Hopeworks

10 months is still "honeymoon phase" and a very short time in relationship evaluation.

However, when you see a LOT of red flags in a person it is a great idea not to collect them as they are not party favors.

You are not abandoning this man and it is pure wisdom for you to detach and watch his recovery efforts from afar.

I say this as an adult child of an alcoholic ... marrying an alcoholic and choosing to have children is like playing Russian roulette with 5 shells in the chamber.

sunnshinegirl

If I had paid attention to my instincts, I would have run right after I met my AH but I kept thinking things would change. They did change. They've gotten much worse. I kept worrying so much about him, I forgot about myself and here I am just waking up to the fact I need to practice tough love and detach and leave. I think step one is what you have done by posting to this wonderful board and then I think the next step is to read everything you can about detaching. From my experience as a much older person who has been in a bad situation, I would advise you to take care of yourself. Easy to say. Hard to do for sure but there's a lot of help available to you.

RollTide

Run like hell. Run like hell. Run like hell. What would be cruel is to put yourself through what he most likely has to offer.

petmagnet

I tend to agree with the others that have said- to move on. If I had to do it all over knowing what I know now, I would exit stage left, and work on myself as he works on himself while you are still young enough. There are no guarantees in this disease and the ability to stay recovered.

soberlicious

Preemptive to what? Losing yourself?

In my experience it always seems preemptive because no matter how bad it gets...what if the happy ending is just around the corner? If I leave I will miss it. I think you can see where that thinking can lead.

Tuffgirl

This above is so common in alcoholic relationships. Here's what I have learned from talking other alcoholics. We all get on so well with our A's because they are masters at manipulating the relationship early on to be exactly what we want them to be. If they become that - it takes the focus off the red flags, like how much and how often they drink.

One recovering alcoholic called it "mirroring" what he knew his then GF wanted. He was a chameleon. It worked for some time.

I look back on my XAH and see the same thing. No wonder I was so enamored. It was like dating myself! I thought he was the love of my life, blah blah blah. Now I realize not only did I not know him as a person, but he didn't know himself either. He was too busy trying to be whatever he thought others wanted him to be.

Accepting this made it that much easier to let it go. I wasn't having a real relationship. I was living a fantasy that was created by my own desires and reinforced by his inability to be his own person.

Inter

Thank you so much for your considered replies, I'm shocked and heartened at the kindness and generosity shown in this forum.

It's all brilliant advice that even in my limited experience, i'd give if it was me talking to a friend, but it's much more complicated and confusing when it's you in the driving seat

. I think CeceliaV's point of taking time to make a decision is one thing that's indisputable. I'll have a chat with him, his counsellor and his mum once he's back on his feet and come to some sort of conclusion. I'll be reading this thread every few days for a while, I reckon!

RollTide

Inter,

I am glad you found this forum. It literally saved my life and I will always be grateful for it. I read a lot back when I was married to my AH and the honest postings by those who shared their experiences were invaluable in educating me and helping me to see what path I needed to take. It was hard to think straight when I was in the middle of it.

Please keep reading!

posiesperson

Oh, what Tuffgirl said: "I wasn't having a real relationship. I was living a fantasy that was created by my own desires and reinforced by his inability to be his own person."

Many many many times after I broke up with my exA I thought/said to myself: "Who did I fall in love with? Someone who didn't really exist!"

Thanks for bringing that back to the forefront of my memory. It's an excellent reminder!

posie

LadySage

I don't see why you should have faith in him staying sober right now. He has a long way to go until you can trust that his recovery is solid. IMHO with alcoholics you have to rely on their behavior rather than words or faith. Rely on the reality of the situation now, not the puppies and skittles of a new relationship.

Listen to what is behavior is telling you. What is your gut telling you? Is this something you want to deal with the rest of your life? Is this something you want your future children to deal with?

theuncertainty

Welcome to SR F&F, Inter.

Tuffgirl, thanks for sharing this. I'd read about mirroring in connection with abusive relationships and red-flags, but it didn't really click - this was a major "oh, I think I get it now" assist.

Aviva

Holy #$%@, that's what I'm doing to my bf. In other social interactions, I'm inept. But bizarrely, with him I have a keen sense of exactly where I can push him how far, and what small efforts reinforce his impression that I'm amazing and he's so lucky. Yesterday I was covertly rude to his brother (dropped by bf's to pick up something I'd forgotten; visiting brother was in the bathroom so I didn't have to say hi, and dashed out before he emerged). But when we're alone, I make sure bf is thoroughly pampered. So I get away with blatantly unfriendly behavior toward people who are important to him.


And THAT, Inter, is coming from an alcoholic who drank only for a few years, albeit hard (2L/day) and hid it well without "consequences," someone who's working a solid program and wants sobriety for herself, whether or not there's a partner around. I'm working the steps, and have no desire to drink, yet given the choice in a vacuum, I'd rather drink than ANYthing else. Were I a man, I would not suggest a vibrant 34-year-old woman who wanted a solid future have anything to do with me.


I presume bf would leave me if I relapsed; he's seen late-stage alcoholism and wouldn't stand for it. That keeps me going to meetings at least daily, making calls, doing service, limiting time with bf so I don't make him my HP. But if I did relapse, and if for whatever reason he became willing to have a chat, I'd make sure to look like I was getting back on my feet. I'd say whatever was necessary to assure counselors, him, whoever he wanted, anyone he trusted, of anything he needed, in order for him to stay around. If he put any weight on that, if he had any trust at all in my post-relapse words and apparent intentions, if he believed he could rely on anything I said in such a chat, he'd be a fool.

Inter

Powerful post there Aviva, thank you for sharing your experience. Words I'll certainly heed.

Hammer

Yep. Mirroring. VERY common in Borderline, as well. Figures I guess as many long-term addicts are Borderline or have traits.

Mrs. Hammer does this pretty strong. Back when we met she wanted to help hurt kids -- I was doing PTSD type therapy for childhood stuff.

She never really did much into that, but then into Social Work school and after she was working on some of her own problems, and was getting help from a SW / family friend who had worked for CPS. So then she wanted to do that. Again, total mirror. But never did.

She is now back about 100 days from re-hab for an Eating Disorder/Addictions. Guess what, she wants to be a T for Eating Disorders/Addicts. While the place she went has better sense than to hire from the customer base, she has found an agency that will. So change of hair style, clothes, demeanor, etc. -- total mirror of the Eating Rehab, etc., that is the new thing.

Gee, I wanta be a Fireman when I grow up.

Makes me wonder if there is or ever was a real person under there, at all.

At this point, I would not describe things as a relationship. More a User-Ship. She uses me and the kids for what she wants and/or to feel better.

Addicts are Users.

posiesperson

Wow, this is a great thread, very good information here.

Aviva, I applaud your honesty. Thank you so much for your courage to validate the "mirroring."

Hammer, I wanted to cry when I read your post. Very powerful...

TG, I briefly dated a guy who had a chameleon tattoo. He thought it was a strength to blend into his environment. It was all over once he said it was also a strength that he used pot every day...(WHAT??!) Thankfully I quickly learned he wasn't the guy for me.

Inter, whatever you decide to do, you have options! And that is a priceless gift.

I so appreciate this place,
posie

Aviva

Inter, there's a book that's very careful in its mentions of alcoholism. Much of it applies to the reality of sharing a life with an addict. No idea whether relevant to your situation, but FWIW: Living with the Passive-Aggressive Man by Scott Wetzler
Passive (or covert) aggression can look different in men than our generally female-based stereotypes convey, so the book is worth finding and leafing through.

There are options you didn't mention, including: 4) Have faith that this will be his last time, and leave 5) Hope his relapses aren't too bad or too frequent, and leave.

It's not about you having faith vs. being cruel. You can recognize that his 15 months of recovery were impressive, AND still make choices that are a Yes to yourself.


Your post caught my eye bc I met bf early in recovery (day 80 -- it wasn't romance right away, though) and bc he uses the same language to describe the relationship that you do yours. I don't want to invalidate your experience at all, it's just ... there's so much that doesn't show, even when we're being as authentic and honest as we can be in the moment. Many of the ways in which I'm ideal for bf are real, and not all that easy to find in one package. And we do have a large number of similar preferences and idiosyncracies. BUT I don't talk about most of the differences that are important to me. Why would I? He's so happy!

I like to think that I'm more aware of my shortcomings than many are, and more proactive in addressing them. After all, I started going to Al-Anon bc I felt highly annoyed by bf's (as-identified-by me, ha!) "al-anonic" traits, and realized I'd better clean up my own. But still, I'd rather drink alone than build a life with a wonderful guy. I'd rather my life be over, than have to do the work of, well, living. Even though it has every indication of potential for becoming a beautiful life. This sounds raw and unappealing, and I don't want to paint every other alcoholic out there with the brush I use to depict myself; yet somehow it's unlikely that men in recovery are sunshine and daisies by comparison. If I relapsed, I can only hope bf would say "good luck and call me when you get six months together." But he's so in love with the idea of us being perfect, I'm afraid he'd start justifying, explaining, defending, and putting stock in my words-of-best-intentions rather than looking at my actions.

Anyway, your post and the thinking and soul-searching it prompted in me got me to get a bit more honest with bf yesterday. Less hiding means more chance of staying sober. Thanks for that.

juliep

Sorry to read your post.
And if anyone has a crystal ball - please may I borrow it?!
I left my ABF after two attempts at rehab, three awful 'rock bottom' times of over 30 units each and every day for several weeks.
If I had had the crystal ball I would have got out much sooner.
But only you will know when you are ready.
What is most important is that you MUST look after yourself, stay happy and in control of your life.
The best help you can give an alcoholic is no help.

Inter

My god, the strength, honesty and kindness in these posts is so inspiring. Ive read, read and read them again. I'm saddened of the difficult experiences but I'm trying to get insight from it. I think I have a good sense of self and I don't feel dependent on him, but at the same time I want to give him them benefit of doubt. Just maybe not while my wounds from the experience heal.

As it stands he's in week 6 of the relapse/active alcoholism and I've made baby steps towards extricating myself, saying I won't see him while he's active. Once he detoxes, we can make a call from there. Miss him (recovery bf, not active bf) so much

CeciliaV

Inter, I hear you. I've "missed" my husband for years now, with only brief glimpses of the real, sober him here & there. He's at rehab again now, but even when he was here and drunk, I missed him. It's so sad.