feet?
LOL!!! He has serious issues with women, that's why. He used to get mad any time we had a fight and I asked him to be more compassionate or sympathetic to me or to others and he would say, "I'm not a softy like so and so who cries at every Bible verse he reads." He was talking about someone who was his best friend and who also is a recovering drug addict/alcoholic who has a great family, 4 kids, a loving wife, and a solid spiritual life as well. He claims that men who show their soft side are feminized.

He used to tell me, "Don't ask me to do that(whatever it was at the time), I won't let you carry my balls around in your purse like all the other men in America."

The white man in America has it bad according to him because of women's rights movement, etc. He often makes reference in disdain about how women shouldn't get paid the same as men. I stopped arguing with him over this stuff a long time ago. It's funny that he feels this way because his mother was an emergency room nurse for 40 years and worked graveyard and holidays to help pay for 3 kids private school education.

So, I guess that's why I told him I found his vaginization of America comment offensive. It wasn't just an offhand remark to be funny, it's truly an issue with his values and thinking about women in general.
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
So, I guess that's why I told him I found his vaginization of America comment offensive. It wasn't just an offhand remark to be funny, it's truly an issue with his values and thinking about women in general.
Either way, when I first read that I thought, "does this man not have anything better to talk about?"
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by choublak View Post
Either way, when I first read that I thought, "does this man not have anything better to talk about?"
Umm, to him, that is something better to talk about. Railing against the government, his job, his bosses, women, black people, whatever is how he occupies his mind and his time. I stopped engaging him years ago when this started getting out of hand because I didn't want to debate with him about the plight of the white man. UGH! And, his mother used to call me up and complain about his rantings and ravings and ask me the same question you just did, LOL!
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by lizatola View Post
And, his mother used to call me up and complain about his rantings and ravings and ask me the same question you just did, LOL!
Are you serious?

She raised him; she should be checking her family tree for that trait.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:09 PM
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The white man in America has it bad according to him because of women's rights movement, etc. He often makes reference in disdain about how women shouldn't get paid the same as men. I stopped arguing with him over this stuff a long time ago. It's funny that he feels this way because his mother was an emergency room nurse for 40 years and worked graveyard and holidays to help pay for 3 kids private school education.
Seriously? What about him is keeping you in this marriage? I don't think I could sit next to him at dinner, much less attend marriage counseling to save a marriage with someone so disgusting.

I apologize if this seems overly judgemental, but Liz, this kind of blindness and resentment-based belief system is toxic and socially unacceptable.

He has serious issues with women, that's why.

...So, I guess that's why I told him I found his vaginization of America comment offensive. It wasn't just an offhand remark to be funny, it's truly an issue with his values and thinking about women in general.
As a woman, I imagine being married to a misogynist would be rather difficult anyway. Throw alcoholism, racism, bitterness and narcissism in there, and you're in knee deep, girl.

Liz, something about your threads is very frustrating to me, like watching a movie where the heroine babysitter gets a threatening phone call from INSIDE THE HOUSE and decides to go investigate. As a member of the audience, I'm screaming, no! Get out! Call the police! Danger, danger! But she's innocently/bravely headed up to the attic to investigate.
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:32 PM
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Seriously? What about him is keeping you in this marriage? I don't think I could sit next to him at dinner, much less attend marriage counseling to save a marriage with someone so disgusting.

I apologize if this seems overly judgemental, but Liz, this kind of blindness and resentment-based belief system is toxic and socially unacceptable.
Excuse me, let me dial it back a bit. I'm a little crazy since AH went to rehab AGAIN. Something about it stirred up some dark stuff for me and I don't mean to take it out on you.

I maintain the horror movie analogy, however. What I wouldn't give for you to grab your things and run away from this guy. He sounds like a nightmare.

You only live once.
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Old 04-16-2013, 11:59 AM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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I wanted to start calling him on the carpet on his behavior, how I feel about the things he says, being direct and letting him know that what he says is demeaning or condescending, or whatever. It feels like a weight is lifted. I was so tired of walking eggshells and holding onto protecting his ego that I couldn't figure out what I felt or didn't feel.
Openly communicating your feelings is about you figuring out and verbalizing your feelings, which is great. In your relationship that is only going to go one way because he is not capable of it.

Calling him on the carpet is very different from communicating your feelings btw.

I'm tired of defending every stupid little thing and I'm tired of trying to live up to his standards.
I can believe that. It is mentally and emotionally exhausting to live that way. He will never ever ever be any different so the trick is what can you change to be less tired of how you are living? How can you re-frame it so that you are less tired of the way you are living? I know you are working on that.

I'm to short sited to see any solution other than the one I chose but there is more than one I'm sure. As always, it comes down to accepting that you can't change him and focusing on your own decisions and thought processes instead.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:09 PM
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Thanks Thumper. I don't really 'call him on the carpet' so to speak. I state it this way:
When you said this......, I felt this way......, and I would appreciate it if you would take a different approach. Is that fair to him and to me? I think so.

Now, did I get a response from those things I addressed? NOPE. Of course, I didn't expect to but I felt good knowing that I expressed how I felt, whether he agreed or not. That's not my business. If I hurt someone's feelings or made them feel inferior I know I'd want to know, even if it hurts to see/hear the truth. I have a few really good 'normie' friends in life whom I can do that with and I use my relationships with them as example of what 'healthy' human relationships can look like.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:21 PM
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I believe the #1 reason relationships end is that one person tries to change the other person. Sadly, the traits he has you will probably never change. I liked the horror movie analogy. Thank god, he has the alcohol machine on for longer. He does not feel that rules of society apply to him.
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Old 04-16-2013, 12:31 PM
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One of these days he's going to rant and rave in front of the wrong person...
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