Reality check

Old 03-15-2013, 02:56 PM
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Reality check

Hi, folks--I realize this is something I should probably be addressing in a sponsor-type relationship in AA, but in the 5 meetings I have been to so far, I have not found a prospective sponsor yet. Wondering if I can get some feedback here in the meanwhile? As briefly as possible:

My A is my hub. We are married 16 years. I knew he was an RA when we met, and yet we both drank and smoked. I think I believed this was somehow OK b/c he made me feel safe, which I desperately wanted at that time, and also the drinking was not in any way unusual--no secrecy, not excessive, etc. The first time there was a problem, it did not involve alcohol at all. Shortly after we were married, he came home from playing cards w/some friends and announced that so-and-so and his wife were quitting smoking and so should we. I did quit and so far as I knew, so had he. A couple of years later, I found out he had NEVER quit smoking, and his excuse for not telling me was "well, YOU succeeded, but I was too ashamed to tell you." Guess I kind of bought this at the time, stupid tho it sounds to me now. He then went on to "really quit."

Over the next few years, I found his cigarettes a couple times, each time making a big scene, "why are you lying to me, why don't you just smoke openly if you want to smoke?". At one point, he was honest for a month or 2 about his smoking but then "really quit" again, which, amazingly enough, turned out not to be true. (Should also add that my sense of smell is very poor, so I never noticed a smell, coupled w/the fact that he was always VERY careful about ventilation, from what I later learned.)

Moving forward, our relationship seemed to grow more distant and he just didn't seem like "the man I married". He would come down later and later for dinner from his upstairs room where he would build model airplanes, his hobby. Many nights things just seemed off, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Finally, a little over 4 years ago, he was unmistakably drunk when he came down. Turns out he had been drinking up there alone every night for years and the times he came down late were the times he had "overshot" and had to wait to sober up to where I would not notice. He immediately agreed to return to AA and started going to a meeting each weekend. He would come home and tell me the topic of the meeting, a little about what was said, even sometimes things like "oh, we had a newcomer" or the like.

In that 4 years, there were times I observed that he seemed as if he had been drinking upstairs again, but after agonizing about asking him (oh, I can't show that I DOUBT him!) and finally asking on several occasions, I was told "no, of course I'm not drinking." Again, in the interest of brevity, I found out about a month and a half ago that he had NEVER gone to one single meeting and did not change ANYTHING, had been drinking and smoking and lying about it the whole time. This time, completely unwilling to make a change, things like "this is my only pleasure in the day!" and "our relationship is just like ROOMMATES!" coming out of his mouth.

I am not willing to live w/an active alcoholic. I filled out divorce papers (no kids, just us) and told him I am not willing to go on like this. Now he is allegedly on the wagon again. I am making myself crazy trying to figure out if this is for real. Typing it, I guess I see that it's about a 99.9% chance that it's NOT real. Now I'm trying to decide, am I nuts? He is not abusive, he is not a fall-down drunk, we do not have financial problems--yet. Part of me says "so let him drink, who cares, it's not all that bad" but another part says "is that what you really want?"

I feel incredibly stupid--this should not be a hard decision! Yet part of me wants to "help", wants to somehow hope that, after being lied to for essentially the entire duration of our marriage, THIS time it will stop. And is he really an alcoholic, or is he a LIE-aholic, since this same behavior has involved other things besides alcohol?

Thank you to anyone who has pressed on and read thru this epic....and I dread yet need input. I'll be watching, and I think I need to ask someone to be at least a temporary sponsor for me very soon. Again, thanks.

Wanted to add: I understand that only he can make the decision to stop drinking/lying. I am in Alanon and understand I have a LOT to work on regarding myself and how F'd up our relationship was right from the get go.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:08 PM
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You say he was a RA when you met, but you drank and smoked together. So he was not a RA, he was an A. He has never been in recovery according to the history you provided. He tells you over and over that he's stopping, but he never has. So he lies and hides.

Of course he's "on the wagon" again. He'll do whateve it takes to keep you enmeshed. That's what the disease does. You set a line in the sand with divorce papers, then you back off. He learns you can be manipulated. This is a progressive disease, it will only get worse. How many more years do you want to play the game? You didn't Cause it, can't Cure it, and can't Control it. All you can do is decide what you want for YOU.

If you're not ready to leave, you're not ready to leave. But be very careful about making threats and not following through. Say what you mean, mean what you say, don't be mean about it. Are you in AlAnon? Have you read "Codependent No More"? These would both help you sort this out for yourself.

Based on his history, I would not by his "on the wagon" story again. Actions....not words.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by honeypig View Post
I am not willing to live w/an active alcoholic. I filled out divorce papers (no kids, just us) and told him I am not willing to go on like this. Now he is allegedly on the wagon again. I am making myself crazy trying to figure out if this is for real. Typing it, I guess I see that it's about a 99.9% chance that it's NOT real. Now I'm trying to decide, am I nuts? He is not abusive, he is not a fall-down drunk, we do not have financial problems--yet. Part of me says "so let him drink, who cares, it's not all that bad" but another part says "is that what you really want?"
In this paragraph there's contradictions -- you won't live with an active A vs. now you're trying to decide. In my opinion, this is what you have to figure out. You already know that you historically cannot take him at his word. What are his actions telling you? There's no time limit on your answer, but you do have to make the decision independently of whatever he is or isn't doing about his drinking. Or whether you're SURE he is or isn't drinking.

No one's going to think you're terrible if it's really "not all that bad" and you can continue to live this way. You know, of course, that the disease is progressive, so you know, you need to decide what to do when it gets worse. How much is "not all that bad"?

I wish you strength and courage untangling these questions.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:28 PM
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Recovering2, yes, I am in Alanon, but do not have a sponsor yet, and from what I have seen, the meetings are not the appropriate forum for the sort of specific issues I need to talk about, hence my comment about needing to find someone I can talk to one-on-one. Thank you for the book recommendation.

Just for clarification, the divorce papers were filled out when he was not willing to consider getting sober. When that changed, I decided to put things on hold for the time being.

SparkleKitty, this is exactly my problem: I CANNOT TELL what his actions are. Since he has successfully hidden his drinking from me over a period of many years, what is to say he will not appear to be working his program and I will continue to believe it until the NEXT time, however many years down the road? This is what I'm struggling with. I want the answer to be black and white, but it does not look that way to me (altho the lack of clarity, I am sure, lies with ME and not with the situation itself....).

I don't want to live w/an active alcoholic, but what if I can't tell if he is active or not? What kind of crazy question even IS that?

Thanks to both of you for your time and insights; will take them to heart.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:37 PM
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You're not crazy nor stupid. Deciding to end a relationship is not an easy decision to make. All you can do is ask yourself questions about what you want out of a relationship/marriage and make decisions for yourself. I get that it's hard. Making a major life change like separation or divorce takes soul searching, and you're not going to be judged for deciding to end a relationship if it's not working for you. There's no checklist to decide whether it's "bad enough" to leave, and anyone who does try to judge for any decisions you make can just stuff it!

Take solace in knowing that you've got a community of people here to support you. Reach out to those who you trust for comfort. And most importantly, take care of yourself. Sending you strength, hope, and hugs.
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Old 03-15-2013, 04:40 PM
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You have been living with an active alcoholic all this time. You likely won't be able to tell until it's worse, he's managed to keep it hidden all this time.
This is exactly what AlAnon IS good for, and it IS the right place to work it out. This is the struggle many people have dealt with, there could be alot of wisdom and experience in those meetings. There are many times in my meetings when someone shares a specific issue or concern they're grappling with. Other shares may feed on that one, or people approach after the meeting to talk one on one.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:10 PM
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Its maddening trying to figure out if they are drinking when you can't tell. I got better at picking up cues from my son- oddly, it was mostly that he was in a better mood. He's much more friendly and talkative when he has a buzz. Before I was 100% convinced he was an alcoholic, I'd ask him to stop hiding it and just drink out in the open. The lying and hiding of alcohol was more upsetting than the actual drinking. Its crazy making, for sure.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:25 PM
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I dunno what to suggest to you, except that Al-Anon may help you to clear up your thinking. Was your marriage "good enough" to stick with while he was secretly drinking? If so, what has really changed, apart from the fact that you now know he isn't honest about it?

As Recovering noted, you HAVE been living with an active alcoholic all this time. Part of alcoholism involves hiding it. The hiding and lying about drinking is part and parcel of the alcoholism, it isn't that he takes great joy in hiding it from you.

Seems to me you can accept the fact that he will never admit his drinking, and continue as you have been (which I gather hasn't been so terrible), or you can decide you want something different and leave. It isn't a decision you must make immediately, though. I'd get a sponsor and start getting serious about your own recovery, and take some time to get your wits about you. You've been dealing with this for 16 years (whether you knew it or not), so there isn't exactly a rush about it. Take your time. More will be revealed.
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:43 PM
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It's a very tough position you are in, honeypig. Your relationship with him is "functional" in the same way that some alcoholics are "functional." The surface presentation is working, but underneath there is ongoing decay.

He has been progressing in his addiction, and he is likely quite physically dependent on the alcohol, in addition to the emotional and psychological dependency. He lied because he is afraid to give it up. Unwilling to give it up. Not yet desperate to give it up. And perhaps physically he cannot give it up. He has an intense bond with alcohol, and it is destroying the bond he has with you (which, it seems to me, is there, even though badly damaged).

People who enter recovery enter those rooms flat-out near dead. They are sick, they are hopeless, they are scared out of their minds. The ones who are the worse off are the ones who probably want recovery the most. And when they hit that final bottom, and go crawling into the rooms, they work a program. They hit several meetings a week, usually daily, for months, they get sponsors, they get counselors, they are 24/7 recovering alcoholics while they are trying to scrape themselves off the floor and clean up the wreckage of their past and present.

When you say he is "apparently" on the wagon, I have trouble believing he is sober at all. Addiction is so powerful. Alcoholics don't just put it down. Those who merely abuse alcohol for years can do that because they aren't addicts. But addicts are BONDED to the drink and they have an overwhelming compulsion which causes them to drink against their wills. Reading chapters 2 and 3 of the AA Big Book at Big Book Online Fourth Edition helps make this very clear to those of us who do not understand the experience of addiction. So when someone is in recovery, there seems to me there would be no mistaking what is happening.

To file papers for divorce as a reaction to his drinking and lying is a deeply emotional response to a very complex situation. If you can give yourself perhaps six months to sort things out in your mind and heart, you will have given your Higher Power opportunity to work in you, to reveal more of what you need to know in this crisis and cannot yet see. Your AH is not abusive. He is certainly unavailable for relationship. He is certainly consumed. But your words indicate he is not abusive. So if you go to Al-Anon (2 or 3 meetings a week) and work with a sponsor for perhaps six months, you can buy yourself some time so you can make good choices with a clearer head.

He will perhaps continue to drink throughout this period of time, and though it will at times hurt you or make you angry, there may come a day, with your work in Al-anon, that you realize you are not nearly as reactive as you once were. This does not mean you want to be married to an unavailable man. It means that if the day comes when you need to leave, you will do so with much less bitterness than if you had not given yourself the time to find your center and examine your needs.

Years ago I was an Al-Anon member in Akron, Ohio where AA was founded by Bill W. and Dr. Bob. I lived very near the mansion where they were introduced to each other as a result of Bill W. asking the mistress of that mansion if she could find him another alcoholic to talk to to help him stay sober. Both those men got sober and millions more since then have done so. The Al-Anon meeting I went to was very strong. And there were women there who had long marriages to alcoholics, and the alcoholic and the wife had each entered their respective recovery programs and they had each taken an individual journey--sometimes living separately, or sometimes just splitting the house into "private" zones--and because they had done the work and were continuing to do the work, they were not only still together, they were bonded. Once broken, they had rebuilt their lives, separately at first, and then later, as a couple.

So if you would like to first do your part, in Al-Anon, and then examine the marriage with a better perspective coming from greater self-awareness, then I would try the program for several months and see what happens. Have no expectations of him. This would be about you.

If it were me, I'd tell him to live up there in that attic until you make up your mind how you wish to live your life.
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:47 AM
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First of all, thanks to all who took the time to read this, whether or not they posted.

Hopefulmom, yes, definitely crazy making, ty for letting me know others have this same problem of not being able to tell.

Lexie and English, as usual, you have both been so very helpful. What you both had to say about taking some time to get myself healthier before making a major decision seems right. I will definitely find a sponsor, even if it's only someone temporary, in the next few days.

I talked to him a little last night after I had posted originally, and I agree, he is not serious about stopping at this point. Will do what I can to separate our space.

Doing my best to turn this over and let the HP carry it while I get a rest!
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Old 03-16-2013, 07:43 AM
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Hey honeypig,
I, too, lived within a fog of mystery and mistrust in a 17 year marriage with an A.

for me, the best thing ever is time and space away from the A!!!! The more time and space I get, the more strength and clarity I find within myself. But mine is also abusiveand manipulative. So there ain't much to miss, except the appearance of normality. But that, too, was a cursebecause people would be so jealous of me for myprivileged existence while in reality I was suffering alone.

I love my life away for the questions and suspicions and mistrust.

How about taking a break andgoing on vaca without him for a bit? See what that feels like.

In the meantime, you are asking excellent questions and know that this isall a process, but once clarity hits, such joy!

Have a great weekend!
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:41 AM
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Pippi, thanks for the thoughts! I suspect you're right about the space providing some perspective. There are 2 things that make it a bit more troublesome for me to get that space, one being that I am a medical transcriptionist and work from home, so I don't even get out of the house for work, and the other being that for the first time in our relationship (hell, for the first time in my adult LIFE, and I am 52!) I do not have a full-time job and $$ are more of an issue than they have been in several years.

HOWEVER--w/that said, I am doing what I can within those confines to see a world and a life outside what I have right now. As a matter of fact, I just came back from a short run w/a group at one of the local running stores and feel so much better, at least for now, and I will take anything I can get at this point! I plan to start attending the "fun runs" of the local running club on Wednesday evenings (starts on April 10).

My brother has offered me the use of his house if I need/want, and he tends to be gone a lot, so I may set up a 3-day weekend there soon when he's away and just attend some meetings, read and take long walks. I have been going to 3 Alanon meetings a week, so that's another few days a week I'm with other people and in another place for at least a while. I'll keep looking for other ways to get some space and let the mental/emotional tornado wind down a little.

Putting one foot in front of the other, with many thanks to all here.
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:05 AM
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Let's back up.
He was drinking for years? that you didn't know he was. So he had a mistress as an analogy, and you didn't find out about her, but you were ok with your relationship until you found out.
A couple reflexes are triggered. The first is the feeling of being cheated on. Sneaky business. First reflex...I will CONTROL his behavior with ULTIMATUMS. He immediately violates your demands, and sees the mistress again. You find out.
First lesson--YOU CAN'T CONTROL HIM.
So here comes the big question. If we don't put a P.I. on the guy 24/7, how are we going to know if and when he is doing sneaky business? In your reality--a breathalizer.
To do so would be trying to control him. We have to let go of that.
So what do we do then?
As is often said here, a boundary is for ourselves. We don't even need to share it with the addict, in fact, it is to our benefit if we don't, so that they can't manipulate with that knowledge.
I might try focusing on the behaviors that he exhibits that bother you. You can't nail when he's been drinking, as you know from the past. If you couldn't tell, and you were ok with him, then what is the complaint? You have to find the behaviors that make your relationship dysfunctional, and try to focus on those.
I think the valid complaint here is a lack of honesty. He gets a pass for drinking, because you don't know when he has been, so there hasn't been problems from when he has been drinking, unless you expand upon that...I'm going with what you wrote...obviously there could be things you didn't highlight...and obviously your relationship with him would have been different all this time if he hadn't been drinking throughout it...in ways we can't imagine.
We can't control another person. We can though decide that we have boundaries with honesty and openness in our intimate relationships. That's a matter of respect. If someone is lying to us, they are disrespecting us.
I would go with that angle when speaking to him about it.
Problem is...once again...we can't force a person to be honest...and we can't nail them when they're not sometimes...it sounds like he's really good at gaslighting you...it's up to you to have a boundary about his behaviors that affect you. If you didn't know...how do you know HOW it affected you?
It's a sneaky person's dream to get away with stuff, the person not able to call them out on it, and can't even state how they are affected by it.
I would ask myself "How has his drinking affected me?" to get to the root of what bothers you...currently he's in a great position to say to you--You just want to control me, my drinking didn't affect you since you didn't voice complaints while you THOUGHT I was sober....
I'm brainstorming here on this one...some guesswork definitely involved in my response, clarify as needed....
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:33 AM
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Blueskies, thanks for your insights; again, these are thoughts I would not/could not come up with on my own, and I am grateful for you sharing w/me.

You have put your finger on one of the things I have been struggling with; exactly what AM I unhappy with? And what you had to say about honesty and respect is true, for me.

In regards to his skills at sneaking, here is an example that he told me about: When he would allegedly "go to his meeting", there would always be a few errands he would take care of in town at the same time--pick up dog food, get kerosene for the heater, etc. He would make sure to always do those errands either before or after the time of the meeting (that he did not attend) just in case I would happen to look at the time printed on the receipt and see that he had been at the pet store when he was supposedly at his meeting. It would NEVER in a MILLION YEARS occur to me to check something like that! I am not anywhere in his league when it comes to being sneaky, not a chance in hell....so yes, I am not in control, not one little bit, and it just burns my ass to have to admit that, but I just can't compete, even if it made any kind of sense for me to try to.

Thanks again. I have so much to work on and think about.
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Old 03-16-2013, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by honeypig View Post
In regards to his skills at sneaking, here is an example that he told me about: When he would allegedly "go to his meeting", there would always be a few errands he would take care of in town at the same time--pick up dog food, get kerosene for the heater, etc. He would make sure to always do those errands either before or after the time of the meeting (that he did not attend) just in case I would happen to look at the time printed on the receipt and see that he had been at the pet store when he was supposedly at his meeting. It would NEVER in a MILLION YEARS occur to me to check something like that! I am not anywhere in his league when it comes to being sneaky, not a chance in hell
Honeypig, this made me laugh...what is amazing it the lengths they go to in order to protect their facade, all the while NO ONE ELSE IS PAYING ATTENTION! I mean, who has time to check receipts for the time stamp to verify if it occurred before, during, or after they were supposed to be at an AA meeting? Wow. I am impressed at the lengths he went to, for no reason whatsoever! And I agree with you - my brain doesn't work this way, either.

Also, remember...doing nothing is also doing something. You can do nothing while you wait for more to be revealed.

When in doubt - wait. Best advice I've gotten from others here.

Take good care,
~T
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:06 AM
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honeypig, your welcome.
You WILL GO MAD trying to keep tabs on a person that is better at sneaky than you are as an amateur detective, I know, been there, done that, got the crazy tshirt.
Since it is the bottle, and not another woman...do you know why he was hiding it since it had no great ill affects? What about asking him that question-why he hid it-as a means of opening up the relationship to more honesty?
Another thought...on those hours he was alone in his hobby room...did you enjoy the alone time you received?
My H would go off with his bottle and do his thing, and some of that time I was GLAD for the alone time, and would have been annoyed had he wanted to spend all that time with me. So this alone time was mutually beneficial, yes or no?
Here's a question for you--if there aren't bad consequences with his drinking, why didn't he drink openly?
He's the one that labeled himself as an alcoholic, and not just a person who drinks an acceptable amount. So why did he label himself? I might ask that too...seems there are communication barriers that need to be opened up. I'm not advocating drinking, but he had to label himself as alcoholic for some reason which includes bad consequences. So what are they?
The "we live like roommates" statement from him is something to address too...now there's something you can put your finger on!
Intimacy. The next question is, if status quo you both were content, do you want more intimacy? Either of you? Would more intimacy (physical and emotional) be uncomfortable?
Did you see the relationship as like "roommates"? Were you happy with that?
You don't have to answer all this here, it's your private life, but they are questions for yourself and then what you want to share.
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:47 AM
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Tuffgirl, thanks for bringing a little laugh to all this--I guess I didn't think about it that way, but it IS kind of funny....and thanks for the advice to go slow.

Blueskies, I do not mind at all that he spends the amount of time he does on his hobby. He is genuinely good at it, wins awards, and I have my own interests. I did actually ask him last night why he hid his drinking if he didn't (and apparently still doesn't) view it as a problem. The answer was "Because YOU thought it was bad..."

The intimacy issue is a big one also. He routinely did not listen to/remember virtually anything I said, would not remember things we did together, almost seemed as if he didn't live in the same house after a few years just b/c of how unfamiliar he seemed w/so many things. (Due to how I kind of took over things so they would be done "my way"?) When I complained about not being heard, I was told that whatever I had said was was "not important enough to commit to memory." This has been ongoing for all but the first few years of us being together. He would be very thoughtful in some ways, (for instance, if I was heading out for a long run on a Sunday AM, he would be very solicitous about did I have the phone, did I have enough water, etc.) but in the day-to-day talking/listening/communicating way, there was really nothing. Physical intimacy has been fading ever since the first time I knew I had been systematically lied to, and I feel it has faded from both sides more or less equally. I do not know his side for sure, tho.

Good questions, to be pursued in more depth in my journal. Thank you.
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Old 03-16-2013, 12:36 PM
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Then I'd say, please drink out in the open so that there is more honesty between us. There. Done. More will be revealed as to how much his drinking affects your lives. It is odd though, that he labeled himself as a recovering alcoholic when you met and now it is turned around to he hid that because "you thought it was bad"....hmmm?

Not listening, forgetting, or not committing to memory ARE consequences of drinking, and i can attest that the sober person remembers the conversation with far more accurate detail. Have you ever had the exact same conversation over the course of a day, several times, with him acting as if you never had the conversation before? That's something that heavy drinkers do.
But, that said, that doesn't mean that he simply CHOOSES to not listen, commit to memory, etc. In otherwords, this bad listening may be related to drinking, may be a choice of his, or a combination.
A bad memory is a side effect of drinking, for all, alcoholic, or not.

Tying physical intimacy to emotional intimacy--not separating or compartmentalizing them--seems healthy to me, even if he didn't like the results. Explaining to him how you don't separate physical intimacy from emotional intimacy and that the two go hand in hand might give him insight if he is the type that can compartmentalize. This has to be explained to him without accusation, or he gets defensive, and there are then no lightbulb moments. Otherwise you could receive the common "you withheld sex as a punishment" response, which gets the marriage nowhere.
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:12 PM
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I don't know that asking him to drink in the open will change anything. I've had that conversation with my DH, told him I know, he doesn't have to hide, etc. He still went about hiding it. And yes yes yes on sober people remembering conversations. My DH has a fantastic memory, and yet while drinking, his memory is garbled and at times nonexistent. As for the intimacy thing - I told my DH that I wasn't "withholding" intimacy, it's not a punishment. I just don't feel like sleeping with someone who isn't my husband, and it took a long time for us to grow this far apart, and it will take time (and sobriety and recovery and trust building) for us to grow together again.
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Old 03-16-2013, 01:37 PM
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Posts: 11,478
Cecilia, I have had the same lack of success as you w/asking for things to be done openly. As LexieCat said above, the hiding is part of the disease.

Thank you so much for sharing about your intimacy situation. I especially like what you said about how it had taken a long time to grow so far apart and how it will take a long time to grow close again. I feel like that is it in a nutshell.
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